The Ruined State of Criminal RP

[mikebumbum]

I have to agree and disagree with this post. I agree that crim RP recently has become very stale and honestly there isn't much for us to do at all no one wants to chop cars as its boring and doesn't really give you much money and doing drugs is just time consuming especially with the new system. Crim RP needs some type of new mechanics or things to do in general and fast as the lack of things to keep us occupied is what causes gangs to start unnecessary conflict with other groups as its the only fun thing to do as a criminal.

Now what i disagree with on this post is that you complain about the member cap but with your alliance of 3 gangs actually ruins crim RP for everyone else there is literally only 2 (3 if you count the rooks) official factions within the 3 years of this server being around that should just not be the case your groups RP actually leads to no crim RP to be allowed for anyone else and that is another main factor to crim RP being ruined for the rest of us i think the 40 member count stops your group of 3 gangs which at the moment comes to around 150-180 people from stopping any group from growing to the point where no one else will even want to try crim RP out.

I know the responses that will be put under this post as well either its an ic problem or those groups should have done better but to be fair there is no room for other groups to actually experience this side of the server the way things are set up now your groups literally harass any group that tries to start up or is just RPing without involving your groups. Right now this may seem like the crappy way out limiting groups on how many people they can have but maybe it will actually start a bunch of other groups to form up and different relationships between factions to occur where it's not just the same 2 groups the Triads and the Zetas doing as they please while literally no one else has been able to enjoy their crim RP for the past year because of them. The only people who have enjoyed it are themselves now they complain because they cant get even stronger there is no one you will ever need to fight with 150 people allied up let other people enjoy the rp as well.

The cap will not AT ALL hurt small gangs. Small gangs are.. lets walk through this: small. The cap only affects the behemoths that have been here for 2 years and want to grow to 100+. This is a cap to help the small gangs that have been attacked and abused by the large gangs, and it's' exactly why 90% of the people against this change are in those 2 gangs. I know it's hard to understand but crim RP can be more then just lets fight these guys and wipe their gang out we can have a server where there's multiple groups that have conflicts that end and the group stays around but the big groups using their force of numbers basically hit these groups until they know the group won't be able to stay around then either do it till they vanish from the server or try to charge them ridiculous taxes where they know the gang wont stay around just from my experience the past few months there could still be groups here today and participating and enjoying crim RP such as The Wanted, The Rooks, WCA and that was just the official ones over the past few months.

 The server has lost those groups due to being hit by groups that were just too big who had the intent of getting rid of them not RPing with them in the slightest as let's face it the big 2 don't even like to RP anymore look at their faction threads, one of the requirements to get official they barely even post anymore knowing they won't lose official. Literally just counting those groups we have lost plenty of people from the server in general who don't want to play anymore as all their work they put into A VIDEO GAME remember this isnt real life most of us have jobs go to school etc to lose all the work you put into something just because your gang couldn't hold a fight that lets be honest most groups didn't even ask for against the big groups but were more forced into it is ridiculous. Step into the other sides shoes for a second anyone in council imagine you've put all this work into your gang you were proud of what you did you put 100s or 1000s of hours into a video game because you enjoyed it then someone comes and deletes your gang just tells you all the work you put into it is gone because the other side just had more people than you and you couldn't survive it. Most of you wouldn't enjoy the server anymore as you'd have to find a new thing to take on or flat out leave the server well that's how the rest of us feel now i think the number cap is a great idea.

[MrUntouchable215]

10 minutes ago, mikebumbum said:

 

My man honestly, the fact that you even mentioned the thread says a lot. If you think we're deadass going to spam our faction thread 24/7, you're wilding out. We post when something relevant occurs and that's evident by the amount of pages we have. We don't spam faction thread, thats not what we're here for. 



Preach.

Edited May 28, 2020 by MrUntouchable215

[alexalex303]

1 minute ago, MrUntouchable215 said:

My man honestly, the fact that you even mentioned the thread says a lot. If you think we're deadass going to spam our faction thread 24/7, you're wilding out. We post when something relevant occurs and that's evident by the amount of pages we have. We don't spam faction thread, thats not what we're here for. 



I wanna know where all this energy went, ngl. What changed?

I don't see why I'm being quoted in this. The fact that it's a screenshot from November 2019, is quite troubling as well. Context is for Kings. The context of that screenshot was someone asking for OOC protection in a conflict (iirc), and I explained that NCZs are already a big protection in wars. 

