PD + Guns

[EL Doggo]

i dont know if this in a IC problem or not however im seeing a lot of player reports recently of an officer pointing a gun at criminals in cars/on the street/during chases, i cant speak for every situation as i dont know what crimes have been committed but i think a lot of these reports could be avoided if officers used the taser they are provided, like maybe im an idiot but why was the "tackle" add to the server if not to be used by officers in foot chases and such, i get majority of people are in gangs and are massive threats and flight risks, but a lot of people me including have got in trouble because in my opinion "an officer cant just shoot you for running/walking/driving away" now... tackle me YES, taze me YES, i feel a gun should be a final resort obviously unless the criminal has a past of shooting officers, has been in an active shoot out, has been suspected of murder, terrorism, basically anything that requires a GUN, i dont know maybe im a fool but i'd like other peoples opinions on the matter PD and Crims alike

this post is not intended as a dig at anyone i just want peoples opinion 

[HobGoblin]

Firstly the tackle is shit for foot pursuits, it's not like the fivem servers you have been on. On ECRP the tackle doesn't tackle in front of you, the player has to touch the other player. The only times this works is if the suspect running turns back around. On other servers you can be behind them and tackle while running.

If you evade a gun is getting pulled on you. There are other reasons as well that cops pull guns and not tazers, most of the time the suspect is armed with a gun and it makes no sense to have a tazer out.

[Clank]

As an LEO Roleplayer, If I am in a foot pursuit chasing down a single suspect and I am by myself - I will have my handgun out. If I am in a foot pursuit and I have an ally with me, one of us will hold lethal while the other one holds less-than.

[Rosalia Hall]

as someone who mained crim for a long time and recently went PD, most of the time guns are pulled when the suspect has been hostile or the situation was hostile. i always have my tazer and so does every cop i partner with. tackle is hard when crims just dont comply or even roleplay with us. either way, all the reports are due to rulebreaks... not what we do icly. 

Edited November 19, 2024 by Rosalia Hall

[EL Doggo]

okay so the tackle is pretty pointless overall then xD, i agree a officer alone, the precaution of a firearm is acceptable, but i dont see the reason for lethality ALL the time, can you imagine IRL every time an officer does a traffic stop he "unracks his M4 Carbine" (i know IRL every traffic stop isn't a hardened gangbanger) and i also do see ALOT of people not RPing being tased and just getting back up and running so maybe that also adds to the negligence of tasers, perhaps its a problem on both ends 

[JWIT1]

I won't repeat with the previous members have said, but I do agree with their points/see where they are coming from.

There are so many IC regulations, policies and protocols that are set in place by LEO factions, and are ones that faction members should abide by.  Certain divisions/branches of these LEO factions will have slightly altered regulations when it comes to firearm deployment etc.

What I can recommend is, and I know it sounds cliché, but if you feel like guns are being used/deployed for very little to no reason, then file either an IC or an OOC Internal Affairs (IA) report with the faction depending on the situation.  From actively being in IA for a legal faction, to being IA'ed multiple times and from knowing how these reports are handled, I can assure you that reports are taken seriously and are reviewed to maintain both IC and OOC standards of the respective faction.

Edited November 19, 2024 by JWIT1

[Clank]

8 minutes ago, EL Doggo said:

okay so the tackle is pretty pointless overall then xD, i agree a officer alone, the precaution of a firearm is acceptable, but i dont see the reason for lethality ALL the time, can you imagine IRL every time an officer does a traffic stop he "unracks his M4 Carbine" (i know IRL every traffic stop isn't a hardened gangbanger) and i also do see ALOT of people not RPing being tased and just getting back up and running so maybe that also adds to the negligence of tasers, perhaps its a problem on both ends 

It honestly depends on the context. If you're pulling someone over that has a track record of being arrested with class 2s, you tend to lean on the side of caution.

[EL Doggo]

im not here to report people or anything like that i just wanted to see everyone's opinion crim and police alike, its very easy for a crim to judge the action of PD without ever being in their shoes, i being one of those people.

