Give S.W.A.T and SED less AP

[TreytenMoon]

I was in a shootout with an SED officer last night and I feel as the SED officer has WAY TOO MUCH armor. They told me they have 200 AP armor. During this shootout I hit 4 or 5 headshots on the same officer and they told me that they weren't even that low on health. I am suggesting giving normal officers 50 AP without a vest, 100 AP with a vest, and give S.W.A.T and SED 150 AP. I believe 150 AP will be a significant amount of armor to fight criminals because the MAX AP criminals can buy is 100 AP. Even then, a lot of criminals will not bring out 100 AP to fight police because they know the chances of them winning are very low. Here is the clip of me shooting the officer just to put this in perspective. I hit 4-5 headshots with a .50 at point blank range. In my opinion, this officer should have been injured. https://streamable.com/81kqre Let me know your thoughts on this!

[Requiem]

-1

Speaking from experience as a long time SWAT member, I can tell you that following the gun update, I have been getting melted in gun fights with 150 AP. I had a gun fight recently where I went down in 3 hits with full HP and 150 AP. Not 100% certain what i was shot with. Also, keep in mind crims don't even have AP rounds yet, which will likely melt through armor even more. 

Not sure about SED's policies, but SWAT almost always used 150 AP as it is. We rarely ever use the 200 AP variant unless we know for certain we are about to go into World War 3. 

[SquirtleSquad]

In my opinion it makes absolutely zero sense for LEO's of specific divisions to not have heavy armor or high AP. This is a division of highly trained, with niche'd work, aimed at helping deal with very tough situations. To say that they should be bound to 50AP to 100AP is absurd in my opinion. Go look at anything LAPD, which LSPD is based off of, and look at anything SWAT related within them. They are not wearing thin kevlar. They are heavily geared. They are set up to deal with any different type of ammo variations that exist in the world. These are not GOB Officers by primary assignment.

When they are called on scene to deal with a situation, and are geared up, that's because shit is about to go down, or shit is going down. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by SquirtleSquad

[TheCactus]

On 10/1/2023 at 5:26 PM, TreytenMoon said:

I was in a shootout with an SED officer last night and I feel as the SED officer has WAY TOO MUCH armor. They told me they have 200 AP armor. During this shootout I hit 4 or 5 headshots on the same officer and they told me that they weren't even that low on health. I am suggesting giving normal officers 50 AP without a vest, 100 AP with a vest, and give S.W.A.T and SED 150 AP. I believe 150 AP will be a significant amount of armor to fight criminals because the MAX AP criminals can buy is 100 AP. Even then, a lot of criminals will not bring out 100 AP to fight police because they know the chances of them winning are very low. Here is the clip of me shooting the officer just to put this in perspective. I hit 4-5 headshots with a .50 at point blank range. In my opinion, this officer should have been injured. https://streamable.com/81kqre Let me know your thoughts on this!

Maybe because you are not meant to fight them with your pistol when they are geared up like that.. You can get better guns that go through their armor while they can't do much if you have 100 ap. You should run from swat and fight only when you have the upper hand with good guns, armor and a plan. That video of yours is the prime example of why you should run when all you got is a gun.

Edited October 2, 2023 by TheCactus

[RAttlesnake7473]

i’m iffy on this one. Per your clip the fact that you were even in that situation is crazy. There you should’ve surrendered as you just face more jail time from shooting him with a 0% chance of winning. 200ap is crazy but they are heavy metro units. It really depends on the situation if i were to agree/disagree on the amount of armor they have. In this one particularly i dont think he should have 200ap for a clothing store robbery but at the same time i dont expect them to quick swap a vest at their vehicle

[DoubleA]

Ive been an advocate for AP changes for a very long time, and have had a few very informative changes that could prove to be nice.

 

I think the biggest thing is yes, criminals will get AP rounds eventually and it will be broken, and all LEOs will use the heavier armor, but the modifier for health(not armor) will be a lot less. As someone who used to be SWAT and SED there are situations that they really should have armor, bank robberies, hostage situations, etc, they should be geared up and I am fully okay with that. I think its not that the armor needs to change I think that internal policies need to be adjusted to make it so LEOs cant roll around with very heavy armor and heavy weapons 24/7, as a lot of people who join these factions are joining because they are tired of fighting cops, you know the saying if you cat beat em, join em.