Faction Management has taken several steps to get involved in IC matters, and it actually was a key thing in a recent war that you fought. To ask for OOC involvement to be gone tomorrow, I think it's unreasonable. That ship has sailed. OOC involvement is here, and I don't think it's going away, and I think that is and can be a good thing. We just need to adapt, and stop using "IC" as a rebuttal for everything. 

Your opinion in this thread seemed to have changed as well. In the first posts you made in this thread, you kept stating that this change will hurt small gangs, yet people from small gangs repeatedly said they want this, and it's mainly people from absolutely huge gangs against it. Now you're saying small gangs shouldn't have OOC crutches, which one is it? Does it help small gangs or not? @MrUntouchable215

 

[MrUntouchable215]

17 minutes ago, Icarus2766 said:

God damn you had to pull that one out lol, how could you defeat our argument so harshly like that bro

 

In all seriousness the WCA and Balla situation is nothing like the Council army vs anyone who even tries to expand as a gang in the last couple of year's?

 

I am curious l, do you think rp in the server is better or worse without The irish, WCA, Vory, Rooks, Wanted etc and do you feel The council negatively affected the server RP for everyone or improved it? 

I think RP evolved naturally through dynamic IC events. I don't think RP is better without Irish, WCA, or Rooks. I'm leaving Vorys out of this because that was a personal IC vendetta and those guys are truly family.

My point is, for every group that falls, another will take their place. It's funny that you mentioned Irish though, because all of this talk of the council is making me feel nostalgic. Considering Irish were founders of said Council and we wouldnt be here if it weren't for them.

@alexalex303

I'm too stupid to double quote right now. My opinion hasn't changed. I think this effects both small and bigger factions. I don't have a single problem with people agreeing with the changes. I disagree, but that doesn't mean everyone has to. I don't think restrictions should be made like this, especially not like this, as in the grand scheme of things I feel it only serves to hurt factions rather than help them improve/advise them. Nothing changes for us as far as Council in the long run, we're still going to do the same shit. So not only is this restriction pointless, it just hits our recruitment RP directly in the gut and at complete random as well and that needs to be addressed, as a new cap wasn't needed.

Also context does matter. My point in posting that is that when we were at war with Rooks, you didn't give a shit and proceeded to help this "council" stomp them out until they were damn near gone. You didn't care when it was you, Rooks and Vory fighting Aztecas and you didn't care when you were pushing around ballas until they had nothing left. Shit, when people were wanting to restrict IC relationships and progression through OOC means, you were NOT with that shit. 

 So yes, I feel that now that the shoe is put on the other foot, your entire world view has changed. I'm not trying to be a cuck here, just something I've noticed from a few people so far. When they're the ones taking the fight to someone else, they could care less and when it happens to them, it's different it seems. Where was all that energy when you guys were helping us fight all these other gangs? No one seemed to mind the council then lmao

Edited May 28, 2020 by MrUntouchable215

[mikebumbum]

5 minutes ago, MrUntouchable215 said:

I think RP evolved naturally through dynamic IC events. I don't think RP is better without Irish, WCA, or Rooks. I'm leaving Vorys out of this because that was a personal IC vendetta and those guys are truly family.

My point is, for every group that falls, another will take their place. It's funny that you mentioned Irish though, because all of this talk of the council is making me feel nostalgic. Considering Irish were founders of said Council and we wouldnt be here if it weren't for them. The Balla Vs WCA situation is a lot like the council situation. Ballas got completely bullied out of grove and no one batted an eye. You wanna talk about ruining someone's RP, let's talk about it.

i mean to be fair the guy you're quoting wasn't in WCA so clearly he thought it made sense RPly as it did because everyone knows the green and purple gang in gta fight over turf and are both street gangs the green gang (WCA) wanted to claim grove street as their new hood so they did his point im assuming which is what we all feel is that all of councils attacks never make RP sense its just some small reasons to wipe out a gang with no prior RP if you go look at your faction thread which you talked about it showcasing your rp a month or two ago you guys made a post including WCA i was in the post with Deandre and Anthony Laurie and in the post it talks about how great our gangs bonds were then no escalation happens especially not on your guys forum and all of the sudden you are going to war with us.