[JWIT1]

8 minutes ago, EL Doggo said:

im not here to report people or anything like that i just wanted to see everyone's opinion crim and police alike, its very easy for a crim to judge the action of PD without ever being in their shoes, i being one of those people.

From my perspective, I do not see any over-use, and when people do overuse, it is dealt with accordingly.

I echo the words on the tackling script, and feel that if people have a M4 unracked on a traffic stop, it is normally for a good reason as my fellow faction member has stated.

I appreciate the topic for opinions, I hope some other players, both crim and LEO continue comment in a positive and respective way

[jdotmo]

I think what you are trying to get at is Fear RP. I think Fear RP should not work for cops as it does criminals in a certain sense. A cop should not be able to point a gun at you to stop and instantly be able to stop an interaction because it initiates Fear RP. To your point a cop would not shoot a fleeing civilian in the back regardless of their history. The problem with this is if a cop knows your armed with a gun this cant apply. Cops like to camp stores when stores start to get hit back-to-back. So, if a cop rolls up on you mid robbery you should be able to run. But since you have a gun on you they have the right to use force. It's a tricky situation. ECRP is more of a strict/serious COP rp than other servers. All in all, every situation is different, but I know from my crim past it was really annoying walking out of an ammunition with no windows to be greeted by cops withs ARs and if you take another step, you breach fear RP. Even tho you never had any intention to fight the cops. 

Part of what makes crim life enjoyable is cop chases. But a lot get neutralized before it can get to that point. On the other hand getting in a cop chase everytime you see a criminal would probably not be enjoyable for cops either. 

Edited November 19, 2024 by jdotmo

[alexalex303]

You can not tackle people that are running away from you because everyone runs at the same speed in this game, you will simply fall behind them. It would work if you made cops faster than everyone else on foot, but that might not be ideal.

If people wish for it to not be fear RP to run away from cops then I agree fully, with the condition that shooting them in the back is not DM. They can pursue IC avenues if they feel it was unjustified but if its DM to shoot them and its not fear RP to run at gunpoint then it just powergaming.

[Quietthecutie]

So this is kinda a 3 pronged discussion:

1. Do we feel it is realistic for cops to pull their gun on a criminal?

2. Do we feel it is beneficial for the server that the ruleset and in particular FRP allows this to happen?

3. Do we feel like cops pointing guns at you should mean the same as a crim pointing a gun at you in terms of FRP?
 

For all questions I believe context is key. I have hundreds of hours in both my crim and my LEO so i have a fairly broad perspective in this one. Heres a fairly typical scenario:

 youre a cop in a city rife with crime, you have been chasing a criminal through the streets in an extremely dangerous pursuit, said criminal has stalled their car, units are on scene, said criminal is trying to restart their engine. Is the cop justified both icly and oocly to pull their gun?

Answer: Almost certainly. The criminal has already displayed utter disregard for the life and safety of themself and others through their own actions by leading a dangerous pursuit. a vehicle in the wrong hands is a deadly weapon. furthermore the LEO has no idea if the person is armed, what their intentions are, if they have called for backup etc. there are so many unknown factors at play that yes, the cop is justified to draw and point their firearm both as a precaution and to force the criminal to stop trying to restart their vehicle, restart the pursuit, and cause more danger to the public.

Heres another scenario:

An officer was driving by when they noticed a person acting suspiciously next to a parked vehicle. they get out to investigate and see the person is clearly trying to picklock the car. when they confront the suspect regarding it, the suspect starts running. is the LEO justified in drawing their firearm and aiming it at the suspect?

Answer: Probably not. whilst the person is fleeing from the cops they have not presented any violent or dangerous intent, merely theft. they dont appear to have a weapon on their person and are not presenting a threat to the LEO or bystanders. in this scenario the Taser is the much more reasonable option.

