Changes for LEO/Crim/Civ that NEED to be Changed/Tweaked

[DoubleA]

Here it is, the long awaited thread. Lets keep reactions and responses to this positive, please do not target anyone specifically in your responses if you have one, constructive or nothing. 

**DISCLAIMER: All of this is not just my opinion, this is collective from a large amount of the criminal community**

For those of you who have no clue who I am, I have been a player on this server since 2019 and have years of experience of LEO RP in PD AND SD as well as criminal character experience for those years.

For LEO RP: 
1.  Armor!!! This is something that has created a very unfair advantage against criminals to where most people are rolling around standard with 150/200AP armors and fully kitted with heavy weaponry. I have a simple way to bring the gap down;

25ap for “standard outfits” with no Kevlar. ((Currently its at 50))
standard Kevlar is 50ap ((currently 100))
SED/SWAT Passive patrol armor 75 ((currently 150))
SED/SWAT active patrol armor 100 ((currently 200 - some use the 150 while active but the option is used a lot))

The reasoning for this is very simple, all of this goes to the mentality of "unstoppable" forces. For a criminal that has to pay 20k for half armor, it seems very tilted towards LEOs that we have to not only take into account that most of us use .50s, we need to kill TWO or THREE people depending if they are wearing 150-200AP armors, while also disadvantaging the fact most heavies that are easily available after a month of two can 4 or 5 shot us at a fully automatic pace, firearms are another story though, just using as an example! But this will even the field and make it so paying 40k for a 100AP armor is worth it to use against law enforcement. I know a few cops that do not wear armor due to it being an advantage and when I say I respect the hell out of them, I mean it from the bottom of my heart.

2. NonRP Rule Addition: add in a line in the NonRP that says, LSPD/SASD members that flip, damage, or otherwise hurt a cars performance can not just despawn the car to get a new one unless a bug/glitch has taken place until that situation is over. Example: you’re in a pursuit in a marked jugular and you miss a turn and flip it. You may not go and /delcruiser then /fspawn jugular until that situation is over. You may go to LSC/Bayview and get it repaired - giving more RP to mechanic’s in the server. Exceptions to this rule: swapping one type of vehicle for another, IE storing a scout to pull out a Bf400

I have plenty of situations where criminals shoot tires of cruisers multiple times and they end up just going to the nearest station and changed cruisers just to get back into the pursuit.

 

3. Make Charge Stacking an OOC Punishment: It is no secret that this is more of a mentality thing than anything, where higher-ups in factions order the lower officers/deputies to do something and if they don't they receive punishment. I personally got an OOC Corruption warning for telling someone not to stack a petty charge. People should not charge "everything we can" but should throw on what is NECCESSARY. Criminals give PD/SD RP, so why throw them in prison for 5 hours each time for stacking 20-30 minute charges each time you see them? More crims in DOC means less RP for them, and less RP that gangs/civilians can have with each other.

 

Changes to CrimRP:
1. Lower the prices of imported heavy weapons by 1/3 of what they are now, keep ammunition the same but just the bodies lower. This will prevent players from grieving over losing guns and provide a less toxic community and less of the “SAVE POV” meta that this server has been in the last 2 years. Also since the economy has been very one sided where everything is SO grindy to get, this would make things a little easier. 

NOTE this would not bring it back to how it was back in the LFM/Azteca/Zeta days where they were 11k for an AK, this would just be a middle ground to make things easier for all of us.

2. Lower prison charge times by 1/2. If it makes it more balanced and we want criminals to PAY for their actions, raise prison fines by 50%. This will make it so monetarily more criminals will be effected, yet they will be able to leave DOC and continue to provide roleplay opportunities for the server. Or if not lowering times, give us more script things to do in DOC, example of make it so you can play poker for longer, instead of 300 stamps minimum to play, make it 10 and allow more seats to play. I guarantee people will do that instead of sit in a cell - also allow for more prison breaks as they provide plenty of RP, and 90% of the time they fail, the last one I personally have heard of was almost over a year ago. If anything, lower it until the DOC overhaul gets introduced. Personally I have done 40 hours in DOC the last 2 weeks, and it was either spent AFK in a cell playing another game, watching YouTube/Netflix, or fist fighting because that is literally all there is to do other than mine ore for hours. ((Edit: Thank you Chunder for linking this to me, please go plus this from Warden Lafleur

 

))

And for civilians:
1. Create more of a balance for jobs.
For example: Make fish sale prices 2x what they are now, double the wage for Burgershot, GoPostal, and ATM Servicing. ((Note: The job board has helped this a little bit, but even then it STILL is not working and needs to get more of a push))

2. Create more “community” focused jobs like road workers where multiple people can work at the same time. Make garbage job a multi-person job where when a route is completed, all members on the truck get money for it, similar to road worker job now.