[Westy]

I think that if the large gangs in the mega coalition of 180+ people actually wanted to help small gangs and stop killing off other gangs, they would support this cap. This is similar to monopolies in real-life, would it be realistic for a company to say hey we built this monopoly, why can't we keep it? Because it's not fair. This is a video game, and in this video game, there was a cap introduced to stop you from taking over the server, and then saying that there's no criminal RP.

A large part of why criminal RP is what it is, is cause of Zetas, Triads and now Aztecas. You all decided to be allies, have no enemies and now Hoxton doesn't want to log in. When the war with WCA was going, Hoxton was there every day. Now that you bullied every other gang away from the server, you're saying it's stale? The whole point of this is to create more gangs, and hopefully interesting RP, and yes /conflicts/ are part of that interesting RP, they might happen.

There's this whole narrative that was spewed by Jay and Montie on several occasions that the council is this big stabilizing force that stops conflict. I don't think anyone wants conflict to stop. Apart from the people at the top taxing everyone, of course. Conflict is good. If there's conflict, people log in, LSPD gets crime to stop, MD gets injured people to treat, the server works.

[kris giggs]

It's a repeated pattern, it's not really hard to see, how many gangs have gotten the chance to become official over the last year or so and had fallen to mega alliance of then 2 and other smaller groups trying to make names for themselves by helping the council, now 3 gangs. Well, since I already see the 'it's an IC alliance through IC interactions' argument coming in I doubt there's any other argument to why criminal RP is so stale. You speak so highly of nurturing roleplay and allowing small gangs to flourish just to end them once they get ends to meet. Realistically, I see so many gangs leaders that give these in-depth roleplay situations and outcomes but they do not fall under them. A lot of paradoxes are also present, you eliminate every gang due to 'IC reasons' and remove your only source of roleplay and then go to the forums and ask for updates and more criminal activities, the rules have limit gang roleplay to be exclusively gang roleplay and not the council robbing people at clothing stores since they've nothing better to do. I understand, you want to stay on the throne for as long as you can, I am completely fine with that, but with that also come realistic issues that are going to effect your gang, you imply the only roleplay that comes out of this server is either robbing, chopping cars or making drugs, ridiculous. I've tried corner selling drugs before and it was the most fun I've ever had on the server, with a new player as well. Make an actual drug chain, not the one you use for a thread to look nice for FM but an actual, functioning chain, traffic people, steal cars and ask for ransom, interact with the admin cartel more oftenly, you create your own roleplay. Imagine a world where two gangs allow another startup to grow so much where they are strong but can still be swept just to leech off the months of work they put in because you let them, take their members, grow even more and keep repeating that. I heard someone say if you can't beat them, join them, that's the stupidest shit ever, where is the fun in that, or should I say, where is the roleplay in that?

Bottom line, if you want 'ruined state of criminal rp' to turn into 'nerf criminals they've way too much roleplay' actually roleplay, I just now understand how bad the Rooks and Wanted go it, everyone turning against them, but it'll keep repeating if you don't want to change it, the devs can't help with that. All of these restrictions being imposed are to improve roleplay, not to ruin your experience, it's a ying yang thing, but at the end of the day you get the worse side of it since some people just don't like using /me's and /do's.

[MikeyyyG]

3 minutes ago, kris giggs said:

It's a repeated pattern, it's not really hard to see, how many gangs have gotten the chance to become official over the last year or so and had fallen to mega alliance of then 2 and other smaller groups trying to make names for themselves by helping the council, now 3 gangs. Well, since I already see the 'it's an IC alliance through IC interactions' argument coming in I doubt there's any other argument to why criminal RP is so stale. You speak so highly of nurturing roleplay and allowing small gangs to flourish just to end them once they get ends to meet. Realistically, I see so many gangs leaders that give these in-depth roleplay situations and outcomes but they do not fall under them. A lot of paradoxes are also present, you eliminate every gang due to 'IC reasons' and remove your only source of roleplay and then go to the forums and ask for updates and more criminal activities, the rules have limit gang roleplay to be exclusively gang roleplay and not the council robbing people at clothing stores since they've nothing better to do. I understand, you want to stay on the throne for as long as you can, I am completely fine with that, but with that also come realistic issues that are going to effect your gang, you imply the only roleplay that comes out of this server is either robbing, chopping cars or making drugs, ridiculous. I've tried corner selling drugs before and it was the most fun I've ever had on the server, with a new player as well. Make an actual drug chain, not the one you use for a thread to look nice for FM but an actual, functioning chain, traffic people, steal cars and ask for ransom, interact with the admin cartel more oftenly, you create your own roleplay. Imagine a world where two gangs allow another startup to grow so much where they are strong but can still be swept just to leech off the months of work they put in because you let them, take their members, grow even more and keep repeating that. I heard someone say if you can't beat them, join them, that's the stupidest shit ever, where is the fun in that, or should I say, where is the roleplay in that?

