Police Supers

[Destuin]

Just wanted to check how people generally feel about the police supers? How I understood it was that they were added as a way to sort of balance the criminals having supers. Even though it never really made sense RP wise (incoming pictures of Dubai). But now I see them using it for every chase? Elegy retros, massacro anything you name it they get the super out. This to me has always felt a little NRP, especially as they are able to access it so quickly now and there are no repercussions to crashing it or losing it etc etc. Maybe somebody from the other side could share there opinion so I could try to understand it better :).  Adding to this, it has always felt NRP that the police lockpick your vehicles? Even if they had to script wise, calling on the radio for someone to come lockpick this is pretty nuts for a law enforcement officer. They could definitely RP taking your keys and asking you to unlock it, or even taking your keys and then using lockpicks. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Destuin

[Arrta]

I can't comment on the PD Supers as I do not have a PD character, but I can on the lockpicking from observing scenes.

I have been at scenes where there has been significant desync, and the vehicle owner does not see the car where everyone else sees it.  One of these scenes I was at the guy being arrested even RPd not having a key and saying OOCly the car was on the other side of the road. Then after PD unlocked it and it resynced for him to be where everyone else saw it, right next to him, he relocked it, after RPing not having the key.. He then refused to unlock it again once more saying he didn't have it and making this claim in OOC, so PD had to pick it twice, after moving him away so he couldn't relock again.

There are also incidents of people who will not do an OOC unlock, even after the RP of taking the key is done.

Then there are the scenes they are called to or involved in where a fair portion of the people involved are dead, and can't be asked to unlock a car as they are not there (respawned and are NLRd so they cant exactly come back and unlock the car for them.)

IRL they could just use a slim jim that is found in most cruisers and pop the door in seconds. They probably have to call to have someone LP because they themselves do not have LPs.

[THNDR]

Hello!

The supers aren't that easily accessible, you need to find someone who is certified to deploy it and then have them go and deploy it. If there's not already one deployed (which usually is the case) it can take up to minutes before we have the high speed nearby. The LSPD has internal protocols as to which vehicles it can be deployed for. It will not be deployed for a normal chase, but if the vehicle is one requiring it, we may consider deploying one. 

As for the lockpicking, we strive to use keys but when it isn't possible, we need to force entry. Due to script limitations, the only way to force entry into a vehicle is by lockpicking it. 

Let me know if anything else needs to be cleared up.

[freshprinceIE]

I think that the supers are just a way to balance out the high speed vehicles. Even mid range sports cars such as the Elegy Retro Custom have much better handling and acceleration than a normal cruiser in the city. PD/SD have IC internal regulations about the use of such vehicles which I guess you could pursue ICly with the government. Overall though, with the different bikes, vehicles and helicopters available, I don't think the supers make that much of a difference. You can force a super into a mistake e.g a crash or just out drive him, but you won't lose a helicopter without some good maneuvers, routes and tunnels.

 

The lockpicking issue is more complicated. Most crims when caught just give up on RP and do not respond until you spam /b and even then they just do /license and that's it. Majority of them just want the situation over with, so the LEO just forces his RP with the crim while another LEO picklocks the vehicle. Sometimes it's just easier to picklock the vehicle rather than /me tries to search down the person for the car keys, followed by 5 messages in /b to respond to RP and so on. If this is happening to you and you are actually RPing back and forth, then I can see why it would be frustrating. Maybe you can "encourage" the RP a bit by doing some /me's too, that way they can see that you want to RP back and should RP back. For example, if you have a crash and realize that you are beat you could do a /me takes the keys from the ignition and puts them in his back pocket. This would enable further RP as the car doesn't have keys in the ignition and you can still reach them while cuffed technically to drop them etc.

[Destuin]

Hi,

So I understand the lockpick situation better now, but it wouldn't hurt to have some sort of in character word for this? As it feels a bit odd seeing and hearing them talk about bringing lockpicks to pick your vehicle. I get that it is a script limitation but I feel like there should be some form of codeword for it. As for the supers I hear what your saying I just feel they are deployed very regularly these days. I even have a clip of a cop changing super mid chase xD. But thanks for clearing this up from your side.

[LunaticFPV]

Could call the PD lockpicking "unlocks" and "impound processing" maybe?

[THNDR]

I don't see anything wrong with the lockpicking term, that's essentially what we're doing. Would just be weird if people referred it by other. We are forcing entry purposefully and that term describes our actions. 

[Actualbears]

As already said, the supers are limited to certain ranks and come with a bunch of restrictions. 