3. Lower the economy down for standard objects like food, water, radios, GPS, gloves, etcetera. Also the lower end vehicles need to have prices halved so normal civilians can purchase vehicles so they can be a part of the server and not rent city bees 24/7, and they don’t have to grind immediately when they join the server, and can meet more players to expand the community.

Everyone has been waiting for different updates for years now, the first drug update was teased at the end of 2020-start of 2021((don’t remember exactly)) - give us small things to look forward to where we can play this server in the way it’s supposed to be played, as a game, but also have some sense of realism.

 

In general, the mentality of this server needs to shift. Everyone is very focused on winning a situation instead of enjoying and having fun. If everyone collectively did something about it, this entire server could be a role model for others alike. There are PLENTY of other things that can be tweaked slightly and not changed immensely that would make the experience fun for everyone involved, no matter what route you decide to take.

Edited February 1, 2023 by DoubleA
Amended and added

[Bakmeel]

Hey!

I see some good suggestions in this post which we can discuss further amongst senior staff in our next meeting.

I can only directly comment on the gun price changes, which will happen with the upcoming gun update.

Bakmeel

[Oli]

+1

Edited February 3, 2023 by Oli

[Jett_J]

Leo Part:

1. 

I don't think any changes to armor should be made since the whole weapon system on this server is going to change. I think criminals should be able to purchase higher AP. Pretty much anything armor/gun that a LEO can spawn should be importable by criminal factions (200 AP would probably be expensive enough to where it is not practical to buy it so purchasing this would be reserved for very special purposes). 

People might think crims having access to 200 AP armor is crazy but if the prices are set right, then I don't see why they shouldnt at least have the opportunity to do so.

I know you base a lot of your gameplay around "clapping cops" which is your choice. You want to take on the challenge and you know have to deal with the consequences of doing that. The server makes cops stronger to prevent people from making it a cops vs crims server. Your job should be to do crimes and avoid getting caught but you tend to try and take on the police head on which again you're not meant to win. 

2.

I can understand why it's frusturating that we can spawn new cars at the designated spawn point. I wouldn't mind a rule that says if your unit flips a cruiser or otherwise disables their cruiser during a pursuit, that unit cannot deploy another vehicle for the duration of that pursuit or if they do, they cannot partake in that paticular pursuit. This means you would have to refuel at the gas station, get your cruiser fixed at a mechanic shop, or just ride with another unit in the pursuit.

You said not to direct your comments at any individual but you did target RedHot in this point lol.

3.

This is already a thing at least for SD. It's called ransacking and it is not allowed on an OOC level. 

This is some examples from the OOC part of the handbook:

Some examples:
John Doe is arrested for trespassing with a mask. He is charged with trespassing and face concealment. This is OK!
John Doe stole a car, and decided to felony evade the police in a dangerous manner. He is charged with Felony Evading, Grand Theft Auto, Reckless Operation/Felony Public Endargement This is OK!
John Doe has robbed a bank, evaded the police, driven recklessly, hit someone along the way, and injured them. He is charged with Bank Robbery, Felony Evading, Possession of an Illegal Firearm, Felony Public Endargement, Felony Hit, and Run. You then decide they need more time, so you throw on Face Concealment and Failure to Comply. This is NOT OK!

 

Crim Part:

1.

New weapon update with new weapons/ammunition not sure what imports will look like so no comment on it. 

2.

+1

It's not fun having to hear people complain to me OOCly about jail time despite me giving them the minimum charges I can without being considered corrupt. New players should definitely get a reduction in fines. I feel really bad when I arrest a new player and I know that the fines etc are going to put them in debt and possibly make them lose motivation.

However a reason I agree with raising fines is because you have crims with so much money it's absurd. 

There is a massive wealth divide among criminal players. You're either broke as shit or rich as shit and it's hard to get the right balance of fines associated with charges.

