Prison time start upon /cuff

[alexalex303]

Hello team

There have been a number of changes recently that were aimed at mending certain gameplay inconveniences and pain points. I believe that it's time to address a very common complaint by criminal roleplayers, specifically, that they are left on scenes during certain roleplay for long periods of time, in a state that they do not consider to be active roleplay. This sometimes also results in complaints when in-depth investigative roleplay happens such as GSR, fingerprinting and whatnot.

I'm sure that many law enforcement roleplayers heard the phrase "just start my time".

I propose a simple compromise, a person's prison time starts as soon as the /cuff command is applied against them successfully. This means that players that are arrested should have no OOC motivations for wanting to speed up the roleplay, and might instead provide a more meaningful roleplay experience to the officers, as extending the scene effectively means less time in prison. This means that players officers will not receive OOC pressure to speed up a scene and can instead focus on making it more immersive and realistic.

I do not see any downsides but I am open to different opinions. This would not apply to jail sentences because they are very short and would effectively cease to exist.

Just to get ahead of any potential memes, my criminal character has been to prison once in the past six months, this is not a suggestion that I would personally benefit from.

[Hector2Fingers]

+1 but I see some potential issues.

Biggest issue with this suggestion is that 90-95% of players do not have any pending charges on them when the /cuff command is executed.  Maybe what could be added instead is /startprison which could be executed after the first charge is added.

That way, PD/SD could continue their RP/investigations, but the player could have a single charge applied and time started (ex: Evading) while GSR, fingerprinting, etc, are happening.

I also could potentially see this as an opportunity for those who like to continually run on foot while cuffed after 3-4 times tazed to continue those actions or make them even more egregious.  Staff may need to make those rules more clear so they're not abused, IMO.

Potentially, maybe this could be up to PD/SD discretion depending on the quality of RP similar to the way death rp used to work?

[alexalex303]

2 minutes ago, Hector2Fingers said:

Biggest issue with this suggestion is that 90-95% of players do not have any pending charges on them when the /cuff command is executed.  Maybe what could be added instead is /startprison which could be executed after the first charge is added.

There is no requirement for them to have a charge; the script could simply count the time elapsed between /cuff and /prison and remove it from the sentence. 

[Oli]

+1

Any scene that involves PD being shot and/or 5+ criminals injured will usually take no less than 1 hour for cops to be done with cleaning up the scene, making us criminals just sit there afk waiting for this hour to finish, avoiding doing anything that may delay our transportation to DOC so we can start our jtime, this includes having a chat even as then we'll be having them chat back to us instead of finishing up the scene.

[Waffle0]

+1

This is especially good for scenes that have a lot of criminals evolved, as they can feel like that they have been left in the dark for 30 minutes then they have to wait for a massive convoy, then to got to prison. So with the implementation of this it would make the criminal(s) enjoy the RP more, as there wouldn't be a downside to a length RP with PS/SD.

[Freclan]

I think the premise of this is coming from a place of good intentions however people who are arrested do have an opportunity to escape from custody whilst on the way to DOC, how would this be counteracted? Just yesterday we had a suspect run from DOC whilst being transported there, this would effectively allow them to serve their time without actually being in DOC.

[Jett_J]

-1,

What happens when they get broken out and never go to jail but now their time is going despite never going to jail?

There are also some people that make their arrest take as long as they possibly can by ignoring taser effects and constantly running. Even if you RP grabbing them when cuffed they will try to constantly RP breaking out of your hold after the taser effects wear off. Yes we can report it but then we are in an admin sit while and staff member lectures them over RP standards.

The majority of the arrests don't require the suspect to sit in the back of the car without being engaged through RP for extended periods of time.

If that does happen it's almost certain because it was a large scale situation where multiple people were injured from a shootout. In these cases both sides are suffering. The cops have to organize the cleanup and impounding of all these vehicles and people left from the shooting which nobody truly enjoys, and the suspect SOMETIMES has to wait the same time in the back of the cruiser depending on how many units are available.

If the cops are better organized and have resources, they should be able to have one unit transport the suspects ahead of time unless they are high value transports but that's a part of the IC consequences if the crime was big enough to constitute that.

I don't think anybody likes having to make a scene take a long time when most of that time is waiting for MD to treat a bunch of people, cleaning up bodies, getting vehicles ready for impound, etc.. but it's a part of the gig for both sides.

I think reducing jail times is fine but I don't think starting their time before being booked is the way to go about it.