Bottom line, if you want 'ruined state of criminal rp' to turn into 'nerf criminals they've way too much roleplay' actually roleplay, I just now understand how bad the Rooks and Wanted go it, everyone turning against them, but it'll keep repeating if you don't want to change it, the devs can't help with that. All of these restrictions being imposed are to improve roleplay, not to ruin your experience, it's a ying yang thing, but at the end of the day you get the worse side of it since some people just don't like using /me's and /do's.

If gangs didn’t fuck up so badly they wouldn’t get wiped.. kinda simple really

[mexicanwave]

11 minutes ago, kris giggs said:

It's a repeated pattern, it's not really hard to see, how many gangs have gotten the chance to become official over the last year or so and had fallen to mega alliance of then 2 and other smaller groups trying to make names for themselves by helping the council, now 3 gangs. Well, since I already see the 'it's an IC alliance through IC interactions' argument coming in I doubt there's any other argument to why criminal RP is so stale. You speak so highly of nurturing roleplay and allowing small gangs to flourish just to end them once they get ends to meet. Realistically, I see so many gangs leaders that give these in-depth roleplay situations and outcomes but they do not fall under them. A lot of paradoxes are also present, you eliminate every gang due to 'IC reasons' and remove your only source of roleplay and then go to the forums and ask for updates and more criminal activities, the rules have limit gang roleplay to be exclusively gang roleplay and not the council robbing people at clothing stores since they've nothing better to do. I understand, you want to stay on the throne for as long as you can, I am completely fine with that, but with that also come realistic issues that are going to effect your gang, you imply the only roleplay that comes out of this server is either robbing, chopping cars or making drugs, ridiculous. I've tried corner selling drugs before and it was the most fun I've ever had on the server, with a new player as well. Make an actual drug chain, not the one you use for a thread to look nice for FM but an actual, functioning chain, traffic people, steal cars and ask for ransom, interact with the admin cartel more oftenly, you create your own roleplay. Imagine a world where two gangs allow another startup to grow so much where they are strong but can still be swept just to leech off the months of work they put in because you let them, take their members, grow even more and keep repeating that. I heard someone say if you can't beat them, join them, that's the stupidest shit ever, where is the fun in that, or should I say, where is the roleplay in that?

Bottom line, if you want 'ruined state of criminal rp' to turn into 'nerf criminals they've way too much roleplay' actually roleplay, I just now understand how bad the Rooks and Wanted go it, everyone turning against them, but it'll keep repeating if you don't want to change it, the devs can't help with that. All of these restrictions being imposed are to improve roleplay, not to ruin your experience, it's a ying yang thing, but at the end of the day you get the worse side of it since some people just don't like using /me's and /do's.

i think it's quite clear you don't know what you're talking about. NLA, a gang which is now part of the council grew in environment where they were fighting us DAILY. We have been at war with them a countless number of times. They stuck it out rather than their leader abandoning them to run back to PD, and eventually grew to where they are today. They earned our respect through resilience and resistance rather than conformity like you suggest.

There has been no attempt to create a counter-council, Rooks and Wanted had the perfect opportunity to do that, hell, WCA had that opportunity too. It feels like we're being punished for other people being clueless.

Edited May 28, 2020 by mexicanwave

[Msato]

People seem to be getting the idea that we want the cap increased beyond 60, is is not the case. All we are asking for in relation to this is for it to revert back to 60.

As for the remark of "all the large three groups do is kill off small gangs" which is totally untrue and 99% comes from players who participated in a war that their gang brought upon itself, as for smaller gangs funnily enough we advocate their growth and have many diplomacy meetings with them, but people do not witness this,. All that is seen is the bang at the end. 

If you really think our only goal is to kill off groups you're blind, yes people are obviously going to dislike competition and put of a fight against it. This should not mean ooc restrictions are introduced to compensate for icly weaker gangs. 

