How table explosions are handled

[Ultra3D]

(All information Im speaking on it referencing when they explode in an apartment because that all I have experience with)

So I have been thinking about this alot recently. Two days ago there was an explosion at an apartment of someone I knew. They were showing someone recipes and unfortunately blew the table. After getting in touch with the person involved IC I was asked to try and save them and forget about the equipment. After trying our best to get into the apartment he ended up dieing. I still wanted to try and salvage the equipment. At the time there was little no no police response so I tried to run it. At the time PD/SD had not even set up scene management yet. I ran in and went to a random floor. I was then followed by SD about 15 seconds later where they instantly pulled a taser and yelled "HANDS UP NOW" I started to comply by ask why this was happening. After that a higher ranked SD came in where I asked the same question. They said "This is an active crim scene"

This is where I see an issue. After going back and forth with SD/PD and MD they told me they got a call about seeing flames. I have played PD so I know the call. So I ask them why seeing flames is a crim scene because RPly it makes no sense. FD being there to put out the fire etc makes since but making it a instant crime scene makes no sense. I understand that when that call comes in it only means one thing but I feel which how its handled makes it impossible to RP any situation out in those situations. I feel SD/PD should not be notified or even respond unless MD feels they should by seeing people with guns or AFTER entering the building seeing drug materials. Just like real life MD/FD go places without PD all the time to conduct themself. I personally feel that PD/SD saying "This is a crime scene" just after getting a "This building is on fire" call is somewhat meta. Again I understand that those calls only mean one thing but IRL fire calls get handled solely by FD/MD all the time where PD only come in after the fact/where wrong doing or malicious activity that lead to the fire. But this would only be found after the fire is already out.


Was going to post this in suggestion but wanted other opinion first.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Ultra3D

[Homast]

You say that they receive a call about seeing flames and that you're PD, but the call is more along the lines of "911 Call from PASSERBY : I heard an Explosion from X APARTMENT BUILDING FLOOR 230 "

It makes RP sense in my opinion for PD/SD to show up to a call about an explosion

What if it was terroristic in nature? What if it was somebody producing explosives? what if someone accidentally lobbed a grenade loose in their apartment?

There are numerous reasons as to why PD/SD show up to explosion calls,   

I do feel however that there needs to be some sort of rework to not allow cold tables to blow up, or to change their rate of explosion to be increased with changing the severity of the explosion depending on the heat, with Cool Level Explosions being signifcantly smaller and less punishing, while having hot explosions being quite aggressive to the point of possibly killing you, bypassing the injured phase near entirely. None the less, An explosion is an explosion, and I feel like there should be a chance tied to the severity of the explosion for it to be reported to PD/SD/MD by the random bystander thingy.
 

[Ultra3D]

1 hour ago, Homast said:

You say that they receive a call about seeing flames and that you're PD, but the call is more along the lines of "911 Call from PASSERBY : I heard an Explosion from X APARTMENT BUILDING FLOOR 230 "

It makes RP sense in my opinion for PD/SD to show up to a call about an explosion

What if it was terroristic in nature? What if it was somebody producing explosives? what if someone accidentally lobbed a grenade loose in their apartment?

There are numerous reasons as to why PD/SD show up to explosion calls,   

I do feel however that there needs to be some sort of rework to not allow cold tables to blow up, or to change their rate of explosion to be increased with changing the severity of the explosion depending on the heat, with Cool Level Explosions being signifcantly smaller and less punishing, while having hot explosions being quite aggressive to the point of possibly killing you, bypassing the injured phase near entirely. None the less, An explosion is an explosion, and I feel like there should be a chance tied to the severity of the explosion for it to be reported to PD/SD/MD by the random bystander thingy.
 

I somewhat agree and I already addressed what you said in my post. Police can show up but its usually after FD/MD is done or if there is a possibility of malicious doing. But they usually do their work after FD/MD is dont and its not considered a "Crim Scene" from the start

[Ed Johnston]

1 hour ago, Ultra3D said:

 I feel SD/PD should not be notified or even respond unless MD feels they should by seeing people with guns or AFTER entering the building seeing drug materials. Just like real life MD/FD go places without PD all the time to conduct themself.