 

[alexalex303]

22 minutes ago, Freclan said:

I think the premise of this is coming from a place of good intentions however people who are arrested do have an opportunity to escape from custody whilst on the way to DOC, how would this be counteracted? Just yesterday we had a suspect run from DOC whilst being transported there, this would effectively allow them to serve their time without actually being in DOC.

The most simple solution is that if they become uncuffed, it no longer counts as prison time; Escaping custody is also very rare, and the first thing people do is remove their cuffs so that they can turn their phone off, as you can not do this while cuffed. I do understand some abuse can happen with people staying cuffed on purpose, but, end of the day, they are still cuffed and unable to do most things in the server (drive, eat, drink, use phone, etc)

Edited December 11, 2023 by alexalex303

[dRose22]

+1 

[Bala]

I don't support this, for a few of reasons.

• We have an entire faction on the server dedicated to managing a player's prison time on this server. While we've made concessions in terms of prison time to benefit the criminals of the server, it's important that DOC aren't marginalised and I think further reductions of prison time begin to encroach on that.
   
• A one-size fits all approach to the arrest procedure just doesn't run, because as you will know from your own experiences, every person you arrest is different. You will get some that as you explained, will say "just take me to jail", like this is single-player and they're trying to skip a cutscene and you will get some that drag out the process so much, just to irritate those arresting them. 
  
  I personally don't think that we should be creating an environment where hitting fast forward on RP or at the other end of the spectrum, dragging things out unnecessarily is rewarded. If people have to go suddenly, it is what it is and we can skip but if you are skipping because you can't be bothered to interact, fuck you, go play GTA Online. If you're dragging the RP out to go to prison, then you are just shafting yourself and the argument of "sooner you are in, sooner you are out" applies. Take that away and people will abuse it to annoy cops arresting them because they know their time is ticking down.

I'm not disliking this for cop bias, I like the OOC prison time changes for example but this just doesn't work because of the player mentalities we have unfortunately.

[DaddyShrood]

-1 

 

A fairly major flaw that comes to mind with this is what happens if someone is released while being transported to DOC, where do they go? 

 

It also would look pretty shoddy from a server which prides itself on realistic RP. Realistically your sentence starts in the prison, not at the side of the road.

[Clank]

What is stopping someone from just consistently running away while in handcuffs to run down the prison time?

[Dimja]

1 hour ago, Clank said:

What is stopping someone from just consistently running away while in handcuffs to run down the prison time?

The fact that in cuffs, you are able to do less than when you are sitting in DOC.

[onlystorming]

I like the idea of this suggestion but there are many issues with implementing it in a way that works, which is why I can't say +1/-1.

I can't count how many times I'll have that one person just attempt to run all the time, every time, before they actually make it to DOC just to prolong the whole transportation progress after they have been tazed or cuffed. This is why when people are caught I encourage them just to own up to the crime as it makes the whole trip from the scene to DOC so much quicker if they really wish it to be that way.

If you were to put this suggestion into play, from the moment you cuff somebody and they start running around like a wallop, doing the usual: resisting, getting tazed about five times over, getting back up to kick you and all the rest, they're just running down their time in DOC, which consequentially eliminates the whole point of crime scene rp and catching them at all, really. By the time you're done with all that, you'll have about 20 minutes of prison time left since most of this all happens in cuffs and never leads to them being taken off at any point unless you successfully escape and have somebody pick you up. If we're going to be honest, most of the time this is what an average arrest with a criminal looks like.

Taking that into consideration, this later has a ripple effect on the guards working in DOC who experience pretty much almost the same thing but enclosed in a 5x5 boxed up building after PD hands the suspect(s) over, so there is no real "punishment" because you can just run around annoying the fuck out of everybody until your time is done or almost out limiting the interactions that DOC can have.

Either way, most of the time on a scene, there is one suspect per unit/officer and once the investigation is done with the criminal that you are currently with, you're cleared to transport which then comes back to the point I always make about just admitting what you've done if you're really rearing to go to DOC and "just start your time". To me, I don't like to hear that phrase being said due to the fact most of the time the crim has already got their half an hour of fun whether its evading or shooting, and to rush a cop trying to do the same is just a bit unfair.

This suggestion is mainly tailored towards larger and more complicated scenes such as a shootout that will later involve multiple people being arrested and transported together in a group, which is fine, but it just simply doesn't work in an every day arrest situation. Personally, whilst playing on my crim, on bigger scenes like this when all of PD are getting sorted out and concluding evidence and charges or impounding cars, I take this as a down time to chill from the whole situation and catch a break. I don't really see it as a negative thing seeing as both sides get their opportunity to have an experience, but I definietely do understand how others just want it over and done with when they're working with a timeframe because they need to get off for work or whatever they need to do the next day and just want to play the game.