 

I don't think there is a win mentality all across the server. It think there are a list of people that probably comes to your head when you think of playing to win whether that be a criminal or LEO player. I think staff have the responsibility of monitoring that in their factions and they could do a better job of it. I know you think LEO RP on this server has a "win mentality" but I have to disagree overall though there are definitely individuals who do have a win mentality.

From personal experience I can say Osborn does an outstanding job managing SD as a faction and implementing IC and OOC rules that ensure we are keeping up standards.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Jett_J

[BruciebearTV]

+1 nerf PD armor

[Birdy]

+1 to everything basically, main part is the prison break. I have had so much chances to break out but due to no staff on i couldnt. 

[Shining0103]

I do feel like some points in this post are coming out of a place of hatred and/or bias, given that this is a recollection of thoughts within the criminal side of the community. Say what you want of my (horrible) performances as a criminal roleplayer, I couldn’t care less, but I am and I’ve been for years on both sides of the fence, on different characters and different circumstances.

“For LEO rp”

There’s only one main point that I cannot stress enough:
POLICE IS NOT YOUR ENEMY. IT SHOULD NEVER BE THE TARGET OF YOUR CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES, AND IF YOU MAKE IT, YOU FACE THE CONSEQUENCES.
The armor advantage is there because there are only so many resources you can use against the current crime rate. The conflicts should stand between gang vs gang, you should be concerned about other gangs fighting you, you should be concerned about their assets and whatever kind of crim shit gangs can do to show manpower and superiority over other criminal organizations. Police is there to stop the violence, not to instigate it, it’s there to stop the contraband or to disrupt operations, not to go and bait just to start blasting around. Your first thought, as a criminal, should be to flee at the sight of police officers/deputies, at most to clean up as soon as possible your allies during a shootout, not to stay and fight and then complain that you’re outnumbered and in prison. 

The charges placed on a criminal are an IC issue that should be brought up within IC methods, as the penal code, fines and time attached to each charge is entirely IC. If you evade with a mask, from a bank robbery, carrying a gun, it’s the entire result of your IC actions: you could’ve surrendered, you could’ve decided not to wear the mask, you could’ve decided just to be the one picking up the cash and not aiming, but yet, you didn’t! And those are four charges, with their respective time. If during the arrest, you decide to run around, threaten, be a bitch, and not comply, that is STILL entirely up to you, and my duty in portraying a police officer is to uphold the law and charge you accordingly to your actions. Not because I am your friend OOCly or I have empathy does it mean that it makes sense for my character to entirely drop charges out of pity.
Instead of feeling like DOC is an OOC punishment, talk to the people around, don’t be a menace, and try and come up with interesting rp with your own prison mates. I had a 4 hours sentence after a house raid, and yet I was still doing yoga with a guard and kept myself busy.

You brought it up yourself, the very issue at the bottom of this kind of interaction is the constant doom and grieving over the loss of assets and guns. Bringing back the 2020 prices wouldn’t be that bad of a setback in my opinion, since the problem wasn’t the weaponry hoarding, but the massive zergs that would just go around and make other people’s playtime absolutely unenjoyable. Make it so the overall economy for civilians and criminals is not just a mindless grind, but people can actively enjoy and think out of the box with their roleplay.
Lower the gang cap to 20 people, bring more diversity to the active gangs and their control over certain territories, keep the backup rule in place but do not discourage alliances as long as they’re within reason, and promote roleplay scenarios and activities. On the same line as the gang vs gang point: Let’s stop discouraging shootouts or make it sound like shooting is the issue because it was and it *is* part of the fun in criminal roleplay, whether some people like it or not. I shouldn’t be scared to play in fear of a report, nor the other party involved, as long as fairness is kept in place.




Maybe let’s start addressing mass logins +-30 minutes before a shootout.     

[Herbo]

I’ve been playing the server religiously for the past 7 or so months and have played both Crim, LEO, and DOC.

LEO PARTS

1. Armor, I myself am personally in SED which is SD’s SWAT team and personally have seen my armor not be OP at all in many situations. Id like to first state fighting is not everything in the server but, as of right now SD has been getting fucking rolled by D6 to the point our armor isn’t as big of a thing as people are saying. We don’t just “win” every fight and we honestly lose more then most crims actually think. 

The second part of this is the fact that realistically SWAT and SED are going to win 90% of situations. IRL wise criminals are SCARED of them and won’t take fights as these are specialized and tactical groups who are meant to just shut the shit down that they’re doing.

