FRP and Police

[cheatonus]

This is in response to a current report and some comments I've seen made by officers in game. Why shouldn't a suspect continue to talk on their radio and/or change frequencies when an officer of the law has them at gunpoint? I guess you could make the argument the officer might thing the suspect is reaching for a weapon, however my opinion is we shouldn't have to be afraid a cop is going to kill us unless we're trying to kill a cop. The officers and likely 5-10 officers already have me at gunpoitn why would I try to reach for a weapon?  Is a cop really going to shoot a suspect for talking on a radio? Doesn't seem like something that would warrant lethal force to me.  To me there's a completely different dynamic to having a criminal have you at gunpoint than an officer having you at gunpoint. I'm never afraid a cop is going to shoot me unless I'm also shooting at them. Not sure why I should be worried about reaching over with my hand to my ear and saying something on my radio, I hope to god an officer of the law wouldn't gank me for that and I don't think FRP should apply because no character should fear for their life under gunpoint of a police officer in that way. Just my opinion, please roast accordingly. 

[HobGoblin]

Fear rp is fear rp.  Rules apply to everyone no matter who is holding the gun. 

[cheatonus]

So that's it then? Black and white? No nuance at all? A gun is a gun no matter who is holding it and what their motives are? Are we not smarter than that? I think encounters with law enforcement should be different. I shouldn't have to worry about the cop shooting me if I'm not threatening the cop. That would be murder. Why should I be worried a cop is going to murder me for talking on my radio? The motive for that cop holding that gun at me is far different than a criminal's motive. The officer is using it as a self defense weapon, not an offensive weapon.  At least that's what I would hope. An officer shouldn't pull the trigger unless they feel their life is in danger. And I shouldn't feel my life is in danger from the cop even if they're pointing a weapon at me. I mean the point of making this discussion isn't to confirm what the rules are but to maybe discuss how the rules should be a bit different.  Thanks for your opinion. 

[Jesterr]

I'm assuming this is in reference to my current report I have out. I'm not going to comment about that, but I will say that in any general situation (IRL), if you have a gun pointed at you, you would usually comply with their orders, and not focus on changing your radio freq. 

 

Again, rules are rules, so nothing you can really do about them. I respect your opinion though.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Callaway

[Freclan]

 

So that's it then? Black and white? No nuance at all?

Pretty much, that's how the fear rp rule works. You don't know if the cop isn't going to shoot you, you can only assume

[cheatonus]

I think that makes for some pretty limited RP. Not very realistic, either. 

[Freclan]

 

I think that makes for some pretty limited RP. Not very realistic, either. 

Well if the fear rp rule changes everyone would run when PD point a gun, leaving us the only option to taze people. Not gonna be very fun if I'm honest

[cheatonus]

Oh, that's too bad. Would hate to ruin your fun while I watch people DM each other in prison. So sad! But in all seriousness, you have a lethal force matrix already. And you shouldn't be shooting someone if they run away anyway. 

[Freclan]

 

Oh, that's too bad. Would hate to ruin your fun while I watch people DM each other in prison. So sad! But in all seriousness, you have a lethal force matrix already. And you shouldn't be shooting someone if they run away anyway. 

You're completely correct, we do have a lethal force matrix. The criminal doesn't know if he's dealing with a corrupt cop, he doesn't know if the cop has been given orders to shoot if he makes a sudden movement. I think it should stay as it is.

[Cyrus Raven]

Feels like changing frequencies shouldn't be a priority after you've crashed your car and are at gun-point, you might think you have nothing to fear, but for all you know Police could have information of you carrying heavy weapons or any other IC information that would put you at a higher risk of being shot, especially something that involves sudden movements. In essence, you should value your life while at gun-point, complying with police and anyone else holding you up. 

Furthermore, it feels like this is trying to justify winning mentality. You're essentially saying that players, especially criminals, should be able to ignore 8+ cops around him with weapons drawn all in order to change a radio frequency they know will most likely get confiscated and monitored. Plenty of criminals change their radio once they know the chances of them getting out of the situation are slim, this is the correct approach, doing it while at gun-point because you forgot or wanted to stay a bit longer on frequency shouldn't be a thing. 

[cheatonus]

Fair enough. I can see both argument. Thanks for the response. 

