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Bala

The Art of Gang Warfare

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I'm going to speak long-term, because this is not something that happened over night.

Some of us will remember late 2018 and early 2019 as a good time, but also kind of a over-the-top TDM-like server. You could give demands out of a moving vehicle and shoot people over them. It was probably too much.

 

Then around 2020 came the public robbery rules and more involvement from Faction Management into factions, both for factions that were official and those aspiring to be official.

I think this is around the time when the line crossed from a good balance and started going into too much. There were complaints from a lot of faction leaders that faction management is smothering them. The public robbery rules were great for civilian roleplayers that could no longer be robbed getting gas, but they also allowed bad gangs to hide behind them. No solution was ever put in place for that.

I will not speak for anyone else, or claim that this is the reason some factions chose to close, but this is around the time when we lost a lot of good factions from the server. We also lost some very good players, some were banned, some chose to leave. 

 

As time went on, things got even more strict and I feel that we are now a time where we no longer say "Shooting someone without a valid reason is bad", but we say "Shooting someone is bad".

I don't know exactly who and why this was decided, but it seems relatively clear that the vast majority of the community does enjoy the shooting aspect of roleplaying. I do not mean the "clapcrews" which revolve solely around shooting, but, naturally, through roleplay shooting will happen in gang roleplay. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

However, I would not feel comfortable roleplaying a criminal character in the current year, because it feels, both from the server rules and the player report archive, that you're just not supposed to shoot anymore, ever, for any reason. It's always bad and heavily discouraged.

Add onto that that people are more likely to get banned for deathmatching than they are for combat logging, and it creates a very bad cycle where people are discouraged from doing what they want to do, and even worse, some people are hiding behind these rules to win conflicts that they would otherwise have lost. It's very disheartening to see, even as someone that has no horse in the race. 

 

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55 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

I'm going to speak long-term, because this is not something that happened over night.

Some of us will remember late 2018 and early 2019 as a good time, but also kind of a over-the-top TDM-like server. You could give demands out of a moving vehicle and shoot people over them. It was probably too much.

 

Then around 2020 came the public robbery rules and more involvement from Faction Management into factions, both for factions that were official and those aspiring to be official.

I think this is around the time when the line crossed from a good balance and started going into too much. There were complaints from a lot of faction leaders that faction management is smothering them. The public robbery rules were great for civilian roleplayers that could no longer be robbed getting gas, but they also allowed bad gangs to hide behind them. No solution was ever put in place for that.

I will not speak for anyone else, or claim that this is the reason some factions chose to close, but this is around the time when we lost a lot of good factions from the server. We also lost some very good players, some were banned, some chose to leave. 

 

As time went on, things got even more strict and I feel that we are now a time where we no longer say "Shooting someone without a valid reason is bad", but we say "Shooting someone is bad".

I don't know exactly who and why this was decided, but it seems relatively clear that the vast majority of the community does enjoy the shooting aspect of roleplaying. I do not mean the "clapcrews" which revolve solely around shooting, but, naturally, through roleplay shooting will happen in gang roleplay. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

However, I would not feel comfortable roleplaying a criminal character in the current year, because it feels, both from the server rules and the player report archive, that you're just not supposed to shoot anymore, ever, for any reason. It's always bad and heavily discouraged.

Add onto that that people are more likely to get banned for deathmatching than they are for combat logging, and it creates a very bad cycle where people are discouraged from doing what they want to do, and even worse, some people are hiding behind these rules to win conflicts that they would otherwise have lost. It's very disheartening to see, even as someone that has no horse in the race. 

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. I love the Criminal RP side of ECRP, however I am also very uncomfortable playing how I want to play because of the reasons above. Good choice of words 🙂 

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18 hours ago, Bala said:

We've over-balanced the scales basically to the point it's negatively impacted the criminal side of things.

I have read the whole thing but I think this is the key take-away. It wasn't wrong to make the changes that have been made, but they have adversely affected things at the same time. I'm a big proponent for letting the RP speak for itself, and I would like things to change towards this end. I do think it's important we stay tactful and mindful of others if we are permitted more freedom however, conflict shouldn't be forced on those that aren't interested and haven't made IC actions towards initiating conflict, even if they are playing a criminal. Your freedom to RP how you want should not come at the cost of others freedom, which is one of the things I witnessed during my early time in the server.

Gangs that wish to shoot at each other with ADEQUATE build-up and tension should be allowed to do just that, whilst those wishing to get heavier in their style of roleplay should also be left to their own devices to do just that. We need a healthy balance, people shouldn't feel afraid to do things but should also equally always think about doing the right thing, that will be fun for themselves and the person on the other side.

