The Ruined State of Criminal RP

[Felcon]

Gotta agree with everything. I am unsure why all these OOC rules are in place. You want us to progress us ICly but you stop us from doing by OOC limitations. If we a group progress into a 60 man group why should admins/faction management be the once to decide no you cannot be in that group scriptly as we have a limitations. Another good example was the recent war with the war rules. Why could shelby's not intervene if that was the ICly development of the group? It makes no sense that they could not do anything. Disagree with the way staff is going with these rules and hope that changes will be made soon

[HobGoblin]

My main character works at the LSPD. It has started to get a lot quieter recently, I assume this is due to the new rules etc. I am only just finding about about this cap being lowered to 40. If this is a thing to stay I suggest that it is raised by 5/10 after a certain amount of time. This was the longer you are official, you more members you have.  I would also like to see turfs brought back so the criminals have more rp and can have more fun while playing. 

[Henry Goodman]

Takes time for people to change, years of daily gun blazing on the server and now this new rules, ofc some people will argue it. I was RPing criminal before and there were far far far more robberies, raids, killing overall and yea it felt interesteting at the time but actually it was destroying civil RP. You can kill in between gangs its not all in robbing farmers at day time or roobing poor Taco guy. 

[RobottoOtto]

I cant believe a cap has been adjusted OOC for something IC. Smh tbh. Haven't seen mentioned somewhere before, which gives me the impression that its just done and we just have to accept it, which kinda destroys the point of a community.

[RobottoOtto]

35 minutes ago, HobGoblin said:

My main character works at the LSPD. It has started to get a lot quieter recently, I assume this is due to the new rules etc. I am only just finding about about this cap being lowered to 40. If this is a thing to stay I suggest that it is raised by 5/10 after a certain amount of time. This was the longer you are official, you more members you have.  I would also like to see turfs brought back so the criminals have more rp and can have more fun while playing. 

raising a cap over time sounds decent, however, gangs already build up their gang before they get official. So that means you have to build a gang up, you get members, then you get official and you have to remove people and build membership up again. 

Being official should just make stuff easier.

[Yputi]

I've been in Traids a very long time ago on my alt, in the time before they were official till the point they became official. It isn't easy to get official as it requires a lot of IC and OOC effort. I find it very sad to see I have to say that they get limited in an OOC way for something IC. 
I haven't seen any exact reason why this is done, which causes me to assume things, but I will prevent mentioning those, but I personally do not agree. Even if the reason makes sense, I am against sudden changes like this.

(Not to mention that I noticed Dealership Discords are also being removed or something, which limits them to the IC phone to get stuff done, which is a huge limitation. I just rather see stuff added to improve certain points than limit people)

Edited May 28, 2020 by Yputi

[alexalex303]

I think it's very clear that smaller organizations do like the cap on members, and it's only the really big factions that want to keep recruiting. There already is a very strong IC monopoly in the server, and if you remove the member cap, there will be no more new factions, as all the new people will just join the biggest, until we have a certain faction at 300, and another at 300, and that is when the smaller gangs will have issues. Not when everything is capped.

In my opinion, removing the player cap on gangs is a big no-no for the health of the server. 

[ParsaPelox]

I agree with most what above were said except some people talking about "it gave advantage to smaller groups"

with current system server is just Ruleplay than "Roleplay"

OOC limitations and OOC FMs opting who won "IC" war?

+1 to this post and who ever is trying to return old crims back not "fake" and "this is public you cant rob me" crims 

[Felcon]

1 minute ago, alexalex303 said:

I think it's very clear that smaller organizations do like the cap on members, and it's only the really big factions that want to keep recruiting. There already is a very strong IC monopoly in the server, and if you remove the member cap, there will be no more new factions, as all the new people will just join the biggest, until we have a certain faction at 300, and another at 300, and that is when the smaller gangs will have issues. Not when everything is capped.

In my opinion, removing the player cap on gangs is a big no-no for the health of the server. 

that IC monopoly aka the council you mean most likely is an IC issue why does it have to be fixed with OOC means?

[Yputi]

1 minute ago, alexalex303 said:

I think it's very clear that smaller organizations do like the cap on members, and it's only the really big factions that want to keep recruiting. There already is a very strong IC monopoly in the server, and if you remove the member cap, there will be no more new factions, as all the new people will just join the biggest, until we have a certain faction at 300, and another at 300, and that is when the smaller gangs will have issues. Not when everything is capped.

In my opinion, removing the player cap on gangs is a big no-no for the health of the server. 

It's reduced though. Having the cap removed is something else.  And if I look at a certain gang which isn't official, it is possible to grow. People just need to figure out IC how.
And then again, just doing it without any notice is just sad to see imo.

[Roderick]

6 hours ago, CallumMontie said:

The main issues:

• New robbery and crime limitations - ...
   
• Faction Management - ...
   
• Criminal Faction Member Cap - ..