My biggest advice for this kind of thing is to just work with the cops not against them when you've already been caught, because we all know that you're going to DOC one way or another unless by some chance your escape plan works or you want to appeal the charges. If you desperately need to get off the game, then this kind of thing can very easily be sorted out between players without an issue if you've done your part in making the rp a good experience for both sides.

[Ash]

What about when they’re cuffed and inside a police vehicle it contributes some “served time”, at least mitigating arguably the least-roleplay part of being arrested, that seems like a decent middle ground.

Like maybe the time served isn’t 1:1 and also doesn’t take off your last hour (like being offline)

Edited December 12, 2023 by Ash

[Fancyme]

+1 system is used on other servers ive played and has no downsides, makes the sitting around waiting less of a pain

[Fancyme]

19 hours ago, Bala said:

A one-size fits all approach to the arrest procedure just doesn't run, because as you will know from your own experiences, every person you arrest is different. You will get some that as you explained, will say "just take me to jail", like this is single-player and they're trying to skip a cutscene and you will get some that drag out the process so much, just to irritate those arresting them. 

One server allows the arresting officer to decide if they would like to reduce time. I think this would combat the problem of people purposely wasting time. I believe they can only reduce up to 1 hour, if that were to be implemented a max sentence would still allow 2 hours in DOC and if you implement a 1 hour at least serving time to that just like the offline system then I believe it fixes those issues. If someone ones to waste time etc they wont get any time off, if someone gives no problems and is genuinely just waiting then give them the time off they sat around for. Realistically, it will not affect an officer if someone is let out a little bit early due to having to wait, just a nice QOL for criminals.

[Harveyyy]

Maybe deduct the time spent starting from /cuff to /prison? This will literally not affect LEOs, it's a crim-only feature. At the end of the day, why would LEOs care about your prison sentence? They won't, or, shouldn't.

PS. Respectfully, if you never played crim before regularly, you will never understand. I'm talking about being part of a street gang not some low tier criminal group.

[Harveyyy]

5 hours ago, Clank said:

What is stopping someone from just consistently running away while in handcuffs to run down the prison time?

More charges (resisting arrest, failure to comply, etc.)?

[Bala]

1 hour ago, Fancyme said:

One server allows the arresting officer to decide if they would like to reduce time. I think this would combat the problem of people purposely wasting time. I believe they can only reduce up to 1 hour, if that were to be implemented a max sentence would still allow 2 hours in DOC and if you implement a 1 hour at least serving time to that just like the offline system then I believe it fixes those issues. If someone ones to waste time etc they wont get any time off, if someone gives no problems and is genuinely just waiting then give them the time off they sat around for. Realistically, it will not affect an officer if someone is let out a little bit early due to having to wait, just a nice QOL for criminals.

We used to have discretion on charges. Then we had a court system. 

People just gave reductions to people they liked, the system was flawed in that respect.

[onlystorming]

1 hour ago, Harveyyy said:

Maybe deduct the time spent starting from /cuff to /prison? This will literally not affect LEOs, it's a crim-only feature. At the end of the day, why would LEOs care about your prison sentence? They won't, or, shouldn't.

PD/SD doesn’t, it’ll be DOC missing out that will care since they’ll have nobody to rp with.

The idea about deducting prison time slowly upon charges being placed, as long as you’re sat within the cruiser is reasonable, and if possible to be done, I’ll give this a suggestion a +1.

[alexalex303]

Just now, onlystorming said:

PD/SD doesn’t, it’ll be DOC missing out that will care since they’ll have nobody to rp with.

That only works in a vacuum that discounts human beings and their feelings.

Logically, which person is more likely to provide better RP to DOC?

a) person that spent 1 hour on a scene, got more and more annoyed about "wasted time", argued with law enforcement about sentence starting delay and feeling like he was robbed and sentenced to extra time or

b) person that got a prison time reduction by simply roleplaying with law enforcement in an amicable manner

You could make the prison time infinite, and DOC would still not receive good roleplay unless people getting there feel that they arrived there in a fair way. Feeling wronged or angry is not conducive to good roleplay.

In a perfect world, every player on the server would put aside their feelings and keep themselves immersed in their characters all the time, but this is not a perfect world and we should make changes to improve the reality of the situation. 