2. NonRP - I actually really like this and agree with it, LEOs shouldn’t be able to just respawn a cruiser with a pursuit at least. They should have to wait until the pursuit is over if they want to respawn their cruiser. 

I only disageee with having to pay for them as realistically, they’re government funded and you’re not paying out of pocket for your cruiser. In my opinion, as long as it’s not during a pursuit you should be able to get a new cruiser because personally I’ll get a small scratch on my cruise and just go get a new one because I dislike the look of a small scratch.

3. Charge Stacking - This is something that even I get confused. There’s 2 completely definitions of this based on crim v LEO, for crims it just means you get charged based on what you do and you get every charge you committed, THIS IS ALLOWED, if you commit the crime expect to do the time for it, don’t commit a crime you can’t suffer the consequences of. For LEO it is adding charges they didn’t commit to make them spend more time in jail, THIS ISNT ALLOWED ANS THERE ARE RULES ON IT. These things are regulated and watched by Supervisors+ for SD wise.

CRIM PARTS

GUNS - While I agree, I also disagree. Like Jett said crims have WAYYY too much money nowadays. I know there are a plethora of crims who have 1-2+ mil just sitting in there bank or other crims with 10+ mil in assets and cash and other crims who have armories worth a couple mil. I agree with they should be lowered but i’d honestly be worried to see what it does to the server. If it gets lowered too much EVERY situation with LEOs turns into just a shootout because every crim has heavies and it just would get old so quickly. On the other hand, A pump shotgun with ammo is roughly 25-30k. Let’s say you just do roadcrew to make money, that’s roughly 3-5 hours of work, Bayview that’s like 5-6 hours of work. I agree they should be lowered slightly but just worried about what it could do to the actual RP of the server.

2. Fines - These I once again agree and disagree with. I think personally instead of raising or lowered fines/prison times. Just focus on DOC reform and making more RP opportunities inside. Working there for a while I know people like Chunder try to create RP for inmates as much as possible but it’s hard with such a lack of script features inside. I think prison times could be lowered for some things or the charge system could be changed a little with some charges that people constantly get tweaked a little like make Evading a 45 minute charge instead of 60 or split the illegal firearm charge to like a .50 is 30 minutes and then a heavy is 60. Small things like that could help to try and balance it out to but right now it’s not terrible in my eyes. The time and fines match good with the crimes but just the lack of RP inside makes it worse.

Mentality - Id say the mentality thing is 50/50. There’s 2 different types of players and depending on what you are detirmined what you see. 

If you get on to ROLEPLAY and have fun, you have a 70+% chance of having good experiences with everyone especially LEOs. It’s the bare minimum but when someone is showing us good rp with /mes and /dos and are treating us realistically, everyone loves it. We’ll have laughs and they have chances of just being let off light with tickets or a potential arrest because they were just being fun. This is the one thing I really hope everyone on the server can take into account and just improve on in the server. Just small things of RP really make a difference, for example during a traffic stop instead of just doing /license get some RP in and make it fun for us.

/me would appear extremely nervous.

/me slowly reaches into his pocket and pulls out a black leather wallet

/me opens the wallet and removes a San Andreas Drivers license and holds it out the window offering it to the cop / deputy

Thia may seem like small things but when I tell you LEOs specifically love this I mean it. Even other small things like BLS RP, show really good and high level RP and there’s a really good chance you have an actual chance to just die as most LEOs will try to match the RP. For example 

instead of like /me inspects the man for any injuries 

it’s be like /me pops open the trunk id the cruiser and pulls out the BLS bag slinging it around his shoulder

/me sets the BLS kit down next to the injured man and kneels down overlooking the man from head to toe attempting to find any injuries

then instead of like /do would find a broken right leg

you do /me would have black and purple bruising all across her/his right leg, about halfway down the right shin it would appear snapped in half with a compound fracture.

Stuff like that is so small but it’s something ever LEO loves and will take the time to provide you quality RP back and it just overall improves your chance of having good RP and not having to deal with the “play to win” mentality.

Overall, I feel like a lot of the issues spoken about in this post could be fixed if people just logged in to RP and not to just min-max the amount of money they could make or to clap.

Last thing, get rid of the stupid [ECRP] Claptages on youtube. They’re such a stupid thing that create a clap and terrible mindset for crim.

[Antonio_Colombo]

Big plus from the bottom of my hearth. 