In my 5 years of working as a Firefighter EMT, 3 of which have been full time, not once have I been to a call were there was not an officer already on scene or arrived shortly after we arrived, from  building fires to an ambulance runs.

[Ultra3D]

13 minutes ago, Ed Johnston said:

In my 5 years of working as a Firefighter EMT, 3 of which have been full time, not once have I been to a call were there was not an officer already on scene or arrived shortly after we arrived, from  building fires to an ambulance runs.

Ok but how much is the officer involved besides redirecting traffic or maybe taking a statement? My point is just because there is a fire does not mean its a crime scene, which is how its currently handled on the server. It also may be state by state but I have seen firetrucks/Ambulances respond to calls where Police are not present.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Ultra3D

[IAmTurtle]

As you know there is not enough MD/FD available at times. So it becomes times where we have to dip our feet in there stuff.

 

Secondly no pd response to an explosion? FBI and other national organizations would be there in hours to figure out what happened. 
 

Also this post seems quite ironic as the op did the exact same things on duty. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by IAmTurtle

[Ultra3D]

1 hour ago, IAmTurtle said:

As you know there is not enough MD/FD available at times. So it becomes times where we have to dip our feet in there stuff.

 

Secondly no pd response to an explosion? FBI and other national organizations would be there in hours to figure out what happened. 
 

Also this post seems quite ironic as the op did the exact same things on duty. 

When it comes to low numbers in MD I'm sure a middle ground can be found. But thanks for your amazing input trying to say I should not have this opinion because I have done this in the past but I am the same OP who advocates for people on PD to play crim and for more crim to play PD/SD so everyone can understand each side. But coming from someone who has only played in admin gangs I can see your side but I try see both sides! But true I have done it, and dont think it should happen! 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Ultra3D

[jason]

IRL police show up at any scene with potential injuries. Explosions in a high rise apartment building would warrant an outstanding police presence alongside the fire department and EMS.

[Ronnie Moretti]

Do PD rely solely on calls for this information or are they given a location via a script when a lab blows up? They always seem to instantly know where the labs are that have exploded. 
 

considering the explosions can be heard across most of the map when it happens, it would be almost impossible for PD to instantly know the location unless they or civilians are actively nearby.

[Dimja]

I dont think Ultra3Ds statement is about not having PD/SD on scene, but rather on instantly making it a crime scene, without awaiting the results. I do think PD/SD should secure the perimeter and be present, but FD should decide wether criminal activities were the cause of the explosion and then let PD/SD do the investigation.

[jason]

1 hour ago, Ronnie Moretti said:

considering the explosions can be heard across most of the map when it happens, it would be almost impossible for PD to instantly know the location unless they or civilians are actively nearby.

I'm pretty sure residents of the apartment complex an explosion happened in would be able to tell them with fairly good accuracy that it was their building.

  

47 minutes ago, Dimja said:

I dont think Ultra3Ds statement is about not having PD/SD on scene, but rather on instantly making it a crime scene, without awaiting the results. I do think PD/SD should secure the perimeter and be present, but FD should decide wether criminal activities were the cause of the explosion and then let PD/SD do the investigation.

IRL police officers wouldn't just send in FD into a potential criminally malicious explosion scene. FD is not armed to take on the types of people who are willing to blow up apartment complexes and would be alongside or following those that are armed and able to protect them.

[Ed Johnston]

11 hours ago, Ultra3D said:

Ok but how much is the officer involved besides redirecting traffic or maybe taking a statement? My point is just because there is a fire does not mean its a crime scene, which is how its currently handled on the server. It also may be state by state but I have seen firetrucks/Ambulances respond to calls where Police are not present.

From an outside perspective this is a totally valid viewpoint, and you are totally correct there are different proceedures in all areas. 

 

As for fire scene, I've quite literally had officers kick down doors and run in to make a save before we've even made entry or pulling hose along side me. Also every fire scene is also a crime scene, officers and detectives as well as fire investigators are there to determine the origin of the fire. And for an explosion you'd easily have multiple agancies both local and federal on scene in a matter of hours investigating. 

