Policy Of Adding Every Charge And Length Of Prison Times.

[AJ2toke]

We need to either stop charging everything or reduce prison times to be able to charge for everything.

I have been in the server on and off for around 3 Years, I have a SD character and a crim character so I am on both sides and I can tell you it hurts both sides. There is overall less RP because of this.
 

The system to charging petty Crimes along with main felonys, combined with the prison times currently in place is way overkill for gamers. Expecially the charges that are ambiguous with serious prison times to them that get added along with other charges that already cover the crime committed. I understand the argument to be realistic in the sense of how we charge, and how this makes Law enforcement rp, gov rp, investigation rp, and court rp interesting.  But if you want to do this, we have to lower prison times and fix some of the ambigouse charges. Felony public endangerment for example, is way too ambiguous and is used constantly by PD adding another 60 minutes to prison times. No one wants to lose their entire day just because they did some Crim RP man, like evading with a weapon on them. They dont even shoot at anyone and get a slew of charges added.  Becouse you wont only get evading and illigal fire arm, they will give you everything else aswell. Maybe if you killed a cop and ran someone over in a stolen car yes, you can get around 3 hours. But it has to be something suuper serios to go for more than two or three hours.

 The risk/reward is way off. It's almost Non-RP to do any crime honestly.

I think the policy to charge just the main felonys, does it right. it charges for the main crimes and you will still have pretty long sentences that strikes real fear into players. You dont need to add every charge in the book or have so extreme sentences for people to still fear being arrested and to take law enforcement seriously. 

Let's remember this is a game and we come to Role Play. The important thing is to create more roleplay from this, not ruin peoples day.  This would allow also people with less time to hop into the server and enjoy some hours of gametime without worrying so much on if they go to jail they lose another free day. I know people who dont play anymore becouse of this, they dont have enough time. If they get cought the next day they are off they have to spend it in a cell. 

**Update**

It is not that PD is doing something wrong, they are doing their job to standard of their policy ICly, the discusion is about how this policy of adding every charge becomes exessive when we consider the prison times atached to these charges. Hence why maybe only adding main charges can be a solution to create a balance in Risk/Reward or reduce the jail times to these charges to allow room to add every charge that someone commits. 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by AJ2toke

[Sandiego]

+1 This topic has been brought into light on many topics like this now, but no changes have happened yet, the jobs in DOC was a great addition to combat the fines received, but the prison times are still very high, you can get 300 minutes of jailtime and more, which is basically the amount of free time some people have in their days to play eclipse and all of it would be spent in prison

[JamesMorgan]

+/- 1 Citations should go away like if 4 week pass. I lost all my money cuz i logged back on and someone instant busted me and charged me 11k.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by JamesMorgan

[AJ2toke]

22 minutes ago, Sandiego said:

+1 This topic has been brought into light on many topics like this now, but no changes have happened yet, the jobs in DOC was a great addition to combat the fines received, but the prison times are still very high, you can get 300 minutes of jailtime and more, which is basically the amount of free time some people have in their days to play eclipse and all of it would be spent in prison

Imagine the possibilities this would create man. How rare are bank robberies in any of the main banks taking hostages and actually having serios bank robbery rp? People just choose banks and stores where cops never patrol and they are in and out with no RP.  Maybe they get a chase at most but thats it. If those banks are closed then they just dont hit that bank becouse the risk/reward is way off.  This is just one example. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by AJ2toke

[MrSilky]

42 minutes ago, AJ2toke said:

Let's remember this is a game and we come to Role Play.

Just to add a reminder here that RP doesn’t cease when you are prisoned. You are prisoned per the actions you committed in your RP (usually negatively impacting other players) and now have roleplay opportunities within the DOC.

The discussion can obviously continue, I just wanted to drop that reminder in as it seemed an entire faction was being disregarded who are dedicated to creating the RP in DOC.

[AJ2toke]

6 hours ago, MrSilky said:

Just to add a reminder here that RP doesn’t cease when you are prisoned. You are prisoned per the actions you committed in your RP (usually negatively impacting other players) and now have roleplay opportunities within the DOC.

The discussion can obviously continue, I just wanted to drop that reminder in as it seemed an entire faction was being disregarded who are dedicated to creating the RP in DOC.