Bonus for 2nd point - sometimes (not all cops) indeed pretent to be invulnerable just because of their affiliation with police. Here is a great example of police officer flipping car and not even having slightest bruises or car malfunctions

 

Plus other times when officers use to simply take out endless goodies from the car trunk. I would suggest that officers can take only limited amount of stuff and only from precincts like mission row, then load all they need in their car trunk. Car got lost, stolen? Well that happens, officer who took guns or other items faces monetary punishment for each item they do not retrieve at the end of their shift, say 20k for gun and 100k for heavies, another 60k for armor, sounds fair deal no? And then it is a fair chance for criminals to loot cop cars + they are not limited to their rp, and don't have to ask for "alt rp" to find a shotgun or other items in cop car, because in reality, alt rp perms usually are not as fast as it would be needed for optimal situation escalation, and this is bias in its true Form towards said faction members. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Antonio_Colombo

[Bala]

Yes, let's use individual cases to make something seem more of an issue. Because crims can't get their flowers, cops should get shit taken away from them as well?
Nice, then we can all be miserable together. 

When it comes to taking stuff out of trunks, we roleplay putting them in there before we can take them out, with the exception of the scene management blockades and shit.
Anyone that's pulling weapons that they haven't roleplay stored or have on them is powergaming and breaking our own faction runs.

As for charge stacking and shit like that, there is nothing inherently wrong with adding all the charges that a person has committed. The problem is that it's already difficult to make money as a crim because you're paying for everything as is but you get caught and not only do you get prison, you get fines. The other problem is that the prison fucking sucks and feels like an OOC punishment.

Getting arrested shouldn't feel like it doesn't have an impact on your character's behaviour but at the same time, it also shouldn't feel like you're getting fucked over out of character as well. 

I've lost count now of the amount of times I've banged the "improve the prison or reduce charge fines" drum and I have no intention of being a crim. I just can see as a cop how much it would suck if that was me. 

When you talk mentality, unfortunately, Eclipse is a lot of things to a lot of different people and we suffer from a lack of central vision of what the server is actually supposed to be. 

 

[Jett_J]

@Antonio_Colombo

I get you want LEO players to be more reponsible for their equipment but making them pay for equipment is definitely not the answer.
I get 300k for putting in 45 hours in a week. I would lose money playing which wouldn't make any sense.

The server already has a report for refund requests issue and if PD and SD have to pay for their stuff and criminals can steal it, then that just makes it so much worse because now PD and SD have a reason to "report for refund requests".

Edited January 31, 2023 by Jett_J

[BruciebearTV]

@Jett_J"I get 300k for putting in 45 hours in a week. I would lose money playing which wouldn't make any sense" 

 

But yet it's expected from criminals that sometimes make less that 300k a week be responsible for weapons armor prison time prison fines vehicle repairs and impounds to create rp for cops, that refuse to lose money hahahahhaha

 

If police have no reason to report for "refund request" why do they report then. They already report when they fail to catch an individual. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by BruciebearTV

[Jett_J]

@BruciebearTV

If you cook for 45 hours you're going to make insane money.

If you spend all your money on guns and armor so you can shoot, you're dumb lol...

People need to realize there is more to crim rp than buying guys and armor and shooting each other.

[lSpixsy]

-1 to nerfing cops armour, they're fine as they are.
+1 to the rest!

Edited January 31, 2023 by lSpixsy
Clarified my point

[Antonio_Colombo]

@Jett_J in response... (quote function seems to not work from phone, so sorry for tag)

Yeah amounts can be fine tuned, they don't need to be as ridiculous as I mentioned. 

I'm sure if smart people like most commenter here put their heads together, they can brainstorm a really good and functional system that punishes cops in IC ways for such matters, and at the same time helps to balance obvious bias here. It would be just fair that cops are responsible for some things like weaponry armor etc... 

For the stealing part- the cop cars are hard to steal or lock pick by itself, and it involves huge risk but also possibly a huge benefit. I would add that it is also unfair, that cop can just type some commands to get whatever he wants (with rp of grabbing it, hopefully) from car, while for crims they need to waste time waiting for admins to even respond to alt perm request because "admins are too involved in their own rp scenarios etc" while at the time the items realistically would be in some box or storage inside trunk, so it would make sense that other people that are not cops can easily get them if they get to the opened trunk itself... I hope you see what I meant by initial comment, that unfortunately average crim is in a bad starting position from the start, and that is not because crim life in general is risky and faces severe IC punishments, but that the system itself puts crims at the end of the marathon line right at the starting point. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Antonio_Colombo

[Bala]

Cops paying for their equipment is about the most [redacted] notion that could ever be conceived to be honest. If I'm paying for my vehicle, for the gas for my vehicle, for the guns I use to keep myself safe in a server where trying to kill cops is at times an occupational hazard then I'm staying in Mission Row and I'm not responding to any calls.