Triads weren't always "on top" we earned it, from fighting against the council prior to us, then surviving an e moving to building relations, eventually the time came where we got a slot. The exact same has recently happened with another group. 

[mikebumbum]

5 minutes ago, MikeyyyG said:

If gangs didn’t fuck up so badly they wouldn’t get wiped.. kinda simple really

i mean just to put this into perspective here one of our guys sold 1 gun under the councils ''market price'' and instead of having some interesting RP with that you guys decided it was this huge fuck up and gave our gang 2 options pay 2 million or fight us as we were not official yet and still building we wanted to enjoy our RP so we just paid you the 2 Million wow that was such great RP. I've heard Triads didn't even have the 6 mil in their treasury that they were asking from us to stop the war some people aren't here to RP and it really shows. You only see it in your shoes but realistically you guys don't want anyone to enjoy crim RP other than yourselves.

[nikoh]

4 minutes ago, mikebumbum said:

i mean just to put this into perspective here one of our guys sold 1 gun under the councils ''market price'' and instead of having some interesting RP with that you guys decided it was this huge fuck up and gave our gang 2 options pay 2 million or fight us as we were not official yet and still building we wanted to enjoy our RP so we just paid you the 2 Million wow that was such great RP. I've heard Triads didn't even have the 6 mil in their treasury that they were asking from us to stop the war some people aren't here to RP and it really shows. You only see it in your shoes but realistically you guys don't want anyone to enjoy crim RP other than yourselves.

imagine constantly using PD and even bringing them to labs when occupied by a neutral party. you gang had a ton of chances but you fucked up a lot IC. Tunnel vision strikes again

 

either way each gang had their reasons for being targeted, denial of those reasons is IC and seems to be a reoccurring issue amongst people like you

Edited May 28, 2020 by nikoh
its IC bro

[mexicanwave]

2 minutes ago, Icarus2766 said:

By fuck up you mean by actually making a RP heavy gang and working hard then getting official? Lmao

You are being very disingenuous using NLA as an example for what you are claiming 

Please explain how i'm being disingenuous. 

[KOP]

I think you have hit the nail on the head here couldn't of said it any better myself 

its getting to the point where I am losing motivation to even play 

changes needed to made asap or I can see a lot of people going different ways from the server 

[Msato]

1 minute ago, mikebumbum said:

i mean just to put this into perspective here one of our guys sold 1 gun under the councils ''market price'' and instead of having some interesting RP with that you guys decided it was this huge fuck up and gave our gang 2 options pay 2 million or fight us as we were not official yet and still building we wanted to enjoy our RP so we just paid you the 2 Million wow that was such great RP. I've heard Triads didn't even have the 6 mil in their treasury that they were asking from us to stop the war some people aren't here to RP and it really shows. You only see it in your shoes but realistically you guys don't want anyone to enjoy crim RP other than yourselves.

If you really think a war was waged off one mistake, I guess your leadership failed to show you the full two pages of reasons we provided to FM and it was also accepted, the mistake you point out was the very last mistake in a long chain of attempted forgiveness. 

People need to stop turning this post into a personal issue and instead get back to the discussion at hand. 

[mexicanwave]

3 minutes ago, mikebumbum said:

i mean just to put this into perspective here one of our guys sold 1 gun under the councils ''market price'' and instead of having some interesting RP with that you guys decided it was this huge fuck up and gave our gang 2 options pay 2 million or fight us as we were not official yet and still building we wanted to enjoy our RP so we just paid you the 2 Million wow that was such great RP. I've heard Triads didn't even have the 6 mil in their treasury that they were asking from us to stop the war some people aren't here to RP and it really shows. You only see it in your shoes but realistically you guys don't want anyone to enjoy crim RP other than yourselves.

This is why we went to war with you guys. You fucked up over and over again, then you fail to realise how you fucked up.

[Arnis]

Honestly i have seen so many gangs die cuz of everyone joing the big boy zetas its stupid you would have more people and more gangs in my time you wiped so many gangs and still do to this point and talking about NLA at that time we had at most 10 members you never phisicly went in  to a war we had some small skirmishes and then carlos was the man who was raiping yall 

[mexicanwave]

4 minutes ago, Icarus2766 said:

You advocate their growth until they get official or close to then you declare war? I never understood why you guys pretend that isn't the case when literally all the evidence is right there. Of course you make up IC reasons then give impossible demands to force them to have to fight like with WCA and Rooks and Wanted etc, no point dancing around it anymore The council ruin criminal RP on this server not improve it

So just because you don't know the IC reason you're assuming that we didn't have one?