DOC RP still exists with SD charging system. You dont need to stack for DOC RP to exist.  SD chargin times is still long enough to maintain DOC faction and prison RP.

Just saying it should be similar to SD charging time that works just fine with DOC. PD would still be feeding DOC people and people would still have enough time to RP prison. I have never heard anyone at DOC complain about SD not charging enough. SD charging system with current prisons times is still long. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by AJ2toke

[Borrelli]

Your example of a charge which PD pushes and SD does not is "Felony Public Endangerment", this charge is by no means covered by SD's charging policy as a "Petty" charge given it is a Felony.

SD's policy requires its members to drop petty misdemanours which spawn as a result of the initial charge, for example if someone were to evade and then resist arrest when captured they would loose the resisting arrest charge. If however they drove in a manner so dangeours to the general public that felony public endangerment should be placed (there is a IC court ruling regarding what constitutes felony public endangerment), then dropping the Felony Public Endangerment charge is OOC corruption.

This said looking over the recent charges placed by PD for Felony Public Endangerment, in the last week it has been placed 16 times, while Evading an Officer has been charged 106 times in the same period. So if 15% of the time is constant then sure, I guess its used constantly, we'll just disregard that every single arrest report which included Felony Public Endangerment clearly outlines that the individual was swerving between lanes, break checking, driving consitently on sidewalks and swerving towards civilian and police vehicles while being pursused.

 

My preferred approach would be not to drop any charges or times for charges, but instead offer the ability to properly plead guilty/not guilty to charges (SD's current process for this is not binding in any way and the change would need script support regardless). If you plead guilty you get X% reduction in time, that way PD get to place the correct charges and criminals have an option to reduce their time. It would also limit the cases headed JBs way giving them more opportunity to properly RP them instead of having to rush them as there are 10s of other cases in the backlog pending a hearing/decision.

[dRose22]

+1
It's really cringe how they stack charges for everything, i was in shootout with PD and got arrested and wasted 2 hours wasting time while they stacked charges and had to do insurgent transport and then a 5 hour sentence, not very cool.

[Ash]

I have no stake in either side of this I am just trying to fuel discussion in a more productive manner than “yeaaah fuck pd”:

1: When you guys mention “charge stacking” your examples aren’t charge stacking. You should think of another term for adding lesser charges that are relevant but bump up time.
 

2: What exactly is the solution you want? PD to adopt SDs policy? Reduce jail time? Both? Would be good to have a general idea on what an ideal scenario would look like for you for a change to be considered. You do also have to keep in mind that at the end of the day if they charge you for a crime you did they’re doing their IC job adequately. not that I’m against change.
 

3: It’s worth keeping in mind also that jail times have been reduced over the last 3 years( I think twice?) and DOC has been given things for people to do, and internally DOC guard roleplay itself has evolved a lot, I remember a time where we wouldn’t enter the cellblock because it was a DM clusterfuck (much much worse than now). My point being, where’s the end where everyone is happy? When we have 15 minute sentences like other much lighter roleplay servers?

Even as someone who doesn’t go to prison often as a criminal, I can totally understand how 5 hours in prison would be shitty as that’d take out a large chunk of my play time in a week. But I’m going to be honest, the general criminal population does not put any effort into roleplay in prison and that mentality itself also needs to change if a compromise is to be had between all sides on this topic.

[AJ2toke]

saved

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by AJ2toke
I talk to much

[AJ2toke]

13 minutes ago, Ash said:

I have no stake in either side of this I am just trying to fuel discussion in a more productive manner than “yeaaah fuck pd”:

1: When you guys mention “charge stacking” your examples aren’t charge stacking. You should think of another term for adding lesser charges that are relevant but bump up time.
 

2: What exactly is the solution you want? PD to adopt SDs policy? Reduce jail time? Both? Would be good to have a general idea on what an ideal scenario would look like for you for a change to be considered. You do also have to keep in mind that at the end of the day if they charge you for a crime you did they’re doing their IC job adequately. not that I’m against change.
 

3: It’s worth keeping in mind also that jail times have been reduced over the last 3 years( I think twice?) and DOC has been given things for people to do, and internally DOC guard roleplay itself has evolved a lot, I remember a time where we wouldn’t enter the cellblock because it was a DM clusterfuck (much much worse than now). My point being, where’s the end where everyone is happy? When we have 15 minute sentences like other much lighter roleplay servers?

