Change the 6.3.1/6.3.2 Metagaming Rule

[Flucifial]

2 minutes ago, Osvaldon said:

Basically, the metagaming rule should ensure the following:

1. A fair gaming experience -  telling your friends or allies a location and asking for help, so those around you cannot intercept your chatter is unfair and should be viewed as the most severe form of MG (it's just one example).

2. A better roleplay environment - it's much better to hear people talk to each other, than see them standing or walking around, but not interacting vocally.

I have explained to some staff members that using your in-game name as your Discord name is not an issue. Streamers are a controversial topic, I personally support them, since it boosts our publicity and I think the streamer culture has progressed a lot since what it used to be 10 years ago, restricting them, would be an outdated policy.

What about changing the rule to say, relaying information about ongoing situations, giving players the option to discuss concluded situations, if they want to? I wouldn't see any harm in that, because I do agree, relaying information of ongoing situations should be considered metagaming, but as of right now, people cannot even discuss IC events that happened, for example, three months ago. 

[Osvaldon]

If you say they can't, it's not intentional, it's an interpretation. I'm totally open to new rule formulas.

[Denise C]

On 12/10/2018 at 2:17 PM, Osvaldon said:

Basically, the metagaming rule should ensure the following:

1. A fair gaming experience -  telling your friends or allies a location and asking for help, so those around you cannot intercept your chatter is unfair and should be viewed as the most severe form of MG (it's just one example).

2. A better roleplay environment - it's much better to hear people talk to each other, than see them standing or walking around, but not interacting vocally.

I have explained to some staff members that using your in-game name as your Discord name is not an issue. Streamers are a controversial topic, I personally support them, since it boosts our publicity and I think the streamer culture has progressed a lot since what it used to be 10 years ago, restricting them, would be an outdated policy.

First, thanks a lot for responding to this discussion. I'm very glad it reached you/caught your eye. x

Moving on, all rules are intended to ensure a better roleplay environment and a fair gaming experience. That's the purpose of roleplay rules in the first place, from our rules on combat logging to our rules on deathmatching to everything else we have in our rules document.

The issue is now because the current metagaming rule is so flimsy and so hard to enforce, we're seeing administrators such as Ballin making selective exceptions to the rules (e.g. PD use of Discord, Streamers, etc.) and other administrators such as Serthon enforcing the rule strictly for no reason (e.g. giving someone with no prior record of rule-break, not even a verbal warning, an official warning for saying, "I'm responding to a robbery").

Obviously requesting help on an OOC platform from your allies is metagaming. There's no denying that. Your second example, however, isn't really in relation to the metagaming rule. People get in Discord calls while they're on the server and they'll be caught up in conversation (usually conversation that is completely irrelevant to roleplaying) and they won't roleplay. This happens in every roleplay platform everywhere and it's unavoidable, but just because people are in a Discord call does not mean they're exempt from roleplaying. I'm of the opinion that if you log on the server you're logging on with the intentions of roleplaying, and if you don't have those intentions a player should log off.

Like I said, metagaming has always been a difficult thing to police, and I applaud the attempt at trying to make it less difficult, but, as a result, staff members are punishing good players for doing very innocent things. The things that the current metagaming rule seeks to prevent don't actually bring down the roleplay environment nor do they contribute to a negative roleplay experience. The only way someone could achieve either of those things is if they actually metagame, if they actually use OOC information IC, not if they're merely discussing things that happened or are happening in character via out of character means.

