FM 2.0 Discussion/Feedback POST RELEASE

[Bakmeel]

Feedback and suggestions are welcome.

Stay respectful.

No +1/-1 or comments that don’t add anything useful.

[Eliza]

was a pretty good update tbh

having an F4 menu faster just makes things so much easier being able to handle money that won't randomly get taken away by fines from arrests and stuff like that since it's secure in the treasury

Edited November 22, 2024 by DontSniffSugar

[Demonmit1]

alright, so this is something ive been brewing for a little while now. just to preface this, in no way, shape, or form am I targeting a single faction, this is just overall for every faction, even my own faction im in, cause we've had our fair share of rule breaks too.

Whats the point of listing out very specific demotion factors if they are not going to be enforced? 

- More than 2/3/4 rule breaks within your faction over a period of 30 days.
- More than 1/2 rule breaks by command members over a period of 30 days.
- Failing to uphold faction lore.
- Poor RP standards.
- Poor OOC attitude

Why are the very clearly defined demotion factors not being enforced? Is it not being tracked? or is it just not a concern for FM to enforce? The concept of regular tier promotions and demotions was extremely interesting the moment FM 2.0 was released. but the demotion side of it is not happening. why?

[Arnis]

I agree with you @Demonmit1 it feels like the demotion factors are being cherypicked as we all know we see quite alot of reports but nothing happens to them on the FM side of the squale

[Toxine]

I want to say that the whole idea of having a clear structure and guidelines for factions to follow and uphold, is very good. 
But there are just so many things that are unknown. 

I'll try to be as objective and unbiased as possible in this post, I don't want this to sound like I'm trying to vouch for someone or trying to throw dirt towards any factions. 

My main issue with the current system is with the management of the tiers of several factions, there's factions that are very active and provide RP material for everyone on the server, whereas there are other factions on the same tier that are virtually non existent. 
(I consider myself very active in the city, and I have both a Criminal character and a fairly new LEO character, therefore having a lot of interaction with criminals from both characters). 

There are just some gangs that I truly haven't met in over 4 months of being part of the city, which makes me wonder how have they managed to reach the tiers that they are in. 

I will take Empire as an example (I'm not part of Empire, nor I've ever been, I take them as an example because they are placed in the middle of the pack [Tier1 to Tier7] and they are very active), this faction is currently at tier 3, which is relatively good. And in my opinion, they fully deserve it. 
Empire has been providing a lot of RP to everyone in the server, with their events at Avalon Knight Club, their Raffles, then as an actual illegal organization, Empire is very active at labs, providing opportunities for enemy gangs to push them, creating criminal interactions between fights, they push people, they chop cars, they do bank robberies alone and with other gangs. Additionally, they can be easily identified and seen around the city because they wear their colors, drive vehicles that are painted with their gang's colors, and all that good stuff. Which is overall an amazingly good impact on the server and the community.

Whereas there's factions that are the same tier, and even some that are higher, that don't provide even a fraction of the RP that Empire provides. I've never seen a single event hosted by some of these gangs, I very rarely encounter them around the city, their presence at drug labs/chop shops is very very rare, sometimes even nonexistent. Without mentioning how some of these gangs wear whatever clothes they want, drive whatever vehicles they want, paint them random colors that don't pertain to the gang (some of them even enemy gang colors, which is crazy RP-wise).
Which makes me wonder, how is it possible that some gangs are considered equals (or better) than the above mentioned gang?
What are the criteria that these gangs have met in order for them to be deserving of the same perks of gangs that bust their ass 24/7 organizing events, providing RP to other criminal factions, showing faces at events hosted by citizens/other gangs? 

How is it possible that the work some gangs put in the server goes unrecognized and/or disregarded? Whereas the lack of effort from other gangs gets rewarded? 

I understand that there's also a time thing involved in the criteria, which is fair, but if some factions can't keep up with the criteria they need to be demoted. 
And if the answer to the questions is "They used to be active in the past with events, crimes, etc.."; then why is it that they are still on the same tier when they aren't putting the same effort as they did in the past? 

And, again, I took Empire as an example, not because of any bias, it's purely an objective opinion. Im not trying to promote/oppose their faction.
Taking them as an example, the same opinion works for other factions (that I don't want to name), which have put A LOT of effort and still find themselves struggling and/or finding themselves on the same tier as some factions that barely do anything.
 