But they're needed in order to combat the people who use a VSTR with one of the certain default tires during car modding in order to bypass the server vehicle limitation and the car to zoom to 240. 

[Angelo Capone]

With regards to the supers topic, I have to agree with Destuin with part of his argument. Even though it is hard to achieve access to the vehicle i have seen on multiple occasions supers cruising around and performing routine traffic stops. I think the system to achieve them is put in place well, but perhaps a limit to how often they could be used would be nice as it feels very unrealistic a super just casually driving round the streets doing traffic stops.

[tylxrrr]

For the super thing, it doesn't really make sense RPly. I think LAPD has a Lamborghini Gallardo but I don't think it is actually used. From what I know, they are used to stop fast cars. I don't think it is really a big deal to be honest because super cars can't pit you. All they are going to do is chase you and give call outs. After some time, it will probably only be you and the super while the cruisers lag behind. You could probably then try to kill the super car driver or make them mess up, then you should have a gap. It is hard but not impossible. It makes sense in ECRP's world since a lot of stuff that happens you won't expect to happen in real life. 

For the lock picking thing, I mean both are acceptable. Some cops might just RP taking your keys to lock/unlock. Some may just pick lock.

[BillyB]

10 hours ago, tylxrrr said:

For the super thing, it doesn't really make sense RPly. I think LAPD has a Lamborghini Gallardo but I don't think it is actually used. From what I know, they are used to stop fast cars.

LAPD have a Lambo that was donated to them to be used at charitable events, you wouldn't see one chasing down a Nissan Skyline (Elegy Retro) or a Porsche 911 (Comet)

 

Also, the unmarked Vapid Stanier, especially when driven by @Samuel Martin, seems to somehow keep up with the Comet and can pit it, unlike supers, so not really sure why a T20 is needed...

[alexalex303]

The issue with comparing ECRP with real-life is that we do not have access to helicopters in the same way the LAPD does. The LAPD helicopter is virtually impossible to lose, you will see people with crazy super bikes not able to shake it for hours, they literally wait for them to run out of fuel. The in-game helicopter is pitifully slow, and is limited by draw distance and angles.

Something else to keep in mind is that in real-life, cops will stop pursuits because they can always charge you later. The whole thing we do here on ECRP where mask = it wasn't me, wouldn't hold up in court. If someone that generally looks like you (masked or not) evades from cops in your car, you're going to prison. There's no such thing as "many people have keys". Literally wouldn't hold up.

example of a pursuit where helicopter was used, and in the end chase was called off, driver later charged based on ownership

https://www.foxla.com/news/reckless-driver-evades-police-after-pursuit-through-hollywood

So, the whole realism thing is out of the window already.

In the context of the game, super cars are needed because player cars are very high performance versus cop cars. GTA is a game about crime, and police vehicles were purposefully under-tuned, so that they would chase you, but not be very good at catching you. It would not be a healthy roleplay server if anyone with an elegy could just evade whenever they felt like it. The elegy is already a pretty meh car and we have the actually overpowered vehicles like the Issi Sport which even the T20 struggles against. 

Further exacerbating these issues is the fact that some players choose to lower their graphics much more than needed, in an effort to get better performance out of their vehicles, and someone doing 60 fps in the same vehicle as someone doing 144, will have a noticeable and game-impacting advantage. 

Therefore, there's a lot of things to consider when it comes to a game versus real-life and talking about Dubai is pointless. Most people in LA will not evade, not even gang members, it's a serious felony and you will get caught. I'm not even going to get into laws that specifically discourage this, that we do not have, such as the three strike laws 

further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-strikes_law#:~:text=The three-strikes law significantly,other than a life sentence.

tl;dr it's a game, and in the context of the game, super cars make sense. selective realism is not a good approach.

[Destuin]

I agree with what you are saying about its a game and a selective approach is needed however this does not seem to apply as often to PD. PD seem to do so many things that others would be punished for NRP etc. For example asking you to step out of your vehicle for a traffic stop. Randomly being asked to look through your windows to see if you have any weapons. These are all situations where PD just force themselves to have an advantage through NRP terms. It's a game that is rigged heavily in favour of PD, and the super cars are just a part of that. For example why do police approach you at a traffic stop with a shotgun? Weapons are stored with a lock in a police vehicle. Why do 5 PD cruisers show up for a routine traffic stop? This would NEVER happen as it would be a waste of police time. What is it you expect criminals to do when police have answers for every situation and also force you into situations from what I presume must be meta gamed knowledge. If my car is completely tinted how can a police officer identify 4 people inside when passing by at high speed? It's because they can see the ids