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On 11/10/2021 at 9:28 PM, alexalex303 said:

I'm going to speak long-term, because this is not something that happened over night.

Some of us will remember late 2018 and early 2019 as a good time, but also kind of a over-the-top TDM-like server. You could give demands out of a moving vehicle and shoot people over them. It was probably too much.

 

Then around 2020 came the public robbery rules and more involvement from Faction Management into factions, both for factions that were official and those aspiring to be official.

I think this is around the time when the line crossed from a good balance and started going into too much. There were complaints from a lot of faction leaders that faction management is smothering them. The public robbery rules were great for civilian roleplayers that could no longer be robbed getting gas, but they also allowed bad gangs to hide behind them. No solution was ever put in place for that.

I will not speak for anyone else, or claim that this is the reason some factions chose to close, but this is around the time when we lost a lot of good factions from the server. We also lost some very good players, some were banned, some chose to leave. 

 

As time went on, things got even more strict and I feel that we are now a time where we no longer say "Shooting someone without a valid reason is bad", but we say "Shooting someone is bad".

I don't know exactly who and why this was decided, but it seems relatively clear that the vast majority of the community does enjoy the shooting aspect of roleplaying. I do not mean the "clapcrews" which revolve solely around shooting, but, naturally, through roleplay shooting will happen in gang roleplay. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

However, I would not feel comfortable roleplaying a criminal character in the current year, because it feels, both from the server rules and the player report archive, that you're just not supposed to shoot anymore, ever, for any reason. It's always bad and heavily discouraged.

Add onto that that people are more likely to get banned for deathmatching than they are for combat logging, and it creates a very bad cycle where people are discouraged from doing what they want to do, and even worse, some people are hiding behind these rules to win conflicts that they would otherwise have lost. It's very disheartening to see, even as someone that has no horse in the race. 

 

 I like reading what you wrote and agree with most of it but with the whole "shooting RP" that also goes for criminals interactions with cops (we're talking shootouts here) and not just crim on crim shootouts, I am really curious to know what changed because you were one of the people provoking IC situations in your own IC ways and when things did escalate and shootouts took place you complained and was one of the people to report thus you seem to be criticizing it now, which takes us back to why it was decided that shooting is wrong (your question) and it is people who did not like the outcome of those shootouts creating waves where an influx of players make it a trend to start reporting a certain thing because player a got a nonrp for doing something everyone has always been doing .

Prime example : 

Criminals set an ambush after you ICly harassed and chased them , they took matters ICly so they set up an ambush, yes it was messy but it was provoked on your end, however in this scenario here a report like this got multiple people banned and things like this set precedence and discourages such behavior, same goes for all the reports done during wars between gangs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I 100% Agree with the point that crims need to stop using player reports as a way to fight each other. Nothing is better than 2 gangs that are RPly rivals and fight each other on a day to day but don't have any OOC conflict or active player reports against one another. There was a 5 day period where royals and BSB where constantly getting into RP situations with each other and shootouts and escalation and what not and both parties where having a very good time doing so, even when we lost I still had so much fun. There was no OOC tension or anything, it was just 2 gangs that genuinely enjoy RPing with each other and getting into situations. However this is a rare case nowadays. Now I am not saying when someone blatantly breaks the rules dont report him, of course go for it. However some reports against rival gangs have become so petty and serve no other purpose but to take the rival gang down in an OOC way. Which is not the attitude rival gangs should have with each other at all. 

Now if you look at it from an LEO perspective, no hardcore crims = no fun.
As a LEO you heavily rely on crims to start situations for you. For example robbing stores/banks, shootouts on the street ect. If those dont happen then being a LEO wont be nearly as fun as it is. Of course as LEO you can engage in other RP and you should, however without the hardcore crims and gangs in the server you would get bored fast.

Pretty much criminals are a core aspect of the server and if they continue to get mistreated then it will lead to unfortunate circumstances.

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On 11/11/2021 at 10:04 PM, Bala said:

@CalvinKlein That's not what the topic is about, if you want to discuss it, then make your own thread please.

Keep it on the topic at hand.

I, and many others, honestly want to know what changed your opinion? The report he mentioned was the reason behind implementing the rules in this thread(such us joint freq and back up rule) and seeing the results of the report, explains everything in my opinion. Do you think such kind roleplay scenarios(mass cops and crims shootouts) should be allowed? 