[onlystorming]

39 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

That only works in a vacuum that discounts human beings and their feelings.

Logically, which person is more likely to provide better RP to DOC?

a) person that spent 1 hour on a scene, got more and more annoyed about "wasted time", argued with law enforcement about sentence starting delay and feeling like he was robbed and sentenced to extra time or

b) person that got a prison time reduction by simply roleplaying with law enforcement in an amicable manner

You could make the prison time infinite, and DOC would still not receive good roleplay unless people getting there feel that they arrived there in a fair way. Feeling wronged or angry is not conducive to good roleplay.

In a perfect world, every player on the server would put aside their feelings and keep themselves immersed in their characters all the time, but this is not a perfect world and we should make changes to improve the reality of the situation. 

This statement works like a customer service situation, you get food and it’s cold and instead of blaming the chef you blame the waiter.

Nobody is going to be happy about going to prison so I don’t understand what the point of this response was. I’m saying DOC needs people for interaction regardless of whether it’s an angry one or a calm one. Any interaction is rp because it’s normal for a crim to be angry that they’re going to prison? I’m not saying a crim has to be shitting rainbows while walking through the gates, because I’ve never been happy about going to prison on my crim either.

Time at DOC has already been lowered and people still want to go lower. So essentially people want to run around like it’s battle royale and spend 5 minutes in jail.

I already said I support the suggestion as long as it doesn’t evolve into a shit show for the rest of the server. If you can come up with a way that doesn’t have major flaws, what you have suggested sounds perfectly fine to me.

Edited December 12, 2023 by onlystorming

[Quietthecutie]

+1

An interesting one. Currently Leaning on its benefits outweighing its negatives.

 

7 hours ago, Clank said:

What is stopping someone from just consistently running away while in handcuffs to run down the prison time?

What's stopping you putting them in a cruiser to stop them from doing this? also last I checked just running around ignoring tasers or ignoring being held at gunpoint by LEOs is NRP/FRP. we already have rules in place to stop this from happening to an unreasonable extent.

20 hours ago, DaddyShrood said:

A fairly major flaw that comes to mind with this is what happens if someone is released while being transported to DOC, where do they go? 

This "fairly major flaw" should never occur. if someone has that few charges why would it take over an hour to get them to DOC? typically its the larger scenes such as shootouts etc where the criminal would be stuck in the back of the cruiser awaiting cleanup for an extended period. in these scenarios the crims looking at around 2-3 hours in the can. 

20 hours ago, DaddyShrood said:

It also would look pretty shoddy from a server which prides itself on realistic RP. Realistically your sentence starts in the prison, not at the side of the road.

 

You've never heard of "time already served?"

If its going to take LEOs an in game year to clear up a scene and get a crim inside DOC, I think the suggestion is perfectly reasonable.

22 hours ago, Bala said:

We have an entire faction on the server dedicated to managing a player's prison time on this server. While we've made concessions in terms of prison time to benefit the criminals of the server, it's important that DOC aren't marginalised and I think further reductions of prison time begin to encroach on that.

 

You're right, we do. And we shouldn't seek to marginalise our brothers/sisters in green. However I find the argument that longer prison sentences automatically means better quality RP for DOC is flawed. RP quality and creativity rests with the individual player. some criminals really engage with DOC and create fun and interesting RP opportunities that DOC can participate in, and others run around just doing laundry, not interacting with anyone or even just afk/log as soon as their jtime starts. The length of their sentence has little to no bearing on this. You could just as easily make the argument that if sentences were shorter, criminals would be more encouraged to stay RP active within DOC and engage, rather than just mentally check out for 3 hours.

[Bala]

More time in prison, means more potential for something to happen. 
I'm not really sure how many more concessions you people want when it comes time to face the music, honestly. 

You can serve the 10 minutes it takes to get you processed, because I know exactly how this is going to go. Someone is going to be all nice and compliant until the cuffs are on, then they're gunna drag their feet to be OOCly annoying because they know their time is counting down.

If you want to go to jail within a reasonable window of time, answer the /dos you are being asked in a timely fashion, don't resist, don't go into /b whinging and you'll be wearing orange before you can say where the stamps at.

People want realism when it suits their suggestion, otherwise convenient details go out the window.

If you wanna be making suggestions about time locked up, fuckin make like 20 minute charges and above prison so people are idle in jail at Faction HQs for 45 minutes. Something that actually matters, not getting 10 minutes off your sentence in a way that benefits you to be a goober.