There's factions that are way higher on the tier list, that in the 4 months that I've been part of the city (every single day for 5-10 hours a day), I've NEVER seen organize a public event, I've NEVER seen hold drug labs, I very rarely have had some significant RP going with them (And it's not a question of timezones, I'm present on every timezone, and it's not a question of "oh but that's just you", it's literally the fact that their presence is minimal). 
What are they doing? How are they gaining/maintaining tiers?  

__________________________________________________________________________________________
In the "Requirements" of the Factions Guide, it is mentioned: 
- Have been a positive contribution to the community
- The faction has shown sufficient growth in developing lore/roleplay standards/activity

What's the "positive contribution" that these factions have made? How have they positively impacted the community/server, when no public encounter is made, no interaction can be seen, no events are hosted, and no criminal interaction is done (no lab holding, no lab pushing, no chopping at public places, no joint bank robberies)?
How are they developing their lore when everyone drives whatever they like, dresses how they like, own houses wherever they like?

And, one of the main aspects for demotion is "Poor RP Standars", such as (but not limited to):

- Maintaining a poor RP standard.
- Displaying a constant negative attitude towards other factions.
- Low in-game activity over a period of 30 days.

There are illegal factions (that I'm not going to name, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people already know) that don't provide any type of positive interaction whatsoever, to other illegal factions. There are a few of these gangs that are "enemies" with literally every gang out there. 
How can a gang that is literally beefing everyone, outside of labs too, be regarded as "high RP standard"? How are they positively impacting the community when they are actively trying to go out of their way to be enemies with 90% of other gangs? 

Also, I don't really think that the report segment of the demotions should weigh as much as it does. The faction is the only thing that doesn't change, the members are a variable. In case heavily reported members of a faction don't get kicked/warned by the faction, then yes, I'd agree for that to weigh on the promotion decision. Also, I'd agree if the reported players were high ranks in the faction, which is a different matter.
The tier list should be a reflection of how good a faction is handling themselves as what they're trying to portray. Not how good of players they are, that's what admin punishments are for. 

Why is it that if an LEO gets warned, reported, banned, etc.. nothing happens? What are the repercussions of legal faction for such situations? Why does an entire illegal faction have to suffer for the actions of certain individuals?
You could try as much as you want to vet someone, but you will never be able to prevent a player from breaking a rule (especially nowadays when people try to nitpick every single interaction just to find the smallest rule break). 
I'd get it if the player is Mass DM'ing, Mass metagaming, being an absolute dick OOC, and overall having a very prominent negative impact on the community, but just because someone made a small mistake that got reported and accepted, 29 other people should suffer the consequences of it? 
__________________________________________________________________________________________
The guidelines imposed by FM are very good and I believe that it's a step in the right direction. 

But why is it that the illegal factions have to suffer more consequences than legal factions? How is it possible that legal factions have way more leniency when it comes to demotions and require the bare minimum for their rank-up?
Why does it have to be such a huge disparity between legal and illegal factions? Shouldn't Illegal factions be incentivized since the majority of the player base is illegal (395 current gang members based on the Panel, and that's just for official gangs, without counting the solo crims and small groups of friends doing crimes.) Isn't a criminal in the server more prone to rulebreaks just because of the nature of their roleplay? Shouldn't this be taken into consideration as well?

Don't get me wrong, OOC'ly I have no issues whatsoever with any faction, nor do I have any grudges against specific individuals of a specific faction. If the factions I'm referring to are able and willing to put in more effort to provide more for the community and be a positive impact, I'd be more than happy to see them climbing the tiers, it just makes everything else more fun. 

With that being said, thank you to everyone putting time and effort on improving the community!

Edited December 8, 2024 by Toxine

[Teenyinnit]

As it stands I like FM and they way it’s been presented, however I do agree with the poor RP standards thing.

 

the poor RP standards should be the number 1 thing used for demotion as this is what will encourage less of the clapper mentality we’ve been seeing.

 

[OBESE]

On 12/8/2024 at 10:32 PM, Toxine said:

I want to say that the whole idea of having a clear structure and guidelines for factions to follow and uphold, is very good. 
But there are just so many things that are unknown. 

I'll try to be as objective and unbiased as possible in this post, I don't want this to sound like I'm trying to vouch for someone or trying to throw dirt towards any factions. 

My main issue with the current system is with the management of the tiers of several factions, there's factions that are very active and provide RP material for everyone on the server, whereas there are other factions on the same tier that are virtually non existent. 
(I consider myself very active in the city, and I have both a Criminal character and a fairly new LEO character, therefore having a lot of interaction with criminals from both characters). 