 

+1 that I think 150 armor should be the MAX allowed only on special occations, -1 tho because you did get smoked with a .50 inside a store and you cant really complain when you put yourself into that situation

[Chris_]

+/-1 As much as It would be awesome to be on "Even" ground with police and them only being able to wear 100 AP would make that happen. But I'm sorry, any criminal who can shoot straight, get into a decent position with a rifle and 100 AP themselves. Would destroy police. I've come to the conclusion myself that fighting cops on this server is a guaranteed loss unless its 5am. EVEN IF YOU DO WIN. You Don't. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from fighting cops except -5 hours of your life and -60k in your bank when your gun, armor and fines are all taken. Even if Cops lose they lose close to nothing. As I played PD before, dying is an excuse to take a 30 min break from the computer eat something. Log back in, jog back to MRPD. /fl grab a new vest and gun and spawn a new cruiser and go about your day like nothing happened. This is why I believe so many people enjoy Legal RP so much more then crim. There is 0 stress or worry in the world except paperwork . Don't mind my lil rant about Legal v Crim RP LOL anyways...

Overall If you are fighting the police I pray you got a good Netflix series in the queue.

 

13 hours ago, SquirtleSquad said:

When they are called on scene to deal with a situation, and are geared up, that's because shit is about to go down, or shit is going down. 

Except SED just be patrolling in their "ACTIVE" 200 AP Armor sometimes and I ain't tryna hear anyone say its not true   

11 hours ago, TheCactus said:

You can get better guns that go through their armor while they can't do much if you have 100 ap.

Fill me in on where I can obtain these weapons and ammo. All I got access to is tracers and they don't even work

11 hours ago, TheCactus said:

You should run from swat and fight only when you have the upper hand with good guns, armor and a plan.

This will never happen. Criminals do not ride around prepared to fight police. So you only ever run from police. Which I think is perfectly fine. 

[ArcAngel]

Show me, in what world, in the US (Not South of the border), do criminals with heavy weapons, over power the police when confronted. 

They don't. That's why you have to be smart about where/when/what you're doing as a criminal. Reducing AP does not make sense imo. (My opinion only). Criminals IRL shoot when cornered and flee at the first opportunity to protect their lives and their stuff. Rarely as a grudge and definitely not to shout "GG guys" whilst laying on the floor.

If you have any further suggestions about how LEO can improve your experience, I'm always happy to listen however!

[pasha9]

-1 after this new gun update everything seems to be fine, i’ve fought them many times they get laid down pretty quick no kizzy.

 

Only thing that isn’t fair is shooting snipers from the heli

[jasonX]

+1 i agree with pasha, whoever can't kill a cop JUST GET better i don't see any problem with ap you just need to be smart thats it not run in the open then say ap so op, i don't really see any issue with ap, cause if its gonna be normal ap like criminal ap everyone will start fighting cops wich its not realistic to fight cops always and for not something worth it this is my opinion (not trolling).and i would like to mention that if you hit headshots it goes straight to health.

[DoubleA]

1 hour ago, ArcAngel said:

Show me, in what world, in the US (Not South of the border), do criminals with heavy weapons, over power the police when confronted. 

They don't. That's why you have to be smart about where/when/what you're doing as a criminal. Reducing AP does not make sense imo. (My opinion only). Criminals IRL shoot when cornered and flee at the first opportunity to protect their lives and their stuff. Rarely as a grudge and definitely not to shout "GG guys" whilst laying on the floor.

If you have any further suggestions about how LEO can improve your experience, I'm always happy to listen however!

as much as i love and adore you i dont think people want to overpower cops. And i will say one thing, this is a video game, i am not saying criminals should come out on top every fight but with the amount of grinding that we are forced to do to afford one of those guns then to get forced to use it (or just go down with it and get arrested... 9/10 crims wouldnt) you could probably see why people are upset about it. I think (if you would be able to organize) a meeting between faction leaders/high command members of gangs and high command of LEOs plus head admins around to talk through some things that might be left in the dark or misconstued! Armor isnt the big thing that is hurting things tho - my Dms are always open if youd like to hear a rant LMAO

[ArcAngel]

1 hour ago, DoubleA said:

as much as i love and adore you i dont think people want to overpower cops. And i will say one thing, this is a video game, i am not saying criminals should come out on top every fight but with the amount of grinding that we are forced to do to afford one of those guns then to get forced to use it (or just go down with it and get arrested... 9/10 crims wouldnt) you could probably see why people are upset about it. I think (if you would be able to organize) a meeting between faction leaders/high command members of gangs and high command of LEOs plus head admins around to talk through some things that might be left in the dark or misconstued! Armor isnt the big thing that is hurting things tho - my Dms are always open if youd like to hear a rant LMAO

PD doesn't 'win' every fight. Since the gun update especially, I have found multiple situations where LEO's have been completely wiped. There was a situation just 2 nights ago in which the entirety of SD was wiped, and this was during peak hours, not at 4am (when it usually happens). Criminals want/choose to play criminal characters, this includes wanting to not die and not get caught. If they stay and try to wipe out officers, they will die, it's natural selection and how it goes. Gather your stuff, leave with your life, think before you take action, don't make stupid decisions. 
There are so many criminals that I have personally seen that RARELY get caught because they are smart.