[eradicati0n]

Its better to follow the rules of FRP as a black and white concept rather than trying to add a grey area in there, otherwise the forum reports will immediately start to flood in. Officers seem to have a good grasp of value in terms of getting their suspect alive and relatively unharmed, and handle the use of force continuum well.

 

You may think an officer wouldn't shoot you, but if you reach for your radio, you could easily be calling 10 or 20 heavily armed men to descend on that location, which could result in lethal force from the officer. That's a good enough reason to leave your radio well enough alone, especially if you're already RPing injuries or fear

[WernerBerg]

Alright, so does not matter if 10 cops aiming heavy weapon at you and demanding to stop and you just keep moving while thinking about that cops won't shoot me? HUGE -1. FRP is FRP does not matter if you a criminal, cop, or civilian.

[Actualbears]

-1 

Fear RP is already a joke when it comes to dealing with LEO's, Quite a number of suspects we have to deal with on a daily basis, low level nobodies or high ranking members of gangs don't really take cops serious. Even if they're surrounded by some SWAT lads and refuse to do anything at the risk of being tased/smacked with batons, We have to breach our own force protocol at times just to make criminals comply with our orders, in which puts us at risk for an OOC/IC IA report because of us having to withdraw our guns on a handcuffed suspect just to make them follow basic commands.

A good example would be of this video from a code one, We had two suspects in custody. Lola Millers simply making mindless banter and insults despite being surrounded by officers and handcuffed in the back of the cruiser and Mr.Curtin simply not giving the slightest of fucks at the risk of being electrocuted by myself or beaten into a pile of meat with my baton. It wasn't until Chief Bacon himself stepped out to withdraw his pistol and had to breach force continuum, as us doing it first would of probably resulted in myself or the other SWAT operative on scene getting reported for OOC corruption by any players lurking around.  Even if we were forced to do it and baited ourselves into an internal affairs report due to the suspect breaching the fearrp rules.  I'm not sure what we would of done with the female suspect already in the back of the car, Usually one wouldn't talk shit when they're taken hostage/kidnapped by gangs. But we just found her banter annoying and ignored her. 

And if we did withdraw our guns firstly to get Mr.Curtin in, It would of just made PD seem more 'blue man bad' as we always seem to go for our guns first.

As for the incident, Things were worked out with the player (Darragh) on an OOC level. I felt like this could be used as a good example.

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by Actualbears

[Machete]

 

 

-1 

Fear RP is already a joke when it comes to dealing with LEO's, Quite a number of suspects we have to deal with on a daily basis, low level nobodies or high ranking members of gangs don't really take cops serious. Even if they're surrounded by some SWAT lads and refuse to do anything at the risk of being tased/smacked with batons, We have to breach our own force protocol at times just to make criminals comply with our orders, in which puts us at risk for an OOC/IC IA report because of us having to withdraw our guns on a handcuffed suspect just to make them follow basic commands.

A good example would be of this video from a code one, We had two suspects in custody. Lola Millers simply making mindless banter and insults despite being surrounded by officers and handcuffed in the back of the cruiser and Mr.Curtin simply not giving the slightest of fucks at the risk of being electrocuted by myself or beaten into a pile of meat with my baton. It wasn't until Chief Bacon himself stepped out to withdraw his pistol and had to breach force continuum, as us doing it first would of probably resulted in myself or the other SWAT operative on scene getting reported for OOC corruption by any players lurking around.  Even if we were forced to do it and baited ourselves into an internal affairs report due to the suspect breaching the fearrp rules.  I'm not sure what we would of done with the female suspect already in the back of the car, Usually one wouldn't talk shit when they're taken hostage/kidnapped by gangs. But we just found her banter annoying and ignored her. 

And if we did withdraw our guns firstly to get Mr.Curtin in, It would of just made PD seem more 'blue man bad' as we always seem to go for our guns first.

As for the incident, Things were worked out with the player (Darragh) on an OOC level. I felt like this could be used as a good example.

 

Cops are not going to start blasting because you just resist arrest or talk shit to them unless you're RP'ing WW2 german state police.

You rather point a taser and assault rifle instead of RP'ing it properly. No instead you breach the force continuum to ruleplay him into the vehicle because you're not intrested in roleplaying your actions?

You have a way of putting him in the car using /me's or /do's yet why didn't you? 

Its easy to judge others actions instead of looking at your own.