Or alternatively, I'm making sure that I do everything possible to "win" the situation at the expense of any role-play we might have.

Could we perhaps have some sort of sanctions for police using their equipment stupidly? Absolutely, all in favour of that but that needs to be done internally and in-character. It's not, with all due respect to those outside those factions, anything to do with them anymore than how criminal factions operate is any business of the cops.

If a cop totals their vehicle or gets it stolen, I think they should have to pay for it. But when you start talking some crazy talk, that ain't it.

It's not that cops are OP on this server, it's that criminals are massively underappreciated and under-supported. I'm all for creating new opportunities for crims, but not at the expense of cop RPers.

Edited February 1, 2023 by HotPipinLeo
offensive language

[alexalex303]

Properly charging someone with the crimes that they have committed is not an OOC punishment; unless you have some difficulties separating IC and OOC. If your character committed a crime, being charged for that crime can not possibly be an OOC punishment.

If you believe that prison times should be lower, individual charge prison times should be lowered. 

[Antonio_Colombo]

Yet, again, I need to remind that I am not suggesting cops to pay for their gear, I did not mention that nor it was my intent. What I mean is, make cops more in charge about what they do, held them more responsible for actions they carry. Ideally, they would be funded by our taxes, and amount of taxes they receive would dictate how much of the stuff or gear they can use and to what extent, therefore making them accountable for responsible  use of said expensive inventory. It is only fair that if cop takes out gear he don't need, trashes his car and just frespawns it, that it is unnecessary money spent, therefore waste of their "limited" budget ( not in this case obviously, because their limits are endless). As simply as it sound, if cops did not have fspawn items ability in their magic trucks, that would make them held responsible for fair and adequate use of equipment at their disposal. They load necessary stuff in car, use or don't use it, and bring it back at the end of shit by manually unloading trunk and putting items back in safes or whatever locker inside precincts, just the way crims do it all this time. If cop is too afraid for his life, I'm all in favor for him to sit inside mission row or impound place, maybe that way that cop will be more useful. That indeed sounds like what many Dayz players experience - loot sickness. Where they are afraid to loose their precious items, and so they do everything to not loose it. 

My comment is not intended from hate, just fair stakes for both sides, and this, in my humble opinion, would put both sides at more or less equal state. Making pd fear for their life and gear would equalize those people in both sides, that unfortunately have win mentality, on both sides of fence. I know from experience that most cops are cool people whom I would like to interact again, I would even do petty crime for that to happen, but unfortunately there are alse less bright bulbs, so this approach would not impact those who play from their hart, and would demolish win mentality to those who suffer from it and those who believes they are immortal just because they belong to forces. 

Makes me think, actually, why Noone wants that... 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Antonio_Colombo

[Kommand]

7 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

Properly charging someone with the crimes that they have committed is not an OOC punishment; unless you have some difficulties separating IC and OOC. If your character committed a crime, being charged for that crime can not possibly be an OOC punishment.

If you believe that prison times should be lower, individual charge prison times should be lowered. 

It'd be one thing if SAJB was operational enough to support a 100% realistic reflection of this. Anyone and everyone who is charged with a crime ends up doing the time. Any appeals after only serve to receive restitution or accountability from the arresting officers, nothing can change the fact you did time for it. 

I think a system similar to what @Jett_Jmentioned regarding "ransacking" is an effective approach in leveling the playing field for criminals. As the severity of crimes increase, the less petty, inconsequential charges should be dropped. It's very easy to accumulate charges with the way MDC is displayed. Those bright, blue buttons are just so alluring and satisfying to press. In all seriousness, I hope @Osborn can convince PD to implement a similar policy. 

re:armor

Why do people have loads of depleted AP vests in their safe lol, is everyone expecting an update to introduce plate carriers, or some secondary component? Y'all gone be rich if that's the case, fresh off those gun attachment refunds just in time for tax season LMAO

fr tho. I hope maybe the new gun update includes new changes for armor, if even just a slight improvement. It'd be cool if AP was also available to buy for Legal Firearm Licensed citizens at Ammunation. I think they're overpriced but legal firearm buyers already pay more than black market counterparts, so there's precedent to pay a premium. 