With regards to talks about improvements. My DM's are open. So-long as I'm sent constructive criticism, I'll always take it into consideration and bring it up where appropriate.

[TheCactus]

4 hours ago, Chris_ said:

Fill me in on where I can obtain these weapons and ammo. All I got access to is tracers and they don't even work

IC info
 

Quote

This will never happen. Criminals do not ride around prepared to fight police. So you only ever run from police. Which I think is perfectly fine. 

I've seen it happen. It was a problem with D6 and Royals so..

[SquirtleSquad]

The only piece that I am going to add here, and while not relevant to the topic but more so a common phrasing is, stop saying "And i will say one thing, this is a video game,". These topics always turn from "it's not realistic that X should be able to go around with Y" all the time as it's unrealistic, then on the flip side say "this is a video game."

We know it's a video game, however this is a strawman argument, and it's rather tiring. The mentality of RP for thee, but not for me is just a fallback on there are good valid points brought up, alas I still don't agree, so lets remind people it's a video game. LEO pours their hearts into their characters. We enjoy the legal side of the RP. Some people see different paths for their preferred RP, like being a deployed tactical response unit for dangerous scenes. As @ArcAngel has stated, if you want to pick fights with a faction that realistically should be coming out on top, you need to be smart about your tactics then.

Defaulting to the "its a video game" argument, and others saying "well if LEO dies they can just log off for 30 minutes, and come back and fspawn a car, fl new weapons and armor and continue on with their day." No man, not always. We need to check in fchat if we can respond to X due to NLR. We get to sit there and listen to radio calls for back up as units are getting melted. We get to think up some lame excuse or ignore radio because NLR'd. Trust me, just because we can't lose assets, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt us. We're not robots guys.

This was a slight tangent, but I wanted to address this, as it is so commonly said on the daily when it's X vs LEO.

[Jett_J]

You can melt someone in 200 AP if you coordinate your attack and it's really easy.

As criminal players, you have the advantage of choosing when, where, and how to fight. Police try their best to respond to what you do.

If you aren't using that advantage, then GG. That clip is an example of not having any plan and shooting just to shoot.

Some factions know how to work together to set up attacks where they are the ones in control and often times they are successful.

You are the one who decides if the police shoot at you so it's up to you to decide if it's worth biting the bullet and giving yourself up in exchange for less prison time and fines.

The problem is most people will refuse to give themselves up if they have a gun because they always want to go out guns blazing even with a 0% chance of winning.

200 AP is not something SED uses at all times. We'll use it if we are going into a situation we know is going to be a large scale shootout or for other operations such as warrant hunts, shipments etc... With that being said if we have to respond to something else when we already have our 200 AP on, we're not gonna take it off and replace it with a lower AP vest for that situation since it delays our response time.

 

[DoubleA]

3 hours ago, SquirtleSquad said:

Defaulting to the "its a video game" argument, and others saying "well if LEO dies they can just log off for 30 minutes, and come back and fspawn a car, fl new weapons and armor and continue on with their day." No man, not always. We need to check in fchat if we can respond to X due to NLR. We get to sit there and listen to radio calls for back up as units are getting melted. We get to think up some lame excuse or ignore radio because NLR'd. Trust me, just because we can't lose assets, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt us. We're not robots guys.

I think this needs to be taken into consideration for both sides. People get it, you’re playing the game too, but what people get tilted at is LEOs die, they don’t lose guns, money, time, etc. after that situation is over they can get back on duty and get things back going like nothing happened, minus maybe some shame of dying which everyone shares, but with really not much downside. 
 

If more people on the LEO side saw this as more of a game and reality can be seen of it took this person a while to grind to get this, I see why they’re upset, if charges were stacked less, you know the 15-20 minute charges that get tossed in cause why not, (other than the dickheads who deserve it by opening their mouth.. sometimes me included) and people weren’t so petty about reporting every time they die, I really don’t think these threads would pop up so much, crim vs Leo shouldn’t be a battle of one side is better it should be how do we make it fun for each other, no?

 

did I just tangent? Yes. Did it work, absolutely.

[DoubleA]

3 hours ago, Jett_J said:

You can melt someone in 200 AP if you coordinate your attack and it's really easy.

Last thing ill say on this thread, the point is we shouldnt have to, yeah you coordinate your attack on one, but when youre zurged by 10 of them youre basically D.O.N.E fucked

[DaddyShrood]

3 minutes ago, DoubleA said:

Last thing ill say on this thread, the point is we shouldnt have to, yeah you coordinate your attack on one, but when youre zurged by 10 of them youre basically D.O.N.E fucked

Don't fight cops then? This is RP and not a CSGO deathmatching server.