[Ed Johnston]

2 hours ago, jason said:

IRL police officers wouldn't just send in FD into a potential criminally malicious explosion scene. FD is not armed to take on the types of people who are willing to blow up apartment complexes and would be alongside or following those that are armed and able to protect them.

This, so much. You'd have Law Enforcement in first and clear it for secondary explosive devices or other threats before sending in FD to extinguish it. The higher priority is responder safety, not putting out the fire.

[Victor Einhart]

Let me get this straight.

You get a call from your buddy that his drug lab has blown up, and someone has already died in this fire/explosion. You run past officers that are already on scene into this extremely dangerous situation that has already claimed the life of one of your friends, in order to recover the illegal equipment inside.

And now you're saying it's dumb that law enforcement stopped you from trying to do this illegal activity, and more importantly stopped you from going into a situation that already killed one person, per your own admission?

What's the problem here?

[Bala]

Can't really bang the realism drum when you're using a $400,000 luxurious apartment to cook crack in.
Apartment Drug Labs don't make any sense and the server in general will be better when they don't exist anymore.

[Ultra3D]

4 hours ago, Victor Einhart said:

Let me get this straight.

You get a call from your buddy that his drug lab has blown up, and someone has already died in this fire/explosion. You run past officers that are already on scene into this extremely dangerous situation that has already claimed the life of one of your friends, in order to recover the illegal equipment inside.

And now you're saying it's dumb that law enforcement stopped you from trying to do this illegal activity, and more importantly stopped you from going into a situation that already killed one person, per your own admission?

What's the problem here?

Thats not what im saying. What im saying is that I feel that when the explosion calls come in it only means one thing. So police instantly show up and say "Its a crime scene" even though I feel its unrealistic. There is no chance for anything to happen,

[jason]

If an explosion happens in a high-rise apartment building in Los Angeles it will be declared a crime scene. I'm not sure how that's in any way unrealistic.

[Ultra3D]

26 minutes ago, jason said:

If an explosion happens in a high-rise apartment building in Los Angeles it will be declared a crime scene. I'm not sure how that's in any way unrealistic.

Because usually first FD will do their thing and say it was or rule out foul play. Fires happen all the time in LA and LAPD are not always there so idk where you are getting that information and also like I started above if pd is there they don't immediately take over the scene and call it a crime scene. They will probably be there to redirect traffic and take a statement or two.

Dimitri stated it well

"I dont think Ultra3Ds statement is about not having PD/SD on scene, but rather on instantly making it a crime scene, without awaiting the results. I do think PD/SD should secure the perimeter and be present, but FD should decide wether criminal activities were the cause of the explosion and then let PD/SD do the investigation."

Edited October 22, 2021 by Ultra3D

[jason]

FD will never go into the scene of an explosion before PD. Explosions are almost always considered criminal/malicious until proven otherwise. A fire is not the same thing as an explosion and they are not treated the same.

On 10/15/2021 at 7:59 AM, Ed Johnston said:

This, so much. You'd have Law Enforcement in first and clear it for secondary explosive devices or other threats before sending in FD to extinguish it. The higher priority is responder safety, not putting out the fire.

I feel like a 5 year firefighter EMT probably knows more about this subject than either of us.

[Bala]

I'm no firefighter but I know all about them hose.

[Viiperz]

9 hours ago, Ultra3D said:

Dimitri stated it well

"I dont think Ultra3Ds statement is about not having PD/SD on scene, but rather on instantly making it a crime scene, without awaiting the results. I do think PD/SD should secure the perimeter and be present, but FD should decide wether criminal activities were the cause of the explosion and then let PD/SD do the investigation."

I personally feel that this comment does in fact contradict its self, your main complaint is PD/SD treating the area as an active crime scene. While I have my own opinions on that, I don't just want this thread to turn into an echo chamber. Regardless of whether any LEO entity is there to either investigate the cause of the fire/explosion OR to secure a perimeter, by attempting to enter the apartment complex you are liable to be charged with failure to comply as it's highly unlikely that you'd have gotten in, if PD/SD were there to follow you to the floor you went to, that means you made the conscious decision to run past them and the outcome will still be same, no matter how the situation is addressed.