I'm of the opinion that we should be allowed to speak of things that have happened in character, as well as things that are ongoing. If people abuse that and metagame then the punishment should be severe for it. I feel as though the solution is to increase the punishment for real metagaming and scrap the "you can't talk about things that happen/are happening IC" part. At the same time, even making it so we can at least discuss concluded situations would be a step in the right direction. Obviously it's not what I personally want to achieve from this topic and, in my opinion, it's still unfair to rule-abiding and fair players, but it's a whole lot better than this rule as we have it right now.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Denise C

[Zemaitc]

@Kaizure I would say it is very dependant on everyone individually with many factors in it (maturity, rp experience, individual character etc.). I truly can agree that there are people who understand the difference between ooc and ic and I give them huge plus 1. On the other hand, there are people who use info gained by ooc means to their advantage in ic and its almost impossible to stop it and to prove it cuz they can just claim "its a pure coincidence". 

Well as I said, it is a very useful topic, we see how many people are concerned about it and how slippy this rule is. There probably aint no answer or conclusion to this which would make everyone happy, but I really hope staff will find the best way to explain the rule and how players should follow it.   

[xxStallingCoinxx]

5 hours ago, Osvaldon said:

If you say they can't, it's not intentional, it's an interpretation. I'm totally open to new rule formulas.

I mean I was punished in faction chat for saying "Why doesn't anybody take their car home after shift". To me, that isn't metagaming. It's metagaming if I say "Everybody move your cars after your shift" I asked a question OOCly, and did not give an IC command OOCly.

Of course, there are different circumstances to this, but I mean over it should be the act of USING OOC info, not the act of RELYING the info.

Edited December 11, 2018 by xxStallingCoinxx

[Xypint]

+1

Perhaps modify it so you cant discuss an active RP situation OOCly? 

[Donovan]

I agree with you 100% Helene , if I am for example driving around in Palleto Bay and my mate is at Trucker's yard , why would there be a problem if we were talking about something that happened hours before ? In my oppinion the only time that you'd be breaking MG would be incase of using OOC information in IC . 

[MrSilky]

I just don't see any harm whatsoever about actively engaging with friends and talking about what you are/have been doing.

Obviously, saying something like "Oh, Shit! I'm getting robbed at the end of the fishing pier, can you help me out?" Is wrong, no arguments.

But where is that harm in talking to friends and saying "Ah, Shit! I'm getting robbed again!"

Explaining the details of the event and making the other person use that OOC knowledge ICly IS metagaming, discussing an event is not.

90% of the community are adults, we should be trusted enough to differentiate between the two examples and distance ourselves from the first. This is, at the end of the day, a game. People like to talk about the content of their game be that in the past or ongoing. I like to get in a call with friends who are also playing the server but under the current rules, we cannot discuss anything about the game we are all playing, which is preposterous. 

 

[HaminLord]

I don't even know how large a +1 this is for me, the current metagaming rule definition (in ECRP at least) is as follows:
6.3.1 Metagaming (MG) is the act of relaying IC information through OOC methods or using OOC information in roleplay
scenarios. OOC methods include third-party software, for example, Discord.

What many players don't understand, is that even mentioning IC events in an OOC platform such as discord is considered metagaming by this definition. 
And for me, this is one of the dumbest rules that I've ever seen in an RP server. And to be honest, I break it almost every day on multiple occasions. Whether if it's by speaking with your friends (In an OOC platform) about IC events which happened 3 hours ago, or whether if it's about telling them some guy robbed me and then he flipped his vehicle while he drove away (just examples). 

I personally believe that this needs to change, as @Denise C said. The actual definition of metagaming in the rules needs to change to the actual definition of metagaming which is commonly used in other roleplay servers. Which is usually the following:
A player may share IC information in OOC manners. However, if the information is later used by other players who learned it through the OOC manner in an IC way, the players who did so are metagaming.

The server already has this rule. However most people know about it, unlike 6.3.1 which most players don't even know exists. I believe that the metagaming rules should be changed as the following:

 

6.3.1 Metagaming (MG) is the act of relaying IC information through OOC methods for benefit including other players who learned said information in the OOC methods. Methods like using third-party softwares such as Discord, Teamspeak or etc. Breaching this rule will result in punishments. However, if IC information is learned in an OOC manner and not used IC  this will not be considered a breach of the metagaming rule.