[DoubleA]

5 minutes ago, DaddyShrood said:

Don't fight cops then? This is RP and not a CSGO deathmatching server.

Id like not to! Ill just sit in my apartment all day if i dont want to deal with them, cause thats what its come to recently

[DaddyShrood]

12 minutes ago, DoubleA said:

Id like not to! Ill just sit in my apartment all day if i dont want to deal with them, cause thats what its come to recently

Ultimately though, if you're gonna rp as a criminal you have to be prepared for the police to go after you, it's the nature of the beast. You can't then complain when the police attempt to suppress you or your gang's activities.

[DoubleA]

2 minutes ago, DaddyShrood said:

Ultimately though, if you're gonna rp as a criminal you have to be prepared for the police to go after you, it's the nature of the beast. You can't then complain when the police attempt to suppress you or your gang's activities.

Your viewpoint is so skewed, nobody is complaining that leos are a thing and they arrest us, boo hoo, the issue is the sway of things right now, why do you think criminals arent playing right now and playing more on their legal alts? Because they get free guns and dont lose anything when they die! Reduce the amount of that sway, make the server fun for everyone playing (at this point embrace the cops vs crims instead of denying it) and these little threads will start to be less hostile, less of them will be around, etc. Youre talking to someone who played PD/SD for over 2 years, I see it from both sides, Im coming from a place of strength, not replying to these threads like you are trying to shut down a suggestion.

[Fancyme]

I've had a few run ins with the good old SD/PD and to be fair to them I rarely see the 200AP. Good positioning and coordination is usually enough to get the PD/SD on scene down and it's usually pretty quickly. The only thing frustrating is snipers due to the range of bullets not registering but I guess if they are that far anyways you aren't going to hit them but yeah as pasha said sniping from heli's is a little nutz

[Herbo]

-1

With the new weapon update everything is EXTREMELY cheap, as of right now LEOs are constantly in situations where we're arresting people with heavies weapons like Special Carbines, Pump Shotguns, AKs, etc. Those weapons can absolutely MELT people with 200 AP when used correctly. Additionally, while crims do not have a real "advantage" they have the advantage of being able to be the initiatiors. In probably 90% of situations, the criminals will be the ones that have the ability to shoot first due to SD & PD internal policies. This is a major advantage and when criminals will actually use their brains and use this advantage, it can work in their advantage and make them "win" the situations. This has been shown numerous times where PD & SD get wiped and/or lose the suspects when they fire shots first and use this advantage.

Along with that, the average "skill level" when it comes to shooting from your member of PD/SD to the crims is a pretty big gap. When crims will use their brains and properly setup and not just go at with the plan of "Fuck it I'm getting arrested lets shoot at them" they can take out multiple units with a simple Suppressed .50. I've been in numerous shootouts when I've had access 200 AP and had it on as well as situations where I've had on the standard 100 AP. I've gotten absolutely melted in all of these. The average criminals will pull out better "strategies" then LEOs 9 times out of 10 making the 200 AP they have essentially useless.

The clip that was posted is a VERY POOR example to try and get 200 AP changed. You had an active warrant and we were on a Warrant Hunt which is one of the few cases that SED 200 AP is authorized, most times they're in 150 AP which is standard and makes sense for a highly trained tactical unit to be using. You decided to back yourself up into a corner with 5 different deputies on you, all with AT LEAST 100 AP and Heavy Weapons. All of the complaints that come from 200 AP is because you put yourself into a stupid situation you had 0% chance of winning and then decided to blame it on "200 AP". 

TL;DR ; Use your brains, stop going into situations and just deciding to shoot because you're going to get arrested. Use your brain and plan out setups and the perfect time to shoot and you'll see that 200 AP isn't as big of a deal as you make it out to be.

[Victor Einhart]

If you had stayed in cover and not stepped out into gunfire, you probably could have killed every single one of those officers.

Press Q to take cover. It's overpowered.

[Harveyyy]

I play legal (SD) and crim (CSB) and this is my personal opinion:

Honestly, it's not about the AP, it's about you making this really bad decision and expecting an outcome. 

The gun update really balanced things out for crims. Prices are much lower, heavies are everywhere. I personally destroyed @RedHot with an AK mk2 when he was wearing 200AP. Blud couldn't do nothing but lay on the ground, and roleplay his injuries.

What I'm trying to say is, use the right equipment for the right situation. If you really wanna fight a cop and expect that you'll win the fight, before doing so, make sure you're not outnumbered, have the right weapon and have a plan to dip after shooting them.