This is what the taser is designed for. it is not a catchall non lethal option cops must use unless they are shot at. cops can and will draw their firearms in scenarios where they feel someone is presenting a danger to themselves or others or they suspect foul play such as deliberately stalling for backup.

So, the final question, should a cop aiming a gun at you place you under the same FRP as a criminal?

Answer: I believe so. at the end of the day a gun is a gun. something which has the potential to end your life in an instant should the persons finger so much as twitch on the trigger. in that scenario, it wouldnt matter if the person holding the gun was dressed like a cop or like a clown. any reasonable thinking person would do everything in their power to not motivate that person to pull the trigger. 

This is one of the more annoying aspects of LEO RP. people presuming or even flaunting the idea that the cop isnt allowed to shoot you. I have seen people with multiple heavies pointed at them at close range, run away, walk about, fail to comply, try to get into a passing car, talk shit, behave erratically, all manner of things which I find massively NRP Ruleplayey and just plain not fun.

So in closing, no a cop should not pull his gun out for every scenario, but based on a persons criminal history, recent acts, words, actions, a whole bunch of things that dont involve them being armed, they can be justified in doing so, both ICly and OOCly

A final point, i can understand a lack of perspective when it comes to certain stances on this, not everyone is an LEO, which is why its important to be open minded on their decisions. LEO characters come under the highest scrutiny when it comes to their roleplay, both Icly with the likes of internal affairs and supervisors and oocly in forum reports, ooc corruption etc. many a cop has been sacked/banned for violating this.

The application and training process for an LEO is easily the most rigorous on the server. you must be able to demonstrate a long track record of being an experienced roleplayer who positively contributes to the server and have minimal admin punishments. you must also complete a month long training programme where you are constantly scrutinised by your superiors/trainers who will have the decision of weather or not you make the grade. again, this is not a matter of simply clock on and eventually youll pass. many applicants do not get accepted and many trainees do not make the grade and are dismissed. in brief all cops are highly motivated to not abuse their power or exceed reasonable escalation and force continuum.

Sorry for the rant, been a long day 
 

 

 

[Demonmit1]

7 hours ago, EL Doggo said:

but i dont see the reason for lethality ALL the time, can you imagine IRL every time an officer does a traffic stop

from what I can recall, and seen lately, cops will pull a lethal weapon for a felony stop. if you're evading, thats a felony, and i see that as justification to have lethal force quickly useable, by having a firearm out.

Should LSPD become more strict in following/enforcing their force continuum? extremely. but thats an issue to bring up with their faction command or LFM, not really a server rules issue.

Edited November 19, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Rosalia Hall]

6 hours ago, jdotmo said:

I think what you are trying to get at is Fear RP. I think Fear RP should not work for cops as it does criminals in a certain sense. A cop should not be able to point a gun at you to stop and instantly be able to stop an interaction because it initiates Fear RP. To your point a cop would not shoot a fleeing civilian in the back regardless of their history. The problem with this is if a cop knows your armed with a gun this cant apply. Cops like to camp stores when stores start to get hit back-to-back. So, if a cop rolls up on you mid robbery you should be able to run. But since you have a gun on you they have the right to use force. It's a tricky situation. ECRP is more of a strict/serious COP rp than other servers. All in all, every situation is different, but I know from my crim past it was really annoying walking out of an ammunition with no windows to be greeted by cops withs ARs and if you take another step, you breach fear RP. Even tho you never had any intention to fight the cops. 

Part of what makes crim life enjoyable is cop chases. But a lot get neutralized before it can get to that point. On the other hand getting in a cop chase everytime you see a criminal would probably not be enjoyable for cops either. 

you rob a store armed -> the cashier calls 911 -> cops go and check cctv and see the store is robbed by a guy with a gun -> we investigate.

cops will start checking other stores as 95% of the time… criminals will hit multiple stores in a row. we don’t get alerted until after you guys are done robbing, therefore most of the time, you are gone by the time we get there. it isn’t camping, its doing our job.

fear rp shouldn’t change just because we are doing our faction duties. what you are wanting is for cops to allow you to walk away from your actions with no consequences and thats not realistic in itself. 

every cop i know enjoys the chase but having to deal with people who refuse to comply and just disregard their life/roleplay to run at gunpoint isn’t enjoyable.