 

6.3.2 Relaying IC information through OOC methods, which benefit the player, is a major MG offense and will result in a ban.
For example, a player is at gunpoint, the player uses an OOC method to call for help, as a result, the attacker is unable
to detect this action and has no chance to counter it (it is unfair for the attacker).

6.3.3 Player’s camera view determines the field of vision of their character (“camera metagaming” is not enforced).
(6.3.4 is not really important to this specific topic however I added it anyway.) 

Edited December 11, 2018 by HaminLord

[Kaizure]

With the examples some of you have used in ways you've been punished, I find myself counting my blessings that I still have a clean admin record despite doing some of the things you guys have listed. Why do some get punished for talking about IC events over Discord or Teamspeak when others don't? That makes it seem like an ambiguous rule that certainly needs some revamping for better clarification on what is and is not acceptable.

 

I agree with what many of you have said: it is a completely reasonable (and common) thing for people to share their experiences with their friends in an OOC manner, whether it's that you got robbed over 9000 times or that your car flipped because of a floating shotgun. Things happen, and we often share them because we think it's funny (which it usually is). You shouldn't be receiving a punishment for talking about something in OOC when no IC actions are taken as a result of your OOC interaction.

 

It's clear that everyone here knows how to separate OOC from IC, though to be fair, this is just a handful of players out of the greater 200+ people we have online on average. Not all 200+ players are going to have as clear an understanding on the difference between IC and OOC, which is why it's important to give them a clear idea of what it is, rather than blanket-punishing every instance of OOC discussion regarding in-game matters.

 

As a final note, I just want to say: I love the discussions that have popped up regarding this issue. It means a great deal that people can approach something like this and discuss it in a civil and mature manner. It really shows how passionate people are for this community and for the RP server when they see a problem and can unify to address it in a way that is constructive, rather than negative. Major kudos to all of you for the way this matter has been discussed.

 

 

[2cannnn1]

Example ; 

Im getting robbed at the pier, I tell my friend on discord, who was originally heading up north, but now since im being robbed and metagamed he turns around to help me.

^METAGAMING

 

From the point of view of the robber, my friend pulling up could either be metagame, or a coincidence.

Let's pretend since this is an example, that he believes it is metagame and records it.

The next day, we see the post on the player reports, all we have to write down is that we were already meeting up there, or my friend just accidentally coincidentally stumbled upon us.

Bang, admins cant do anything because there is no proof...etc This has happened to me more than I can recall on this server, thats how gangs and cops work. No way to stop

metagame, there is always a way to work around it!

 

For example, Los Zetas, they will make there metagame look amazing, they will simply drive past as if the guy was just driving past, and than continuously keep driving past so you cant RP with them, drive off if you go near, and wait out for there other peeps. Purposefully make it look, so if im recording, as if they stumbled across me doing what ever to who ever. Ive been part of countless robberies and seen metagaming ALMOST every time you rob someone, THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE. 

People can simply say it was a coincidence or that they were meeting up somewhere, down the road and what ever, Ive made reports and the outcome is the admin has no evidence. 

Only way is for people to actually decide they wanna play the game properly, trust is the only way. 

Or keep the rule so people cant talk about whats happening in-game currently, which has obviously been broken by everyone who's played on this server including staff, and if you disagree with that, than your bs. lol 

All crime factions have discords, ive been on all the discords, they all metagame. LOL

IF ANYONE SAYS OTHERWISE YOUR A LIAR!!! LOL

 

[Rubsmeister]

1 hour ago, 2cannnn1 said:

Example ; 

Im getting robbed at the pier, I tell my friend on discord, who was originally heading up north, but now since im being robbed and metagamed he turns around to help me.

^METAGAMING

 

From the point of view of the robber, my friend pulling up could either be metagame, or a coincidence.

Let's pretend since this is an example, that he believes it is metagame and records it.