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by NM369

[alexalex303]

 

You rather point a taser and assault rifle instead of RP'ing it properly. No instead you breach the force continuum to ruleplay him into the vehicle because you're not intrested in roleplaying your actions?

Pointing a taser in the context of a suspect resisting arrest is very realistic. 

[cheatonus]

For the sake of argument or discussion, wouldn't it be more appropriate to threaten the character with more resisting charges vs. fatal methods? And beyond that if it continues for a long time with no RP wouldn't that become an OOC/non-rp issue?  I can't figure a point in time during an arrest when the person has been subdued and cuffed and is being put into a car that threatening their life would be an appropriate course of action for a police officer. I understand the need to keep it IC and to avoid power gaming by forcing the person into the car, but ultimately that's what a cop would do. They'd either call for a van type vehicle which they could carry the person into our they would attempt to force them into the cruiser. Frankly, a cop should feel, on some level, that they have little power in these situations because their gun should only be used for self defense.  Your options are physically force the person to get in the vehicle and/or continue to stack resisting charges on them. Police shouldn't use deadly weapons to force compliance to unarmed or disarmed people, that's what criminals do.  

[Actualbears]

Threatening to stack/add charges for a suspect actively resisting arrest or putting up a verbal argument and being non-compliant is what gets an officer called a piece of shit over ooc. You can talk to mostly any experienced officer who's been in PD for three months that's been in the situation of using charges as a means of threats is what causes people to make ranty forum posts calling out PD for giving them extra time for failing to follow orders or resisting arrest instead of complying with a taser pointed at their face. We also have strict guidelines about stacking charges, which is why we don't use them for threats. 

Edited August 20, 2020 by Actualbears

[Machete]

 

Pointing a taser in the context of a suspect resisting arrest is very realistic. 

??? He was surrounded by 4Cops, searched and cuffed so he didn't have anything that could hurt you. If he tried running he'd be apprehended. Its okay to keep it in your hand cause you can't stop him cause no one is typing that /me that fast. You're more likely to taze your allies. Its just plain ruleplay over roleplay in that video. I'd expect higher standards.

[cheatonus]

 

Threatening to stack/add charges for a suspect actively resisting arrest or putting up a verbal argument and being non-compliant is what gets an officer called a piece of shit over ooc. You can talk to mostly any experienced officer who's been in PD for three months that's been in the situation of using charges as a means of threats is what causes people to make ranty forum posts calling out PD for giving them extra time for failing to follow orders or resisting arrest instead of complying with a taser pointed at their face. We also have strict guidelines about stacking charges, which is why we don't use them for threats. 

I think you should spend a bit of time watching what happens IRL with criminals, especially hardened criminals, in the face of a taser. They're not scared.  And frankly, again, a taser is a weapon of self defense not a weapon of compliance.  It can also be used to stun the person so you can immobilize them to detain them. But I've never seen a cop threaten a perp with a taser or firearm because they were getting yelled at or the person was resisting getting in a vehicle.  You may want a swift clean arrest, but that's just not going to happen most of the time, and it doesn't happen that way IRL either.  You're talking about a person who is about to ICly, and I dare say in some ways, OOCly lose their freedom for a long period of time.  If they're OOCly stalling or insulting thats a /report. If it's IC keep it that way and behave ICly like a cop should.  Use weapons for their intended purpose from a cop's standpoint which isn't intimidation and compliance, but self defense.  If it takes you a half hour to get that guy in a car and you can't come up with a creative way to solve the situation ICly that's on you.  I' mean, I'm sorry for your frustration but as a criminal I'm about to have to go deal with shitty prison RP for the next how many hours... you can deal with my resistance in a professional manner without resorting to intimidation. I shouldn't have to fear for my life during an arrest after I've been detained no matter how verbally abusive I am or how much I resist getting in the car.  

[FrankieP]

 

This is in response to a current report and some comments I've seen made by officers in game. Why shouldn't a suspect continue to talk on their radio and/or change frequencies when an officer of the law has them at gunpoint? I guess you could make the argument the officer might thing the suspect is reaching for a weapon, however my opinion is we shouldn't have to be afraid a cop is going to kill us unless we're trying to kill a cop. The officers and likely 5-10 officers already have me at gunpoitn why would I try to reach for a weapon?  Is a cop really going to shoot a suspect for talking on a radio? Doesn't seem like something that would warrant lethal force to me.  To me there's a completely different dynamic to having a criminal have you at gunpoint than an officer having you at gunpoint. I'm never afraid a cop is going to shoot me unless I'm also shooting at them. Not sure why I should be worried about reaching over with my hand to my ear and saying something on my radio, I hope to god an officer of the law wouldn't gank me for that and I don't think FRP should apply because no character should fear for their life under gunpoint of a police officer in that way. Just my opinion, please roast accordingly. 