 

Edited November 19, 2024 by Rosalia Hall

[Requiem]

To clarify from a server rules perspective when it comes to Fear RP, the rules exist as they do so they are applied consistently across the board for ALL players, regardless of what faction you are in or what the roleplay scenario is, or even what your character is roleplaying as. This makes the rule easy to understand and easy for players to follow, as well as allow for the server administration team to enforce the rule justly to everyone. 

[Toxine]

4 hours ago, Requiem said:

To clarify from a server rules perspective when it comes to Fear RP, the rules exist as they do so they are applied consistently across the board for ALL players, regardless of what faction you are in or what the roleplay scenario is, or even what your character is roleplaying as. This makes the rule easy to understand and easy for players to follow, as well as allow for the server administration team to enforce the rule justly to everyone. 

Does it really apply to all factions? 

How would you consider an Helicopter being shot by at least 5000 bullets a minute, circling back instead of leaving the area? Wouldn't that be considered as breach of FearRP? 

Because that's what happened at the Kutte Throat operation, when the gangs were holding the roof, an helicopter started getting shot by over 60 people with heavy weapons, and instead of completely leaving the area, said helicopter kept flying at very close range instead of caring/fearing for their lives. (This is one of many many many examples, which I can list if needed)

And I don't mean to throw shade in any way, I'm just underlining the fact that there are some discrepancies when it comes to illegal vs legal factions, and there's no denying that.

[Bala]

44 minutes ago, Toxine said:

Does it really apply to all factions? 

How would you consider an Helicopter being shot by at least 5000 bullets a minute, circling back instead of leaving the area? Wouldn't that be considered as breach of FearRP? 

Because that's what happened at the Kutte Throat operation, when the gangs were holding the roof, an helicopter started getting shot by over 60 people with heavy weapons, and instead of completely leaving the area, said helicopter kept flying at very close range instead of caring/fearing for their lives. (This is one of many many many examples, which I can list if needed)

And I don't mean to throw shade in any way, I'm just underlining the fact that there are some discrepancies when it comes to illegal vs legal factions, and there's no denying that.

Differences, yes. Discrepancies? No. While the above clip is from a movie, it's a movie based on real life events. Some situations require you to risk your life.
Law Enforcement or Soldiers don't necessarily abandon their mission because they get fired upon.

No character should disregard the possibility of death but it's also what you train for. The militia in that clip are locked in, fighting for their lives. The soldiers in the heli are tasked with performing a rescue.

I wouldn't expect anyone in Kutte Throat to be running from the gun fight, crim or cop tbh.

[Toxine]

28 minutes ago, Bala said:

 Some situations require you to risk your life.
Law Enforcement or Soldiers don't necessarily abandon their mission because they get fired upon.

Yeah but if I do that I get Fear RP. How's that reasonable?

 

29 minutes ago, Bala said:

No character should disregard the possibility of death but it's also what you train for.

Where's our option as a crim to choose death over being arrested? The cop loses nothing if they decide to give up and run away. A criminal loses money, equipment, vehicles and all of that if they decide to just give up. 

How is it possible that such actions are permitted as an LEO but not as a criminal, when in reality it should be the other way around?

[Diligo]

34 minutes ago, Bala said:

 

The video you chose to show how you felt isnt how any PD works.
To be honest any PD that I have seen IRL use helicopters for Recon not as Air-Tanks which can only be shot down with RPGs



I know you guys feel like youre in a war zone but if we showing examples from where we got the roleplay inspiration lets just use the appropriate ones.

you are not in Afghanistan youre in LA type of city fighting against crackhead bikers with bunch of stolen carbine rifles not highly militarized Jihadists from Call of Duty Modern Warfare 4 alright?!!!!