Even as someone who doesn’t go to prison often as a criminal, I can totally understand how 5 hours in prison would be shitty as that’d take out a large chunk of my play time in a week. But I’m going to be honest, the general criminal population does not put any effort into roleplay in prison and that mentality itself also needs to change if a compromise is to be had between all sides on this topic.

1: yes your right, stacking is just a term, what I mean is charge everything. 

2: I think it would help if PD adopts SD policy, or jail times get reduced and both charge everything. General Idea is promote more scenarios and RP thanks to reducing a bit the risk/reward factor. PD and SD are over powered compaired to everyone else. Wich is fine but just punish a little lighter becouse losing is much easier for crim than wining. 

3:  In no way should it be like 15min, we still need to fear law enforcment and to take it seriosly. But just not so harsh on people to where you spend the entire day in prison. But yeah I guess prison RP is negleted by crimes. I do see your point, I have not given that more thought. I guess the current meta of wining vs losing, instead of serios deep RP kind of makes prison RP less a thing, since people are more focused w/l than the actual rp. Good point your making. 

In no way is it f pd man. This servers PD and SD is aswome and there is no other place like it. All love! 

Sorry I dont want to give main character vibes here. ill let others get into this. just hope to be clear Take care!

Edited February 27, 2023 by AJ2toke

[alexalex303]

Charge stacking is the act of pressing the same charge for multiple instances. i.e. if you evade 5 times you get 5 felony evasion charges. The LSPD does not do this for most crimes.

Charging correctly (as per the penal code) is what the LSPD practices. If you feel that the times are too high for certain charges, you can pursue IC roleplay to adjust the penal code.

I also do not feel that crim RP is suppressed at all, simply look at the player report section and you will see groups of 40 people running around with heavies and kevlar in the middle of the city, drive-bying and convoying. If that's suppressed crim RP, I wouldn't want to see unleashed crim RP.

https://youtu.be/xso0o-nLYvU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRx9NzmlDPI

https://youtu.be/stL8G76z2aI?t=715

https://streamable.com/hfvqqq

https://streamable.com/8p705x

These are just in the last two weeks, and only what was posted publicly. You can imagine 10x more situations happen and never end up on the forums.

[hrxvey]

2 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

I also do not feel that crim RP is suppressed at all, simply look at the player report section and you will see groups of 40 people running around with heavies and kevlar in the middle of the city, drive-bying and convoying. If that's suppressed crim RP, I wouldn't want to see unleashed crim RP.

I'm not sure he really means rp like this, i think for example hostage banks and stuff like that. The amount of charges you get from a hostage bank (probably the one that brings the most rp to the crims and pd/sd) are never really worth it, and its extremely rare that it will go well. I feel the server should advocate for these types of bank robberies instead of punishing the players with a doubled prison sentence for trying to make a better rp scenario. 

[hrxvey]

26 minutes ago, Ash said:

When we have 15 minute sentences like other much lighter roleplay servers?

I don't think that's what they're trying to say, more so that if you evade, you get charged with evading. Rather than getting evading, public endangerment, reckless driving and then on top of that face concealment. IMO this is completely unnecessary and benefits literally no one on the server AT ALL.

[AJ2toke]

3 hours ago, hrxvey said:

I don't think that's what they're trying to say, more so that if you evade, you get charged with evading. Rather than getting evading, public endangerment, reckless driving and then on top of that face concealment. IMO this is completely unnecessary and benefits literally no one on the server AT ALL.

Exactly my point, thank you. Its just toning it down to not be so ecesive on the charging, so it allows people to be more creative with scenarios.
 

Edited February 27, 2023 by AJ2toke

[Josh Armani]

+1

Evaded and shot at officers, not killing or injuring any and i got around 3.5 hours its crazy 

[dawpi]

Quote

I think SD does it right in this sense. it charges for the main crimes and you still have pretty long sentences that strikes real fear into players

This is a killer sentence. I just stopped reading from this point on.

Edited February 27, 2023 by dawpi

[AJ2toke]

27 minutes ago, dawpi said:

This is a killer sentence. I just stopped reading from this point on.