For the record I am not in support of requiring police to pay for equipment, but I do think the equipment they are provided through faction loadout should be unlocked able to loot. I understand the concerns on cops being targeted for their weapons, but aren't there OOC rules against this anyway? Currently criminals avoid RP with police because there's nothing to gain. If you win, congrats, you don't go to prison. No financial incentive whatsoever. I'll say this: if LEO factions handled their own equipment like they handled evidence, there would be a much better balance, and more accountability over issued equipment. Criminals have to manage their weapons at physical locations in actual safes that are susceptible to being stolen. 

The server is grindy and I get why for the most part, but there's an attachment of time to every valuable weapon you have or don't have. 

13 hours ago, Jett_J said:

@BruciebearTV

If you cook for 45 hours you're going to make insane money.

If you spend all your money on guns and armor so you can shoot, you're dumb lol...

People need to realize there is more to crim rp than buying guys and armor and shooting each other.

Cooking requires a massive investment to do effectively and the only other alternative is holding labs long enough to use the tables there. That requires firepower and numbers typically. Honestly if you spend no money on guns or armor as a criminal, you're dumb. You'll be under FearRP by every swingin' dick at Labs. Chop shop would even be worse. Here's a 200k investment that I'm not gonna guard with guns. Real solid strategy Jett. I'm gonna need you to go ahead and leave your obligatory confused. 

[Shining0103]

58 minutes ago, Kommand said:

It'd be one thing if SAJB was operational enough to support a 100% realistic reflection of this. Anyone and everyone who is charged with a crime ends up doing the time.

If we want to mention "realistic reflection", pretrial detainment is an actual thing, and the take you have and the demand for realism are completely mutually exclusive. You can't have your cake and eat it too, JB already takes WAY too much time for a single appeal, there's not enough people to cover the demand.

58 minutes ago, Kommand said:

 I understand the concerns on cops being targeted for their weapons, but aren't there OOC rules against this anyway?

Sure there's rule in place to stop it OOCly, but does this stop people from DMing around? Or from doing NRP robberies? What happens when a LEO roleplayer wakes up one morning, in the wrong timezone, and cannot go on patrol because there's very few units to back him up and a criminal saw him as a walking lootbox?
We shouldn't reinforce an already toxic enviroment like the forum reports section with even more reasons for people to just report each other, doesn't matter the faction.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Shining0103

[alexalex303]

2 hours ago, Kommand said:

It'd be one thing if SAJB was operational enough to support a 100% realistic reflection of this. Anyone and everyone who is charged with a crime ends up doing the time. Any appeals after only serve to receive restitution or accountability from the arresting officers, nothing can change the fact you did time for it. 

The fact that you end up doing the time immediately is exactly what most people want; The average person does not want a realistic reflection of this. The current implementation of the SAJB system is in favor of the criminal roleplayers and against realism due to the fact that it is a video game.

What would happen realistically is if we catch Joe shooting at some cops, we would arrest him, put him in jail and he would sit there for a while until an (Assistant) DA would approve his charges, at which point he would sit there for months until a trial happened. We could go to that system tomorrow, it wouldn't even require script support, but I doubt most criminal roleplayers would want that.

Every single charge that a cop places on your character is able to be appealed in two different levels, one, with the department via internal affairs, and two with JB. There are checks and balances that prevent you from being charged with things that you did not do; the point of contention is that some people feel that being charged accurately is somehow OOC toxicity. I find that notion to be faulty and one of a person that struggles to separate their character's feelings/well-being from their own.

[Requiem]

1) Armor - I think there is a misconception about armor here. As already stated, LEOs have increased armor to discourage fighting them and to fear shootouts and fights with them. This is realistic and the way it should be. The other factor to consider here is that it is also a way to balance crim vs LEO interactions. On a daily basis, crims evade from LEOs in a pursuit situation, and setup ambushes for cops to get shot at. Crims have the capability to control the situation and always take the first shot. A cop is not allowed to shoot first in most situations, or even have the capability to have the positioning or numbers for a situation. If crims choose to lead cops to an ambush, cops can only react at that point. Everything cops do is REACTIVE to what crims do, not the other way around. The fact that crims get to control the playing field and take the shot first means that cops need to have the armor and equipment to counteract that for an even playing field. Armor should not be touched, especially until we know what the gun update brings. As was already stated by someone else here, if crims really want to, they can roll cops easily and theres not much to be done about it since LEOs can only react to a situation. 