On 10/15/2021 at 1:45 AM, Ultra3D said:

They were showing someone recipes and unfortunately blew the table. After getting in touch with the person involved IC I was asked to try and save them and forget about the equipment. After trying our best to get into the apartment he ended up dieing. I still wanted to try and salvage the equipment.

Now this is where it gets a tad sticky for me, personally I would view this action as a violation of Fear RP. The first line of the rule clearly states the following:

13. Fear Roleplay (FRP)

• Fear RP is showing appropriate care and concern to preserve your character's safety and life.

Now, after knowing ICly that the person on that other side of the door is deceased, attempting to make the conscious effort to gain entry to said apartment doesn't show neither appropriate care or concern for the safety of your character. Yes you can scriptly wear a hazmat suit in order to avoid being damaged by the fumes, however there is no real world scenario where I can see any individual choosing to enter not only a burning building, but also the site of an explosion for the sake of recovering some equipment.

 

This is an opinion from a member of the LSPD faction, and while I agree that healthy discussion should be promoted and take place, I'm struggling to see what exactly it is your trying to achieve.

[Ultra3D]

45 minutes ago, ViiperzOH said:

I personally feel that this comment does in fact contradict its self, your main complaint is PD/SD treating the area as an active crime scene. While I have my own opinions on that, I don't just want this thread to turn into an echo chamber. Regardless of whether any LEO entity is there to either investigate the cause of the fire/explosion OR to secure a perimeter, by attempting to enter the apartment complex you are liable to be charged with failure to comply as it's highly unlikely that you'd have gotten in, if PD/SD were there to follow you to the floor you went to, that means you made the conscious decision to run past them and the outcome will still be same, no matter how the situation is addressed.

Now this is where it gets a tad sticky for me, personally I would view this action as a violation of Fear RP. The first line of the rule clearly states the following:

13. Fear Roleplay (FRP)

• Fear RP is showing appropriate care and concern to preserve your character's safety and life.

Now, after knowing ICly that the person on that other side of the door is deceased, attempting to make the conscious effort to gain entry to said apartment doesn't show neither appropriate care or concern for the safety of your character. Yes you can scriptly wear a hazmat suit in order to avoid being damaged by the fumes, however there is no real world scenario where I can see any individual choosing to enter not only a burning building, but also the site of an explosion for the sake of recovering some equipment.

 

This is an opinion from a member of the LSPD faction, and while I agree that healthy discussion should be promoted and take place, I'm struggling to see what exactly it is your trying to achieve.

Ill respond to this then I will ask staff to lock this topic as its just back and forth with no new ideas being brought up. In this situation you are missing every point I made and have made conclusions. Yes I did enter the building but at that point only one FD was there and two SD speaking with other people. No scene management was set up nor was it apparent that such thing was going to happen at the time. Now for the fear RP, how would me trying to recover anything be such, and as stated I was not there at first to get equipment. I was there to save the peoples lifes as when it blew they were still alive. They died as SD was moving me outside. After this point is when I tried to recover the items. RPly there is not any fire issue only a toxic fumes issue which I could have easily solved.

To answer your final question that you dont understand comes in two parts. One was the fact I feel these situation are some what metagamed/forced (not in a rulebreak sense). What I mean by this is when tables blow all LEO's and MD get the call and even though its not stated "THIS IS A DRUG LAB" all PD/SD/MD treat it as it is because those calls only mean on thing. I wanted to start a discussion about different ways this situation could be handled so its not forced as a instant crime scene for a drug lab so more RP possibility's could be had. Now for the second part. I dont know if you do or not but Im guessing by the tag under your banner that you only have played a GOV character. This leaves you in a situation were you have only really experience one side of the equation. All though this is not a bad thing I personally feel you and many others would understand the frustration of criminals/civilians when they complain about civilian/criminal issues.