The next day, we see the post on the player reports, all we have to write down is that we were already meeting up there, or my friend just accidentally coincidentally stumbled upon us.

Bang, admins cant do anything because there is no proof...etc This has happened to me more than I can recall on this server, thats how gangs and cops work. No way to stop

metagame, there is always a way to work around it!

 

For example, Los Zetas, they will make there metagame look amazing, they will simply drive past as if the guy was just driving past, and than continuously keep driving past so you cant RP with them, drive off if you go near, and wait out for there other peeps. Purposefully make it look, so if im recording, as if they stumbled across me doing what ever to who ever. Ive been part of countless robberies and seen metagaming ALMOST every time you rob someone, THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE. 

People can simply say it was a coincidence or that they were meeting up somewhere, down the road and what ever, Ive made reports and the outcome is the admin has no evidence. 

Only way is for people to actually decide they wanna play the game properly, trust is the only way. 

Or keep the rule so people cant talk about whats happening in-game currently, which has obviously been broken by everyone who's played on this server including staff, and if you disagree with that, than your bs. lol 

All crime factions have discords, ive been on all the discords, they all metagame. LOL

IF ANYONE SAYS OTHERWISE YOUR A LIAR!!! LOL

 

Great job derailing a really interesting and fruitful discussion between players that care a lot about the server and it’s rules and turning it into completely baseless slander.

You are permanently banned for breaking more rules than you can probably count (including metagaming by the way), try to atleast selfreflect a little bit before pointing the finger at everyone else again.

As to Helene’s point: I think you are absolutely correct. Playing on this server is a lot of fun, obviously you want to talk to your friends about your experiences. Metagaming should be about punishing players who try to get an edge over other players through nonRP means such as thirdparty communication software. I shouldn’t be getting punished for wanting to share the fun I’m having with my friends.

Zilian Dent

Edited December 12, 2018 by Rubsmeister

[2cannnn1]

Just pointing out ways people just go around rules and abuse >.> It's really hard to enforce certain things and you just gotta have faith in the player base. 

Im trying to get unbanned and change my ways.

[Kaizure]

5 hours ago, 2cannnn1 said:

...

1) This has happened to me more than I can recall on this server, thats how gangs and cops work.

...

 

2) For example, Los Zetas, they will ...

...

3) Only way is for people to actually decide they wanna play the game properly, trust is the only way. 

4) All crime factions have discords, ive been on all the discords, they all metagame. LOL

 

 

Snipped most of your post to touch base on these things you said:

1) At present, yes, gangs, cops and other groups metagame if you classify the metagame as its current definition in the rule book. However, talking about in-game events in OOC and not acting on them is not metagaming. I have never seen evidence of all cops and all gangs using OOC information for their IC advantage, and I would like to know why you think it's okay to come in here and blanket-accuse entire groups when we're trying to have a civil discussion.

2) Same question as above: why start making accusations towards entire groups? This is how you start flame wars. If you want to change your ways, consider double-checking your posts before hitting 'post reply' and making sure what you typed can't be construed as offensive or unfair.

3) Of course Trust is the only way. Trust is the basis for every rule on the server. Everyone on the server has to do the quiz and prove they understand the rules. Being on the server and role playing with others, we all maintain some level of trust that the person (or persons) we're role playing with have all read and understood the rules. End of the day, trust is what keeps the role players role playing with each other.

4) Metagame in terms of talking about in-game events for laughs, or metagame in terms of using OOC information for IC advantage? If you have proof of this, that's one thing... but otherwise it just comes across as yet another blanket accusation.

 

I can understand being frustrated with previous experiences, but please try to keep the conversation in here a civil one. Don't resort to petty blame-game tactics and start throwing mud around on different groups.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Kaizure

[Osvaldon]

A possible formula, that aims to solve problems mentioned in this thread.

[Rubsmeister]

11 minutes ago, Osvaldon said:

A possible formula, that aims to solve problems mentioned in this thread.