2) Vehicle Spawning - I don't think this is as much a problem as is being stated. Most often when someone flips a police vehicle, they are stuck waiting for someone else to pick them up, and even if they do get picked up by another unit, they tend to normally stay in the vehicle with the other person that picked them up for the duration of the pursuit. I cannot recall the last time I saw one of the specialized vehicles such as the high speed flipping or taken out of the pursuit (at least in my experience) due to damage. Any vehicles that this normally happens with are standard slower cruisers such as a scout or a crown vic, and there a RPly there are numerous of those standard vehicles in the motor pool/garage, so I don't see it as unrealistic for them to grab a new vehicle. One thing I personally think SHOULD change however is people rping injuries. There is a severe lack of proper medical RP in this server on all sides (crim & LEO). People should more often properly RP their injuries if they are in a major crash, not just continue on like nothing happened. 

3) Charge stacking - There may need to be clarification on this topic. I hear alot of people say that LEOs are charge stacking, but in reality, they are only applying the charges that the criminal actually committed. Charge stacking is NOT applying the charges committed...it IS stacking multiple of the same charge for no reason or placing charges that never occured. I personally do not ever see any charge stacking occurring. I think the issue is people just unhappy with how much time they are getting in prison. 

4) Lower gun prices - I agree and disagree here. There are some gun prices that are too high for sure that should be lowered, but we also don't want this server to turn into a full on PVP server by making the guns too cheap and arming everyone to the teeth with heavy weapons. There needs to be a balance. 

5) Lower prison times - I think some charges should be lowered for sure. I don't think evading with a .50 in your glove box should land you 2 hours OOC time in prison. Could maybe look at lowering things like evading to 45 mins down from 60 or the previous suggestion of a .50 to 40 minutes and heavy weapons stay at 60 minutes. I think alot of this needs to be dealt with IC tho with the LRC, not OOC here. 

As for the civilian suggestions, those all seem fine and I am good with the suggestion.

[Dara MacFadden]

wtf am I reading honestly, and why does every thread look the same

It's not debatable, cops are stupidly OP, idc what faction you play it is what it is, you and I both know it. Striving for utter realism is what hurts the server more than benefits it

Dont understand the stigma around shooting PD either, it's a game, who gives lmao.. Also people in certain factions getting mad about getting shot... are you serious?

Lowering gun prices won't turn the server into a full blown pvp fest lol, it will never happen anymore with the rules in place

On 1/31/2023 at 7:29 PM, Jett_J said:

@BruciebearTV

If you cook for 45 hours you're going to make insane money.

If you spend all your money on guns and armor so you can shoot, you're dumb lol...

People need to realize there is more to crim rp than buying guys and armor and shooting each other.

Like what exactly?

Edited February 1, 2023 by Dara MacFadden

[cedridge]

The people that are justifying 200AP need a reality check and some fresh air. Pretty sure cops had less armour, less OP vehicles and a better mentality back in the council days, so I really don't see why cops need such a stupid amount of resources these days when the largest gangs can barely hit 40 members in F4. As stupid as the current setup is, it will never get changed, because this exact complaint comes up every few months and always gets ignored, so why bother.

Air 1 is another huge issue and gets pulled for pretty much every chase that I've been in. I'd have no issue with it being pulled if it wasn't able to outlast a car's fuel tank, but once again it boils down to a lack of training, skill and co-ordination that no one gives a fuck to improve on so stupid shit like this will continue to exist.

[TheOwl]

Let the cops keep their stuff for free and just get rid of the no back up rule. This will bring diplomacy back to gangs and even the playing field. 

 

The fun part of building comradery is saving your allies from the ops and the cops and dapping each other up afterward. It does not get built on over 10 minute conversations between 6-8 people over whether you're gonna charge someone an extra 3k for .50s or cut then off entirely. 

 

It was said that Cops are not your enemy. Wrong.

 

Cops are enemy #1 to every criminal faction on the server. It is quite literally the one thing they all have in common.

 

As far as zerging small gangs go, there are escalation rules and nonrp rules for attacking HQs in place to protect small gangs from getting taxed and waxed.

 

Today's gangs are not as prone to griefing as years past 

Edited February 1, 2023 by TheOwl