Tried my best maaan, I know my writing isny my strong side and my point isnt so clear.  Just trying to say people are scared of catching the main charges too, they still fear law enforcment even though we dont charge petty crimes with the main ones. But yeah i get how it can sound a bit dumb to say "strikes real fear into people" lol. Yall killen me man

[Osborn]

Charging players for the crimes that they have committed is not fundamentally wrong, because players make their choices and they are not forced. 

We are making steps to improve certain things:

1. We are looking at defining Felony Public Endargement better so that it is more specific. It's very broad right now.
2. Government/LFM (Lewis) is currently reviewing charges that could be separated into minor and severe. One example was Assault with a Deadly Weapon, currently, you can assault someone with a firearm and a baseball bat and get the same charge and time. Charges like this where it makes sense to have different degrees are being looked at it.

As the leader of SD who is an advocate for the policy I was responsible for implementing, I do not feel that PD should be forced to adopt the same policy. It's IC politics, in the end, one department is more strict than another. It's like going into a different county or state in real life, attorney generals and cops may be more strict in one and not as strict in another. 

When I say that it's the player that makes choices, I am not wrong. Yes, I understand that there are certain charges that could be better defined and separated, but then it's also up to the players on what they want to do. 

• You can rob a bank with an Assault Rifle, evade the police when they arrive, become the unfortunate soul out of 20 to be chased, lead the cops into an ambush, hopefully, escape or not, OR you can just evade without leading them into an ambush and hope for the best. 
• You can evade the cops into the city at 200-240 km/h and hopefully not get into a situation where another motorist/pedestrian is put in acute danger. Or you can stay in the county. Yes, the county is harder to lose e.g. AIR but it's also extremely difficult to do something that puts the public in acute danger. 

I hope I am conveying my point correctly. 

The thing is, if PD gets berated for doing nothing wrong, SD is ultimately going to have to make amendments. We don't want PD to be berated because of our choices. 

 

[AtlasOLimbo]

As far as I'm aware the discretionary charges policy is both IC and OOC for SD, but the last time I read was a year ago at this point. @Osborn It gives SD players the ability to reward solid roleplay and fun interactions with lesser/modified charges. In my opinion, this is how it should be. Requiring something like unlawful assembly to be added upon any group crime is a bit ridiculous. But I also don't think this should become a PD vs SD thread. 

I'd like to see PD at the very least consider utilizing this policy.

Edited February 27, 2023 by AtlasOLimbo

[AnakinB]

from what ive seen from the job update in doc you can make your money back if not more while waiting to get released, im sure the community acts teh same in DOC however, thats just an us issue, shit looks good to me, my only complaint is how PD act 

[hrxvey]

2 hours ago, Osborn said:

SD is ultimately going to have to make amendments

no! but you have got your point across well ty :))

Edited February 27, 2023 by hrxvey

[Bala]

I don't know if people will actually bother to listen to this but while the PD and SD currently have differing methods of applying charges, no one legitimately gets a charge for a crime they have not committed. IA and JB work to make sure the charges are above board.

Of course criminals are going to want PD to adopt SD's policy, it's more favourable to them. If I was a criminal, I would probably feel the same way. 

It's not for me to say which policy is the right one, in terms of the server but honestly, I think having two different interpretations of the same penal code with JB looking over everyone's shoulder is a lot more trouble that it's worth. I don't think PD taking SD's approach works and I don't think SD taking PD's approach works either, there's probably concessions on both sides to meet in the middle.

The real life argument doesn't work on Eclipse because the only thing people are going to give a shit about at the end of the day is the amount of minutes and the money they're going to have to pay. They don't care how SD differs from PD until it comes down to charges.

Also, if anyone is caught leaking our faction announcements outside the faction, you're getting booted. Been told a bunch of times now and someone will always snitch on you for doing it eventually.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Bala

[Carl Vespucci]

Coming from someone who spends time on both sides.

 

Kidnapping/torture of a government employee/evading 4 hours
Robbing a store/running from cops/with a firearm (no violence to anyone) - 3 hours..

Doesn't make sense. I think increase serious charges/decrease non violent.

[Osborn]

6 minutes ago, Carl Vespucci said:

Coming from someone who spends time on both sides.

 

Kidnapping/torture of a government employee/evading 4 hours
Robbing a store/running from cops/with a firearm (no violence to anyone) - 3 hours..

Doesn't make sense. I think increase serious charges/decrease non violent.