Though when I think about it, if you get shot at 500 bullets I would suggest to not suddenly roleplay as if your helicopter is any different than my picture above.
Meaning - MAYDAY MAYDAY WE GETTING SHOT AT I REPEAT WE ARE RETREATING SEND IN THE NATIONAL GUARD!!!
not like just circling around and bing chilling if ya know what i mean man haha just chill guy

[Clank]

4 hours ago, Nikolia said:

you are not in Afghanistan youre in LA type of city fighting against crackhead bikers with bunch of stolen carbine rifles not highly militarized Jihadists from Call of Duty Modern Warfare 4 alright?!!!!

The server we play on is literally more violent than Afghanistan. You don't see gang convoys chasing each other down, setting up ambushes or using body armor in Los Angeles do you?

I think your entire argument is one giant fallacy if you're going to pick and choose where the realism line comes into place. 

[Demonmit1]

9 hours ago, Toxine said:

helicopter started getting shot

staff have ruled that helicopters are not subject to fearRP.

[Requiem]

On 12/10/2024 at 4:02 AM, Demonmit1 said:

staff have ruled that helicopters are not subject to fearRP.

This is not true in the slightest. The administration team does not rule on something like this and make a blanket statement saying helicopters are never subject to FearRP. There may be specific situations where something was or was not ruled as a rule break, but each situation is unique. 

 

On 12/9/2024 at 6:05 PM, Toxine said:

Does it really apply to all factions? 

How would you consider an Helicopter being shot by at least 5000 bullets a minute, circling back instead of leaving the area? Wouldn't that be considered as breach of FearRP? 

All server rules apply to ALL players, regardless of faction. If you feel a rule was broken in relation to a situation, you are allowed to submit a report for the situation and the staff team will review accordingly. If you disagree with a decision made by a staff member, you are welcome to submit a decision appeal to have it re-reviewed by a more senior administrator. 

[Jett_J]

On 12/9/2024 at 5:05 PM, Toxine said:

Does it really apply to all factions? 

How would you consider an Helicopter being shot by at least 5000 bullets a minute, circling back instead of leaving the area? Wouldn't that be considered as breach of FearRP? 

Because that's what happened at the Kutte Throat operation, when the gangs were holding the roof, an helicopter started getting shot by over 60 people with heavy weapons, and instead of completely leaving the area, said helicopter kept flying at very close range instead of caring/fearing for their lives. (This is one of many many many examples, which I can list if needed)

And I don't mean to throw shade in any way, I'm just underlining the fact that there are some discrepancies when it comes to illegal vs legal factions, and there's no denying that.

This is just false.

I was in the buzzard that got shot at initially and we did retreat as the helicopter's engine was failing. The helicopter broke down at pillbox and we got picked up by a deputy who took us to SD's garage in the city.

 

[Bala]

4 hours ago, Jett_J said:

This is just false.

I was in the buzzard that got shot at initially and we did retreat as the helicopter's engine was failing. The helicopter broke down at pillbox and we got picked up by a deputy who took us to SD's garage in the city.

 

Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story though Jett

[Eliza]

From my experience, context really is everything in situations like this. My main criminal character has a pretty extensive record and a history of negative interactions with cops, but when I play on my LEO character, I’ve honestly only seen weapons pulled during traffic stops when the person is known IC to be a gang member, has shot at cops before, or is coming from something like a shootout.

I get that it can feel over the top sometimes, but if you think about it from the officer’s perspective, if someone’s got a track record of attacking you or being a public threat, wouldn’t it make sense to take precautions? I agree that tasers and tackles should be used more often in standard situations, but when it comes to known dangerous individuals, I can understand why some officers lean toward being safer than sorry.

I think the balance comes down to recognizing the difference between a regular LEO vs Criminal interaction and someone who’s proven to be a problem. It’s not a perfect system, but I’d say context is key here.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Eliza
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