There are just some gangs that I truly haven't met in over 4 months of being part of the city, which makes me wonder how have they managed to reach the tiers that they are in. 

I will take Empire as an example (I'm not part of Empire, nor I've ever been, I take them as an example because they are placed in the middle of the pack [Tier1 to Tier7] and they are very active), this faction is currently at tier 3, which is relatively good. And in my opinion, they fully deserve it. 
Empire has been providing a lot of RP to everyone in the server, with their events at Avalon Knight Club, their Raffles, then as an actual illegal organization, Empire is very active at labs, providing opportunities for enemy gangs to push them, creating criminal interactions between fights, they push people, they chop cars, they do bank robberies alone and with other gangs. Additionally, they can be easily identified and seen around the city because they wear their colors, drive vehicles that are painted with their gang's colors, and all that good stuff. Which is overall an amazingly good impact on the server and the community.

Whereas there's factions that are the same tier, and even some that are higher, that don't provide even a fraction of the RP that Empire provides. I've never seen a single event hosted by some of these gangs, I very rarely encounter them around the city, their presence at drug labs/chop shops is very very rare, sometimes even nonexistent. Without mentioning how some of these gangs wear whatever clothes they want, drive whatever vehicles they want, paint them random colors that don't pertain to the gang (some of them even enemy gang colors, which is crazy RP-wise).
Which makes me wonder, how is it possible that some gangs are considered equals (or better) than the above mentioned gang?
What are the criteria that these gangs have met in order for them to be deserving of the same perks of gangs that bust their ass 24/7 organizing events, providing RP to other criminal factions, showing faces at events hosted by citizens/other gangs? 

How is it possible that the work some gangs put in the server goes unrecognized and/or disregarded? Whereas the lack of effort from other gangs gets rewarded? 

I understand that there's also a time thing involved in the criteria, which is fair, but if some factions can't keep up with the criteria they need to be demoted. 
And if the answer to the questions is "They used to be active in the past with events, crimes, etc.."; then why is it that they are still on the same tier when they aren't putting the same effort as they did in the past? 

And, again, I took Empire as an example, not because of any bias, it's purely an objective opinion. Im not trying to promote/oppose their faction.
Taking them as an example, the same opinion works for other factions (that I don't want to name), which have put A LOT of effort and still find themselves struggling and/or finding themselves on the same tier as some factions that barely do anything.
 
There's factions that are way higher on the tier list, that in the 4 months that I've been part of the city (every single day for 5-10 hours a day), I've NEVER seen organize a public event, I've NEVER seen hold drug labs, I very rarely have had some significant RP going with them (And it's not a question of timezones, I'm present on every timezone, and it's not a question of "oh but that's just you", it's literally the fact that their presence is minimal). 
What are they doing? How are they gaining/maintaining tiers?  

__________________________________________________________________________________________
In the "Requirements" of the Factions Guide, it is mentioned: 
- Have been a positive contribution to the community
- The faction has shown sufficient growth in developing lore/roleplay standards/activity

What's the "positive contribution" that these factions have made? How have they positively impacted the community/server, when no public encounter is made, no interaction can be seen, no events are hosted, and no criminal interaction is done (no lab holding, no lab pushing, no chopping at public places, no joint bank robberies)?
How are they developing their lore when everyone drives whatever they like, dresses how they like, own houses wherever they like?
 

Hey, I just want to touch on the first part of your reply as I feel like my faction partially would fall under your questions - how do they progress. The simple answer would be that even you being active for so many hours, we do not roll in the same circles and we don't entertain unrealistic RP. What do I mean by that? Well my factions has built itself on representing an authentic way of portraying a high class criminal organisation. Up until this day, although we are Tier 3, we do not tell anyone our name until we feel like the individual or other faction should know it. Showing respect to them we say our factions name.

As we stay true to our lore to the core and rarely sidetrack, with the experience that we have, we have established ways how we do things and one of the most important aspect of these things are to be quick and discreet when performing any type of mission. We are not interested in waiting in a lab until we get pushed and possibly smoked. We do not crave for some street cred, we dont wish for gunfights without a reason because it is not smart. We are trying to show that we are a smart organisation that knows what they are doing with minimal hustle.