There are countless more issues and ways to fix PD however when any of these are suggested you are told to deal with it IC. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Destuin

[alexalex303]

1 hour ago, Destuin said:

I agree with what you are saying about its a game and a selective approach is needed however this does not seem to apply as often to PD. PD seem to do so many things that others would be punished for NRP etc. For example asking you to step out of your vehicle for a traffic stop. Randomly being asked to look through your windows to see if you have any weapons. These are all situations where PD just force themselves to have an advantage through NRP terms. It's a game that is rigged heavily in favour of PD, and the super cars are just a part of that. For example why do police approach you at a traffic stop with a shotgun? Weapons are stored with a lock in a police vehicle. Why do 5 PD cruisers show up for a routine traffic stop? This would NEVER happen as it would be a waste of police time. What is it you expect criminals to do when police have answers for every situation and also force you into situations from what I presume must be meta gamed knowledge. If my car is completely tinted how can a police officer identify 4 people inside when passing by at high speed? It's because they can see the ids

There are countless more issues and ways to fix PD however when any of these are suggested you are told to deal with it IC. 

Being asked to step out at a traffic stop is the opposite of NonRP, it is very realistic. I find it very peculiar that one of your complaints is that an officer would roleplay looking through your windows to look for weapons. How is law enforcement roleplaying with you an issue? 

The reason why multiple officers are present at a traffic stop is simple, when there isn't, people shoot them. If cops got shot at traffic stops in LA as much as they do in-game, I guarantee that the national guard would be on the streets.

Cops roleplaying with you should never be an issue on a roleplaying server. Even if that roleplay ends up with you getting arrested, that shouldn't affect your feelings out-of-character. If you would like to state that it's an issue that the police force is too effective (as in you do not like that you get arrested), then please state it plainly.

Calling valid actions NonRP does not make a good point, nor will create a situation where we discuss your actual issue.

[Destuin]

You have just contradicted your self in two posts rather comically. By saying we should sacrifice RP standards and allow the super cars as its a game. But we also shouldn't do the same when it comes to how police interact with criminals? Nice. In this video you sent you can even see how big of an issue this is in real life, lets not turn this into a discussion of police irl being racist etc etc. 

[Freclan]

3 hours ago, Destuin said:

There are countless more issues and ways to fix PD however when any of these are suggested you are told to deal with it IC. 

PD isn't broken lol, PD is a reactionary faction and because of the way criminals have acted PD have had to make changes to how they operate. If you want to really point the finger point the finger at the criminals using high speed cars to evade cops. I don't personally have a problem with how the server currently works regarding this. If criminals are using supercars to evade why can't PD use supercars to keep up with them?

Edit; To add onto this if everyone were using warrerners to evade I can guarantee you that all cruisers wouldn't go faster than 160.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Freclan

[Destuin]

3 minutes ago, Freclan said:

PD isn't broken lol, PD is a reactionary faction and because of the way criminals have acted PD have had to make changes to how they operate. If you want to really point the finger point the finger at the criminals using high speed cars to evade cops. I don't personally have a problem with how the server currently works regarding this. If criminals are using supercars to evade why can't PD use supercars to keep up with them?

Edit; To add onto this if everyone were using warrerners to evade I can guarantee you that all cruisers wouldn't go faster than 160.

You said it right here. Supers should be used to catch supers, not normal cars. The percentage of people in the city that own supers is astronomically low. As opposed to  the amount I see a super used in a chase.

[Freclan]

1 minute ago, Destuin said:

not normal cars

if you consider a highly modded nissan skyline GT-R to be a normal car then that's on you

Edited June 18, 2021 by Freclan

[Jorge Compass]

The majority of supers have advantages and disadvantages compared to one another. For example the vacca has good acceleration/top speed, but isnt good for taking turns. You never see PD deploy supers for warreners, but for vehicles that warrant them (Such as rapid gt's) they are deployed because a cruiser simply wouldn't keep up with them. In reality you just need to adapt the way you evade depending on what vehicles you have on you (If you have a heli you go to tunnels for example)

[Victor Einhart]

22 hours ago, Angelo Capone said:

Even though it is hard to achieve access to the vehicle i have seen on multiple occasions supers cruising around

Like I always say if you aren't just making this up, provide evidence and the names of the people doing this so they can be punished for breaking regulations. A lot of the time a unit will call in a high speed unit or helicopter for habitual evaders: if you evade from police a lot expect to have built that reputation and have assets deployed in advance to chase you.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Victor Einhart

[THNDR]

11 hours ago, BillyB said:

LAPD have a Lambo that was donated to them to be used at charitable events, you wouldn't see one chasing down a Nissan Skyline (Elegy Retro) or a Porsche 911 (Comet)

 

It is also important to differenciate between things that can be copied from the LAPD and things that can't. Los Angeles is full of traffic and you would not be able to run from the cops at 240 in the middle of the city. You would get stuck behind other cars, possibly crash into them etc.