I've been thinking this lately and I agree 100%. Realistically, a cop is NOT going to shoot you for changing frequency. It's not something thay warrants lethal force (same applies to many situations in this server where cops decide to shoot).  A criminal does not care about keeping you alive or arresting you, therefore being shot is absolutely something they can threaten for changing freqencies.

 

 

Fear rp is fear rp.  Rules apply to everyone no matter who is holding the gun. 

You failed to present an argument here? This attitude is very reductionist and completely negates the difference between cop and crim roleplay. The motivations for actions and the actions performed are completely different.

 

 

Feels like changing frequencies shouldn't be a priority after you've crashed your car and are at gun-point, you might think you have nothing to fear, but for all you know Police could have information of you carrying heavy weapons or any other IC information that would put you at a higher risk of being shot, especially something that involves sudden movements. In essence, you should value your life while at gun-point, complying with police and anyone else holding you up. 

Furthermore, it feels like this is trying to justify winning mentality. You're essentially saying that players, especially criminals, should be able to ignore 8+ cops around him with weapons drawn all in order to change a radio frequency they know will most likely get confiscated and monitored. Plenty of criminals change their radio once they know the chances of them getting out of the situation are slim, this is the correct approach, doing it while at gun-point because you forgot or wanted to stay a bit longer on frequency shouldn't be a thing. 

Changing your frequency with 8 cops around you isn't ignoring you, it's making sure the freq isn't compromised, and your allies aren't caught, at the expense of bringing on charges of failure to comply/obstruction of justice. NO cop would realistically begin firing upon a suspect for changing frequency, it's simply not something that happens. If you start shooting, then that really shows you're not here to RP. Accusing crims of having a winning mentality is ironic for a cop lol. The situation I just described would not be a complete win for the criminal, because any time a crim makes PD's job harder ICly, or even dares to argue his case, they get charged stacked to oblivion.

 

 

-1 

Fear RP is already a joke when it comes to dealing with LEO's, Quite a number of suspects we have to deal with on a daily basis, low level nobodies or high ranking members of gangs don't really take cops serious. Even if they're surrounded by some SWAT lads and refuse to do anything at the risk of being tased/smacked with batons, We have to breach our own force protocol at times just to make criminals comply with our orders, in which puts us at risk for an OOC/IC IA report because of us having to withdraw our guns on a handcuffed suspect just to make them follow basic commands.

A good example would be of this video from a code one, We had two suspects in custody. Lola Millers simply making mindless banter and insults despite being surrounded by officers and handcuffed in the back of the cruiser and Mr.Curtin simply not giving the slightest of fucks at the risk of being electrocuted by myself or beaten into a pile of meat with my baton. It wasn't until Chief Bacon himself stepped out to withdraw his pistol and had to breach force continuum, as us doing it first would of probably resulted in myself or the other SWAT operative on scene getting reported for OOC corruption by any players lurking around.  Even if we were forced to do it and baited ourselves into an internal affairs report due to the suspect breaching the fearrp rules.  I'm not sure what we would of done with the female suspect already in the back of the car, Usually one wouldn't talk shit when they're taken hostage/kidnapped by gangs. But we just found her banter annoying and ignored her. 

And if we did withdraw our guns firstly to get Mr.Curtin in, It would of just made PD seem more 'blue man bad' as we always seem to go for our guns first.

As for the incident, Things were worked out with the player (Darragh) on an OOC level. I felt like this could be used as a good example.

 

This is just Curtins expressing his IC personality. He's unarmed and surrounded by SWAT, he poses no threat to any of you, do you feel it would be realistic and good RP to shoot him for refusing to get in the car (which, I must add, is an IC thing, hence the 'failure to comply' charge). The option to rp dragging him into the cruiser was always there, or maybe you just want to stay there swinging about your heavy weapons? Beating Curtins almost to death with a baton would most definitely be corruption, which requires ooc permissions as you well know. I fail to see your point here. Pulling out the micro on an unarmed man was very poor RP, unless you have ooc corruption permissions and are tryna play pvp simulator.