Looks really good. Very clear and compact, not overcomplicated. Definitely a +1 from me.

[Denise C]

1 hour ago, Osvaldon said:

A possible formula, that aims to solve problems mentioned in this thread.

I agree with this as well. The only thing I would recommend adding is the punishment range (e.g. “metagaming will result in punishment ranging from a warning to a permanent ban” or whatever staff decides the punishments should be). But even without that it is still a +1 for me. Thank you very much for hearing us out on this topic.

 

I’d love to know what other community members think of Osvaldon’s suggestion too.

[Kaizure]

1 hour ago, Osvaldon said:

A possible formula, that aims to solve problems mentioned in this thread.

I agree with this. I hope you don't mind though: I'm going to write an alternative version. I found the one above (especially 4.3.3) a little hard to read.

4.3.1      Using OOC information to give you and/or your friends an unfair advantage is a major metagame violation.

4.3.2      OOC Information being used in role play—which results in minor consequences to involved parties—would be a minor metagaming violation.

4.3.3      OOC Information is something you learned through OOC methods, such as using Discord, Teamspeak, or one of the OOC chat features on the server. All parties involved must witness the exchange of information through interactive role play, which means giving players a chance to see or hear what you are doing and granting them an opportunity to respond. This will all contribute to an improved game experience and a better roleplay environment.

 

Edited December 12, 2018 by Kaizure

[Xoza]

I think creating more options in-game to relay information IC'ly would help out a lot. Some kind of group text, message board, a faction group you can create marked 'unofficial' that doesn't get all the perks of official one but has communication or information posting options. Where's our IC life invader? Right now our GTA RP experience seems to be kind of in a pre-90's age.

[Catstify]

On 12/11/2018 at 5:16 PM, HaminLord said:

I don't even know how large a +1 this is for me, the current metagaming rule definition (in ECRP at least) is as follows:
6.3.1 Metagaming (MG) is the act of relaying IC information through OOC methods or using OOC information in roleplay
scenarios. OOC methods include third-party software, for example, Discord.

What many players don't understand, is that even mentioning IC events in an OOC platform such as discord is considered metagaming by this definition. 
And for me, this is one of the dumbest rules that I've ever seen in an RP server. And to be honest, I break it almost every day on multiple occasions. Whether if it's by speaking with your friends (In an OOC platform) about IC events which happened 3 hours ago, or whether if it's about telling them some guy robbed me and then he flipped his vehicle while he drove away (just examples). 

I personally believe that this needs to change, as @Denise C said. The actual definition of metagaming in the rules needs to change to the actual definition of metagaming which is commonly used in other roleplay servers. Which is usually the following:
A player may share IC information in OOC manners. However, if the information is later used by other players who learned it through the OOC manner in an IC way, the players who did so are metagaming.

The server already has this rule. However most people know about it, unlike 6.3.1 which most players don't even know exists. I believe that the metagaming rules should be changed as the following:

 

6.3.1 Metagaming (MG) is the act of relaying IC information through OOC methods for benefit including other players who learned said information in the OOC methods. Methods like using third-party softwares such as Discord, Teamspeak or etc. Breaching this rule will result in punishments. However, if IC information is learned in an OOC manner and not used IC  this will not be considered a breach of the metagaming rule.

 

6.3.2 Relaying IC information through OOC methods, which benefit the player, is a major MG offense and will result in a ban.
For example, a player is at gunpoint, the player uses an OOC method to call for help, as a result, the attacker is unable
to detect this action and has no chance to counter it (it is unfair for the attacker).

6.3.3 Player’s camera view determines the field of vision of their character (“camera metagaming” is not enforced).
(6.3.4 is not really important to this specific topic however I added it anyway.) 

+1 and bumping the thread for visibility again. I agree with @HaminLord's change suggestions.

[BallinByNature]

Rule has been updated several times since this. Thanks for the suggestion.