[nikoh]

7 minutes ago, Icarus2766 said:

You advocate their growth until they get official or close to then you declare war? I never understood why you guys pretend that isn't the case when literally all the evidence is right there. Of course you make up IC reasons then give impossible demands to force them to have to fight like with WCA and Rooks and Wanted etc, no point dancing around it anymore The council ruin criminal RP on this server not improve it

Imagine being this ignorant you have to convince yourself that we made up our reasons to go to war (which were accepted by Faction Management). As stated above, sounds like your lack of IC knowledge is getting the best of you, it's clearly showing.

[kris giggs]

10 hours ago, CallumMontie said:

The main issues:

• New robbery and crime limitations - The newly implemented robbery rule were initially tested by crims prior to implementation and designed with taking the input of criminals into account. One of the main issues with this rule is it turns the majority of the map into a glorified NCZ for other criminals to abuse as protection. NCZ abuse already being a vary apparent issue within criminals, this just added to fueling the fire. What criminals initially asked for was some leeway when committing the crime, i.e pulling up in a smallish group, initiating the robbery and then urgently relocating it out of sight, whether that be via a minor kidnap or moving the target to an alleyway. However, the current rule restricts literally every form of public criminal engagement.

The core issue is that you don't believe what you say, you've no backing of it and emotions oftenly cloud your opinon, I am quite surprised by the amount of people getting heated over what I said, but to get back to the discussion can you please explain why you question the new robbing rule yet use them benefit firsthand, and then again speak about OOC barriers and restrictions, hypocrisy.

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by kris giggs

[mexicanwave]

1 minute ago, Icarus2766 said:

I am saying of course you will have to have your IC reason to keep FM happy but the real reason is you don't want anyone having official and the benefits that come with it, like come on dude every single gang that got official you declared war on since you formed your version of the council

That's ridiculous, the WCA war is the only war where we have had to give FM a reason for going to war. We have had strained relations with WCA long before they became official, so saying that we only went to war because the had official shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. Furthermore, Rooks lasting a pretty long time with official before we went to war with them, again for a number of actual reasons, not just because they had official. 

[mexicanwave]

1 minute ago, kris giggs said:

The core issue is that you don't believe what you say, you've no backing of it and emotions oftenly cloud your opinon, I am quite surprised by the amount of people getting heated over what I said, but to get back to the discussion can you please explain why you question the new robbing rule yet use them benefit firsthand, and then again speak about OOC barrier and restrictions, hypocrisy.

 

Are you saying just because you disagree with a rule you can't report someone for breaking it? We've had a number of members be punished under the new rules, why should we judge ourselves by different rules than everyone else. If we have to follow the new robbery rule so should everyone else.

[Felcon]

I mean I am pretty sure NLA has been building for over a year. Got fucked by the council that they had like 5 members left, They grew up again and proved them self. Then they get official and "OOC" disband and they built up again and are part of the council. They decided to work the hard way instead of some other faction OOCly disbanding 

[Arnis]

Just now, Felcon said:

I mean I am pretty sure NLA has been building for over a year. Got fucked by the council that they had like 5 members left, They grew up again and proved them self. Then they get official and "OOC" disband and they built up again and are part of the council. They decided to work the hard way instead of some other faction OOCly disbanding 

I would like to say we we never got fully attacked as only there were small skrimages i know this for a fact and we never had 5 members left we allways were there you just never comitted for a full on war as you had your hands tied up with russians

 

[kris giggs]

4 minutes ago, mexicanwave said:

Are you saying just because you disagree with a rule you can't report someone for breaking it? We've had a number of members be punished under the new rules, why should we judge ourselves by different rules than everyone else. If we have to follow the new robbery rule so should everyone else.

Integrity is something that you obviously lack, it's an obvious paradox you're stating things that are self-contradictory meaning you don't stand behind what you say, it's having an opposite effect, you want to get the rule removed because it gives you no leniency yet when it comes to you getting robbed you impose it blindly, I do not expect you, your leader or anyone else reading this to understand, but the neutral parties surely will. I'll avoid replying anymore since some people are using the thread to unleash their pent up frustrations and I do not want to be a part of it, I hope your voyage to improve your perception of criminal roleplay goes well.