When it comes to LEO, you can look up my character. I've been playing since 2019 and been part of several top organisations and yet I've been behind the bars just couple of times, because I dont want, nor need to have interactions with LEO's. I dont need them to know about me, I dont need them looking into me, because it opens way more opportunities,

What you're saying, we got told from our FM handlers as well, they wanted to see more public activity from us, all the things you mentioned and we did. What did it improve? Nothing! All it did was brought report from us and against us and bunch of negative interactions with other gangs. Sorry, but not sorry for not wanting to have that.

In the end what Im trying to say is that just because you dont see someone following the usual Default Danny style faction activities and behaviour doesn't mean there is no improvements to the rp. I would say that if you would actually ran into us and have interaction with my faction, you would actually appreciate and understand our Rp and how we benefit the server with it!

Check out our weekly activity posts in our faction thread and you will see that we do participate in the events, it's just that you dont attend those events or you just simply don't know that we exist.
 

Edited December 10, 2024 by OBESE

[Toxine]

EDITED as it was out of topic.

Edited December 10, 2024 by Toxine

[Requiem]

Please keep it on topic here. This thread is for FM feedback - suggestions to FM regarding what you like/dislike with the new system. There is no reason to be mentioning legal factions or debating with one another about specific illegal factions. Most importantly, keep it respectful. 

[alexalex303]

On the positive side, I think everyone can agree that making the F4 menu easier to obtain for factions was a great decision and it has already seen many benefits including less ooc chat usage during roleplay, being replaced with f4 chat.

On the concern side, the concern I've heard the most from friends and other people in factions is enforcing the rules set in the original post; it seemed like the rules made it impossible for factions that focus a lot of pvp to remain at a specific tier because they inevitably break a rule and get punished, however, this does not seem to be enforced, or mass exceptions are being given to factions. 
I believe that this should be addressed either way, either you feel the original rules were too strict, and wish to relax them, or you feel that enforcement hasn't been a priority and you'll look to change that, but any random person can take a look at the player report section and point out situations in which a faction should've lost a tier (or 6, in some cases), and it has not happened. 

[Jordan]

20 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

On the positive side, I think everyone can agree that making the F4 menu easier to obtain for factions was a great decision and it has already seen many benefits including less ooc chat usage during roleplay, being replaced with f4 chat.

On the concern side, the concern I've heard the most from friends and other people in factions is enforcing the rules set in the original post; it seemed like the rules made it impossible for factions that focus a lot of pvp to remain at a specific tier because they inevitably break a rule and get punished, however, this does not seem to be enforced, or mass exceptions are being given to factions. 
I believe that this should be addressed either way, either you feel the original rules were too strict, and wish to relax them, or you feel that enforcement hasn't been a priority and you'll look to change that, but any random person can take a look at the player report section and point out situations in which a faction should've lost a tier (or 6, in some cases), and it has not happened. 

My thoughts exactly.

[Bakmeel]

Thank you for your feedback.

FM will be on a ROH for the holiday season. We will use this time to review our guidelines to check if any changes need to be made.

[Smoke1]

On 12/8/2024 at 2:32 PM, Toxine said:

But why is it that the illegal factions have to suffer more consequences than legal factions? How is it possible that legal factions have way more leniency when it comes to demotions and require the bare minimum for their rank-up?
Why does it have to be such a huge disparity between legal and illegal factions? Shouldn't Illegal factions be incentivized since the majority of the player base is illegal (395 current gang members based on the Panel, and that's just for official gangs, without counting the solo crims and small groups of friends doing crimes.) Isn't a criminal in the server more prone to rulebreaks just because of the nature of their roleplay? Shouldn't this be taken into consideration as well?

Just wanted to let you know, FM is only for illegal factions LFM would be the one to look into possible changes to punishments or whatever to legal factions

[Jordan]

I wanted to add one small thing. This is kind of highlighted in the guide to the tier system, but I think we should either enforce it more, or make it more apparent that some of the activity from some factions on the forums hasn't been the best. I feel the more you rise through the tiers the higher the standard you're held to. I feel like some forum activities such as: Repeated offenses in the way of: Petty reports, continuous back and forth arguments (on said reports) should be punished either more heavily. I've seen it happen quite a bit lately and its breeding a really toxic environment. 

Thats just my take, do with it as you will.

[Jordan]

On 12/13/2024 at 8:36 AM, Bakmeel said:

Thank you for your feedback.

FM will be on a ROH for the holiday season. We will use this time to review our guidelines to check if any changes need to be made.

Any update on this? Or is it still being looked into?