 

[Bala]

If we want to talk about realism, we can discuss the following;

• Limiting the vehicle speed from 240 km/h (150 mph) to a more manageable 160 km/h (100 mph) since most citizens are not race car drivers, trained to operate high speed vehicles at excessive speeds.
• Once you total your vehicle, it's scrapped and you can't use it again.
• If you commit certain felonies, you permanently forfeit your character's driving license.

No, that doesn't sound fun?

I saw an argument about Supers being used to catch Supers. 
The Comet Retro isn't a supercar. Neither is the V-STR, Novak, Komoda and Schlagen and all of those aforementioned vehicles have higher top speeds than some of the Supercars.

Frankly, the visual of PD using civilian supercars isn't ideal and it looks a little unrealistic but up to this point, we've had to make do with that.

Internally, we have strict rules on Supercar usage. Rules that were implemented by the highest administrators in the community. If you don't trust PD, you can at least trust them.

[jason]

This discussion should be about police supers as that is the main topic.

If this turns into another PD vs Crim thread, this will be archived. 

Please remain on topic, thank you.

[BillyB]

On 6/19/2021 at 3:33 AM, Bala said:

If we want to talk about realism, we can discuss the following;

• Limiting the vehicle speed from 240 km/h (150 mph) to a more manageable 160 km/h (100 mph) since most citizens are not race car drivers, trained to operate high speed vehicles at excessive speeds.
• Once you total your vehicle, it's scrapped and you can't use it again.
• If you commit certain felonies, you permanently forfeit your character's driving license.

No, that doesn't sound fun?

I saw an argument about Supers being used to catch Supers. 
The Comet Retro isn't a supercar. Neither is the V-STR, Novak, Komoda and Schlagen and all of those aforementioned vehicles have higher top speeds than some of the Supercars.

Frankly, the visual of PD using civilian supercars isn't ideal and it looks a little unrealistic but up to this point, we've had to make do with that.

Internally, we have strict rules on Supercar usage. Rules that were implemented by the highest administrators in the community. If you don't trust PD, you can at least trust them.

Sorry lad but I don't agree with some of your points;

1. "Limiting the vehicle speed from 240 km/h (150 mph) to a more manageable 160 km/h (100 mph) since most citizens are not race car drivers, trained to operate high speed vehicles at excessive speeds." You don't have to be a trained race car driver to drive any modern-ish car above 100mph, especially on long, open and quiet roads in the city and on the highway, especially when most cars have been modified to reach and cope with such speeds or "maxed" as people refer to it on the server. In the real world, it's pretty easy to get an everyday modern standard car to 100mph+ so placing a speed limit on vehicles at 100mph would be extremely unrealistic.
2. "Once you total your vehicle, it's scrapped and you can't use it again." Whilst I agree somewhat with this, I believe it would just become a salvage or categorised title making it devalued and more prone to totaling again.
3. "If you commit certain felonies, you permanently forfeit your character's driving license." I've never once heard of a permanent driving ban, even in the UK, but regardless of this; losing your license on the server has very little impact on people besides from being unable to release your car from the impound and also acting as another reason for crims to felony evade. I'd recommend longer suspensions though as a 2 day license suspension/having your cars impounded for 2 days isn't really that much of a big deal.

 

I personally believe it would be more realistic if PD/SD used more realistic but highly tuned vehicles, such as the Sultan RS.

[Destuin]

Maybe it would be better with some form of OOC police "funding". Then that would add an extra RP layer for mayors etc. If they had a form of funding where they could allocate there budget. For example sacrificing some weapons from the armoury to allow for the use of supers, and that could be a mayors policy. Or reducing the wage to cover the costs of getting the new kamachos etc etc. To loop this back round to the supers as I wouldn't want this to be locked. It would be nice to see some repercussions if the supers are totalled, or a risk to taking them out and damaging them etc. This might help them understand more of an IC consequence of using them.