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7 hours ago, Danyby said:

I, and many others, honestly want to know what changed your opinion? The report he mentioned was the reason behind implementing the rules in this thread(such us joint freq and back up rule) and seeing the results of the report, explains everything in my opinion. Do you think such kind roleplay scenarios(mass cops and crims shootouts) should be allowed? 

Because bringing the report  up in my thread ends up derailing the conversation, because derailing the conversation gets the topic locked, because the topic being locked means the issue gets ignored, because the issue being ignored means that it doesn't get resolved.

But to answer your final question, it's all about WHY something is happening for me, not WHAT. 

If 5-6 vehicles are chasing one car, there are certain circumstances of why that makes sense but only certain circumstances. Being at "war" doesn't really make it make sense, but kidnapping someone from your gang for example does.

Does 40 guys on the same frequency make sense? Brother, having a gang running around with walkie talkies period doesn't make sense but it's somewhat necessary to communicate at times. The problem isn't necessarily all the people on a frequency but the alliances in general. If they are for a common goal, then those alliances should be temporary. You can't have two factions at #1, there is only one so alliances should be temporary but based on what the RP situation is at that time.

In terms of the big shootouts, I have be honest here and say that when they occasionally happen, I don't know about you but they are pretty fun to be a part of. If they are in moderation, I really don't see them as a bad thing. 

The only thing that server staff in my opinion need to do when it gets too bad, is just bring in an OOC ceasefire for a day or two, let people do their RP and calm down, then if the RP is still there for a row, go back to it. 

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Eclipse RP is a PVP server with some roleplay aspects. 60% RP, 40% PVP.

If server management really wants to increase the roleplay standards, they should strictly enforce portrayals.

  1. Character Portrayals : Characters, simply, should make sense, think like as if it was in real life. A lot of poor examples in LSPD includes a 25 years old Police Cadet who owns 2 exotic sport cars, a field training officer who is also a mechanic at LSC at the same time, wow! And a command/staff officer who owns a whole ass corporation. Not only in LSPD though, there is quite a lot more of other examples.
  2. Gang Portrayals : Lore should be based on gangs in Los Angeles County. As of now, it seems like people can create whatever gang they want, buy the fastest cars to maximize their PVP experience rather than finding something fitting for their character.
  3. Map Portrayal Los Santos is Los Angeles. San Andreas is California. Why do I see random weird decorations and Spanish flags around the map?

Although I called out some people in LSPD faction, I have sheer amount of respect for their leadership (some staff officers), I really do. I can see that some of them are really experienced in roleplay. And although I'm not in the faction anymore, I can notice their efforts in improving the roleplay quality.

If you ask me? Changes should start with legal factions. They are the core of the server. If the roleplay standards from legal factions are not that good, not much can be expected from illegal RPers either.

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@Thommy Didn’t you call a criminal a retard on a scene, disconnect and leave the server in the brief time you were training to be a cop?

I would take your comments more seriously if I took you more seriously but to be frank, people in glass houses should not be throwing stones. 

Obviously you spent time in other servers and maybe you think that we should be like them. My advice to you, since I assume you still want to play here, is to complain less and try to adjust more to the way things are done in Eclipse. We are our own server with our own values and expectations, focus on reaching those as a player first and then you’ll gain credibility to make a post like you just made.

That being said, this thread is not about the LSPD or any other faction. It’s about the attitude towards violent roleplay in Eclipse. 

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The amount of people that have used terms such " nervous"and "anxious" while playing what should be a fun experience shows it's not a fun environment. 

As for the rules there is no consistency to how punishment s are handed out. Not to mention massive gender discrepancy from some staff when dealing with situations and reports.

I think it all started to go wrong with official gang nonsense, and the expectations that because they have 8 people and you are 2 you can't say bad things to them as it's now fear rp. Numerous times in my 4 years I have been in situations where the group with larger numbers lose. But that's dead now essentially as a small group has no chance to be "official" and therefore can't engage in hostile rp. Anyone should be able to form a gang organically or for mutual benefit. It's like going going to a party and the host saying " fun will begin at 7 and must stop at 7:45 " those are shit party's!

 

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Haven't really been on the server for a while but recently came back due to the recent rule changes and my question is simply why it took so long for such changes to occur? This isn't meant to be disrespectful to the staff team but as far as I know at least in my 3 years on the server the DM rules have always allowed constant ruleplaying due to the way they were written yet time and time again suggestions were put out to improve this with no results until now. When the robbery rules first came out in 2020 while everyone agreed it was a good change for civilian RP it was made aware to Faction management they were extremely damaging to illegal RP which if you look at any reports from 2020 proved to be true allowing for more ruleplaying. During the time of constant suggestions going out to improve these two rules to allow for more roleplay over ruleplaying genuinely decent Factions have closed, players who contributed a lot to the server have left or either banned.