 

I agree with everything @cheatonus and @NM369 said

[eradicati0n]

Honestly this thread is nuts with some heavy bias on both sides. Both Police and Crim RP could be improved through more reasoned and realistic RP on both sides.

 

It seems that crims on this server hate PD with a passion IC, and some even OOC, just for doing their job. To fight back against that, they promote stale and frankly boring RP of verbally abusing PD at any opportunity, stalling arrests for no reason, pointless non-compliance and just generally poor RP.

 

PD get fed up of having to deal with it and are maybe a bit too quick to use force, either through weapons or forcible server commands.

 

Both sides are guilty of some pretty poor RP, though general attitudes to RP seem to have changed slightly in that both sides will engage in some better RP given the chance. However, both sides need to improve their attitudes and work to be more realistic, though I do personally feel this is more of a Crim-sided issue

[cheatonus]

I wouldn't call it nuts, it's just a discussion. Bias is normal, and the idea behind discussion is to try to break through some of that and get to an agreement on some things.  Some of this bias boils down to the fact that none of us are criminals or cops OOCly and generally want to feel like we have a fair OOC playing field and the GAME is fun for everyone. Criminal players incur pretty heavy penalties for choosing to play a criminal character.  There is some inequity there in my opinion. Playing a criminal character requires far more willingness to understand that there will be times you're not going to be able to do the RP you want to do because you're going to sit in a prison for, IMO, far more time than is necessary for an IC punishment.  Sure cops have IC paperwork, etc, but is that really the same as sitting in DOC watching people DM each other or ERP in front of you without your consent... for hours? I don't think so. It's my personality when I see an inequity or I perceive and unfairness to say something and try to have an open dialogue about it.  And as you can see from other threads I've been a part of and even comments I've made in this thread I'm willing to conceded points when they're well reasoned and well argued. Frankly, to say "RP BETTER!" isn't very constructive. We could all do better in many cases, sure, but that doesn't really get to the underlying issue of whether or not the rules accurately allow for proper RP in certain situations. And maybe it's OK that they don't... but I'm still going to say something if I feel something is way out of kilter. 

Edited August 20, 2020 by cheatonus

[eradicati0n]

 

I wouldn't call it nuts, it's just a discussion. Bias is normal, and the idea behind discussion is to try to break through some of that and get to an agreement on some things.  Some of this bias boils down to the fact that none of us are criminals or cops OOCly and generally want to feel like we have a fair OOC playing field and the GAME is fun for everyone. Criminal players incur pretty heavy penalties for choosing to play a criminal character.  There is some inequity there in my opinion. Playing a criminal character requires far more willingness to understand that there will be times you're not going to be able to do the RP you want to do because you're going to sit in a prison for, IMO, far more time than is necessary for an IC punishment.  Sure cops have IC paperwork, etc, but is that really the same as sitting in DOC watching people DM each other or ERP in front of you without your consent... for hours? I don't think so. It's my personality when I see an inequity or I perceive and unfairness to say something and try to have an open dialogue about it.  And as you can see from other threads I've been a part of and even comments I've made in this thread I'm willing to conceded points when they're well reasoned and well argued. Frankly, to say "RP BETTER!" isn't very constructive. We could all do better in many cases, sure, but that doesn't really get to the underlying issue of whether or not the rules accurately allow for proper RP in certain situations. And maybe it's OK that they don't... but I'm still going to say something if I feel something is way out of kilter. 

Prison times are definitely up for debate and it is a discussion that should be had. IMO, the rules allow for a decent variance of RP regardless of (most) scenarios, though when it comes down to RP with Police, there isn't much that can be done, just as there is not much that could be done IRL. Comply or don't comply. IMO, complying offers more RP advantages if you're already at gunpoint. You could snitch for less jail time, comply for less jail time, find out more about police operations or tendencies through carefully guided conversation etc.

 

Of course, there's a place for not complying. If you're carry heavy weapons, you've just committed murder or you know you have charges on you, by all means don't comply. When I say that we should have better RP in regards to dealing with police, I more aim that at the people who just harass or stall police just because "hurr durr fuck 12"

[Copperhorse]

 

Fear rp is fear rp.  Rules apply to everyone no matter who is holding the gun. 

As if rules are applied equally to everyone. Come on now don't kid yourself.