 

On 10/14/2021 at 9:43 PM, IAmTurtle said:

Also this post seems quite ironic as the op did the exact same things on duty. 

As stated here ^, even though it was stated in an bad way, still shows I have done the same things I am complaining about but after experiencing both sides allowed me to see how both party's feel about these situation. So I was hoping for both sides to talk about the issues from each side and try to find a good fix that would be fun/middle ground for both party's.

Even if people don't agree its fine, that's why I posted it here instead of suggestions. All I have to say is I really hope at some point more criminals/non-gov civilians play PD/SD and that more PD/SD play and experience criminal content of the server. I feel the more this happens the more both sides will get along together and the less of a cops and robber situation it will turn into.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Ultra3D

[Zion Willard]

As of right now, the script states that it is an explosion within an apartment building. As others have stated, this does warrant and make it a crime scene. If there was a chance in the script that some tables would ignite and start a fire, start producing toxic gas, or explode, I think this would allow more of a chance for varying levels of response. 

[DaMasterSplinter]

On 10/22/2021 at 5:21 PM, Bala said:

Can't really bang the realism drum when you're using a $400,000 luxurious apartment to cook crack in.
Apartment Drug Labs don't make any sense and the server in general will be better when they don't exist anymore.

I would like to mention one thing about this, to be honest using a 400k luxurious apartment to cook cracks well we are limited to these interiors which make us available only to those, you wanna say use a property or a warehouse, well these are 3 mil+. 

Second Crim spend a lot, a lot of money during their gameplay from going to jail to buying weapons/cars. You can't say that it's their problem and they should not make crimes in the end they chose to roleplay a criminal, you can't just limit someone's roleplay because he can't afford the charges which will make just start sitting at the pier and fishing. To add to this The amount of money you lose when the thing blows up is massive, I had a personal experience where I lost 1 mil worth of equipment's in 1 week. 

Third of all, I am not sure if Crim keep gettin Nerfd because Legal people don't want criminals to be richer than them, but over the time every update fucks crim over and over from the equipment givin to PD, new rules and many stuff. To add about this I'm not sure where you all live but in generally what I know about at least where I am from is that the drug lord are way more richer than Police officers.

In the end, if we want to go over the realism, there is so many things that has to be looked over if we are talking about realism, from PD to many other things, Thanks.

[jason]

13 hours ago, DaMasterSplinter said:

I would like to mention one thing about this, to be honest using a 400k luxurious apartment to cook cracks well we are limited to these interiors which make us available only to those, you wanna say use a property or a warehouse, well these are 3 mil+. 

Buy a little 1G in the ghetto for realism if you guys wanna stick to that argument, but that's beside the point anyway. Use whatever interior you want for now as long as it's enabled to you.

Quote

Third of all, I am not sure if Crim keep gettin Nerfd because Legal people don't want criminals to be richer than them, but over the time every update fucks crim over and over from the equipment givin to PD, new rules and many stuff. To add about this I'm not sure where you all live but in generally what I know about at least where I am from is that the drug lord are way more richer than Police officers.

The average random crim in Los Angeles shouldn't be richer than legal people. That's just realism. Every update doesn't "fuck over" crims from all the new equipment given to PD or rules. Rules have gotten looser and more vaguely written for the purpose of allowing you guys more roleplay. The only "limiting" rule is the NonRP robbery rule which has overall improved civilian RP. People actually feel safe being in public or in a clothing store without the fear of just being robbed 24/7 in places where it makes no sense. Look at crim gangs that play like actual criminals and don't just grind 24/7. They lay low and keep to themselves unless they need to make a scene and it works wonderfully for them.

Every crim with tables isn't a drug lord. If you actually put in the effort to become a criminal kingpin, you absolutely make the money realistic to your role. However, as I previously said, not every random crim is a drug lord just for running one drug lab. If you want to be rich from criminal stuff, turn yourself into a criminal kingpin. There are absolutely people who do this and have done this, you aren't limited by the script or power of PD. Lay low and keep PD out of your business and they won't even be an issue in the equation as long as you keep your labs and operations running smooth.