People taking things to the player reports section over just dealing with things IC has been an issue due to the staff team allowing it and because the server gave these players who only cared about winning the tools to do so. I seen a fair few comments of people saying they are nervous to engage in illegal rp or shootouts due to fear of taking a punishment regardless of them actually doing anything wrong but this has been said a lot a year or two ago this isn't anything new. Server management needs to take a more proactive approach to implementing changes and listening to the community because in my opinion these changes were due long ago. 

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@Bala

This discussion is not about PD, but it's about PD. You say the server should, and I quote; "Work with the criminal role-players to amend the rules and expectations of criminals in the server, in a way that both encourages roleplay but also, a certain amount of action in the server." as if illegal roleplayers on this server are the ones at fault for the underlying PVP problems when PD/SD mostly contribute towards it. Again, I did and still see a lot of efforts from some staff officers in improving the roleplay quality, but my point still stands. When I was trying to roleplay a rollover realistically during a pursuit, a training officer told me that "no one cares, and they will be pissed of. OOC reputation is as important as IC reputation". I can give you at least 3 more examples to show how most LSPD faction members on this server just want to shoot and chase criminals rather than roleplaying or developing their characters. You know this if you truly have 15 years of roleplay experience.

My actions the day I resigned do not mean anything because it was all IC, and I left the faction in good OOC terms. I frankly don't care what you think of me as a person because that is irrelevant. I was merely giving my opinion to the issues of the server. I may have not been involved in roleplay communities for as long as 15 years like you, but law enforcement roleplay is my thing. I do not have to be in the faction to see how PVP oriented PD/SD are. You don't have to be ignorant to this issue.

You were right I wanted to be apart of this community, which is why I even submitted a new application to the faction. But after learning some truths about this community, I'd rather not, so I thought I might as well give an honest feedback about PD to other criminal roleplayers out there.

Good luck trying to improve the community. I also did see a lot of efforts from you, but maybe you should recognize your own issues as well.

 

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@Thommy I'll be honest, the only reason why I even mentioned you in the first place was because I found your comments misguided and quite hypocritical. With one hand talking about how we should be doing things then on the other, doing the exact sort of thing in-character or not that is against what you are trying to preach. I watched you from the moment you joined PD and straight away, it's talking about how this should be different and that should be different, instead of actually focusing on the process of learning what being a cop in Eclipse means and how to do it. Likely in part, because in addition to being in our PD, you were in also in GTA World's PD.

GTA World is a server with a completely different experience to Eclipse. People might "ooooh he mentioned another server" but honestly, they're very good at what they do and that's why they are successful. Text Roleplay, with a heavy emphasis on character development and quality of role-play interaction. It was the same with LS-RP in SA:MP, same kind of mentality. Eclipse right off the bat is not comparable to GTA World. There is a huge disparity between text and voice roleplay.  But overall, both servers have evolved around a certain kind of roleplay and become successful because they cater to those particular needs. GTA World is like a Michelin Star Restaurant, Eclipse is McDonalds. Both serve different very different food for very different clientele. We might not write Shakespeare in the chat-box or delve deeply into our character's back stories but what we do, we do very well. I'd be bored off my tits on GTA World, because that style isn't for me anymore.

Without Eclipse, I wouldn't be involved in RP anymore. Short of building my own, this community is my community. While I might have dabbled in other servers, this is home, as is. Yeah it could absolutely be better but when Eclipse is good, it's fucking sexy.

PD and SD are both reactive factions, which means that situations have to begin in order for us to respond. No crime, no cops. No criminals, no DOC. No injuries, no MD. Part of the reason why I've put so much effort into trying to improve the criminal side of things is for the betterment of my own faction and my own enjoyment of the server. I'm not the Mahatma Gandhi of Eclipse, I'm doing this as much for myself as anybody else.

We're the PD for the server we have/had. I can appreciate people like yourself or even some of the staff team wanting Eclipse to be something different but that's never going to happen.

There are only two ways which a shift like that can be achieved. One, you start out with it as the foundation of your community in the beginning or Two, you commit to it wholeheartedly in every single area of what you do. It's fine adding robbery rules and joint-frequencies rules and all this, but when you don't update the new player quiz or make the right faction official or whatever all at once, then you're just plugging holes in your ideal and it'll never come to fruition. 

My initial post which seems so long ago at this point is essentially when it comes to Eclipse, just let a ho be a ho. We're not that Michelin star restaurant, we're Maccie Ds. Big Mac and Fries. Banana Milkshake. Action AND Roleplay. Eclipse isn't supposed to take itself too seriously. Players on this server aren't going to sit through 2-3 hours of back and forth text roleplay. They don't want it, they never wanted it and they never will want it. Maybe some will but Eclipse will never be good enough for those people.

The simple fact is, people choose to play a criminal character to be able to break the law. They choose to join a gang, knowing there will likely be gang violence but trying to sterilise that way of life or painting it as poor roleplay is counter productive. Violence for no reason is DM, but violence for a geniune reason is legit.

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On 11/28/2021 at 9:36 PM, Bala said:

@Thommy I'll be honest, the only reason why I even mentioned you in the first place was because I found your comments misguided and quite hypocritical. With one hand talking about how we should be doing things then on the other, doing the exact sort of thing in-character or not that is against what you are trying to preach. I watched you from the moment you joined PD and straight away, it's talking about how this should be different and that should be different, instead of actually focusing on the process of learning what being a cop in Eclipse means and how to do it. Likely in part, because in addition to being in our PD, you were in also in GTA World's PD.

GTA World is a server with a completely different experience to Eclipse. People might "ooooh he mentioned another server" but honestly, they're very good at what they do and that's why they are successful. Text Roleplay, with a heavy emphasis on character development and quality of role-play interaction. It was the same with LS-RP in SA:MP, same kind of mentality. Eclipse right off the bat is not comparable to GTA World. There is a huge disparity between text and voice roleplay.  But overall, both servers have evolved around a certain kind of roleplay and become successful because they cater to those particular needs. GTA World is like a Michelin Star Restaurant, Eclipse is McDonalds. Both serve different very different food for very different clientele. We might not write Shakespeare in the chat-box or delve deeply into our character's back stories but what we do, we do very well. I'd be bored off my tits on GTA World, because that style isn't for me anymore.

Without Eclipse, I wouldn't be involved in RP anymore. Short of building my own, this community is my community. While I might have dabbled in other servers, this is home, as is. Yeah it could absolutely be better but when Eclipse is good, it's fucking sexy.

PD and SD are both reactive factions, which means that situations have to begin in order for us to respond. No crime, no cops. No criminals, no DOC. No injuries, no MD. Part of the reason why I've put so much effort into trying to improve the criminal side of things is for the betterment of my own faction and my own enjoyment of the server. I'm not the Mahatma Gandhi of Eclipse, I'm doing this as much for myself as anybody else.

We're the PD for the server we have/had. I can appreciate people like yourself or even some of the staff team wanting Eclipse to be something different but that's never going to happen.

There are only two ways which a shift like that can be achieved. One, you start out with it as the foundation of your community in the beginning or Two, you commit to it wholeheartedly in every single area of what you do. It's fine adding robbery rules and joint-frequencies rules and all this, but when you don't update the new player quiz or make the right faction official or whatever all at once, then you're just plugging holes in your ideal and it'll never come to fruition. 

My initial post which seems so long ago at this point is essentially when it comes to Eclipse, just let a ho be a ho. We're not that Michelin star restaurant, we're Maccie Ds. Big Mac and Fries. Banana Milkshake. Action AND Roleplay. Eclipse isn't supposed to take itself too seriously. Players on this server aren't going to sit through 2-3 hours of back and forth text roleplay. They don't want it, they never wanted it and they never will want it. Maybe some will but Eclipse will never be good enough for those people.

The simple fact is, people choose to play a criminal character to be able to break the law. They choose to join a gang, knowing there will likely be gang violence but trying to sterilise that way of life or painting it as poor roleplay is counter productive. Violence for no reason is DM, but violence for a geniune reason is legit.

While it's probably going off topic one thing to add to this is that eclipse if anything offers the best of both worlds. As someone who has always been primarily into text rp I have always used text here too and always prefer to write out longer detailed RP. During my 3 years here having being in multiple illegal and legal factions the server was always able to facilitate that, hell even in a law enforcement faction as far as I know outside of teamspeak for tac channels people are free to use text there too. You will be pressed to find any other server that offers that freedom of playstyle anywhere else. As far as PD/SD go when it comes to the discussion of gang warfare as said already they will always be a reactive force, they simply go where the crime is and honestly over the years PD and SD has improved a lot, its not perfect but then again nothing ever will be. 

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