To start off with, I've been playing on the server for about 1.5 years now and, unlike the majority of people commenting in this thread, solely been focused on the civilian roleplay. Honestly, when I started playing the roleplay-standard of criminals was quite poor, including the official factions. For example, not being able to go by a clothing store without being robbed or even periods when there hourly shootouts or robberies in a crowded workplace from a certain official gang. I'm definitely glad to see that in the time I've been playing here the standard has been quite upped so far. I'll just give my two cents on the issues pointed out.

Concerning the new robbery and crime limitations, I definitely agree with the goal that was intended with this rule. The fact that you weren't even able to drive to the high-end, a clothing store or to your workplace without getting robbed at least once by criminals who more often than not actually started the "roleplay" with the sentence "rob rob rob" was simply atrocious. However, if it is the case that the whole city has turned out to be a no crime zone I am against the effect the current rule has for the criminal side of roleplay. A simple example: robbing someone comfortably with all the time in the world in the middle of the street one block off the bank for their GPS should be a definite no-go, whereas robbing someone nearer to the places that would realistically be more filled with criminal activity should be very definitely possible. Aside from the previous, I also quite like the idea that criminals will have to actually prepare a robbery now instead of driving around and robbing ten people per hour. To conclude this point, I agree with the goal this rule has set concerning places of criminal activity and the area of tension between high-risk and high-reward but the way the rule is right now might be a bit too strong.

Concerning the faction management, I think there should always be some oversight on the law enforcement and criminal side of factions simply because those two are, by nature, the biggest strain on the playerbase. In your point you only state that the faction management is limiting your in character relations but unfortunately you do not bring up adequate examples of situations where that might be to fuel a discussion. Could you perhaps enlighten this point @CallumMontie?

Concerning the faction member cap, my point of view is that the out of character rules should always have the goal to maintain a healthy balance between the three main ways of the playerbase, i.e. criminals, law enforcement and civilians. I'm pretty sure we all agree that if the playerbase consists out of 90 percent criminals and 10 percent law enforcement or the other way around, the balance would be gone. Realistically speaking there should always be a tad more law enforcement than criminals, simply because one by one the criminal would have the advantage by default, which also seems an unwanted outcome looking at the first point.
Going forward, it might be an idea to evaluate the faction member cap every now and then (2 months or so?) based on the amount of law enforcement, taking into account new player influx as well. For example: if due to a new player influx the law enforcement have reached a total of +30, the criminal faction member cap goes up a few. If the law enforcement goes down -20 because of less people playing, the criminal faction member goes up a bit.

To summarize, I do think you have a few valid points although I don't think we see eye to eye on the realistic robbery rule. The situation where a civilian has to be very careful looking over his shoulder for a simple two-minute drive to his job seems both unrealistic and unwanted. I agree that there should be more to do for criminals, but I feel some members replying in this topic are clearly overlooking there's way more potential to criminal roleplay than things that negatively impact civilian roleplay.

To add a few points myself:

- I agree with the earlier statement that currently the criminal side of roleplay is focused too much on static things like the chop shop. However, if more dynamic options like the newly-introduced drugtable could be introduced I think that would very well help the originality and the dynamic in criminal roleplay.

- Illegal guns seem quite hard to obtain nowadays. Maybe it's an idea to make it possible, albeit a bit more expensive, for non-official factions to import them?

- To add more variety to the chop chops and to possibly reduce the suggested camping, add more dynamic spots and with that inclusion, the possibility of having two open at the same time?

[Yputi]

5 minutes ago, Roderick said:

To start off with, I've been playing on the server for about 1.5 years now and, unlike the majority of people commenting in this thread, solely been focused on the civilian roleplay. Honestly, when I started playing the roleplay-standard of criminals was quite poor, including the official factions. For example, not being able to go by a clothing store without being robbed or even periods when there hourly shootouts or robberies in a crowded workplace from a certain official gang. I'm definitely glad to see that in the time I've been playing here the standard has been quite upped so far. I'll just give my two cents on the issues pointed out.

Concerning the new robbery and crime limitations, I definitely agree with the goal that was intended with this rule. The fact that you weren't even able to drive to the high-end, a clothing store or to your workplace without getting robbed at least once by criminals who more often than not actually started the "roleplay" with the sentence "rob rob rob" was simply atrocious. However, if it is the case that the whole city has turned out to be a no crime zone I am against the effect the current rule has for the criminal side of roleplay. A simple example: robbing someone comfortably with all the time in the world in the middle of the street one block off the bank for their GPS should be a definite no-go, whereas robbing someone nearer to the places that would realistically be more filled with criminal activity should be very definitely possible. Aside from the previous, I also quite like the idea that criminals will have to actually prepare a robbery now instead of driving around and robbing ten people per hour. To conclude this point, I agree with the goal this rule has set concerning places of criminal activity and the area of tension between high-risk and high-reward but the way the rule is right now might be a bit too strong.

Concerning the faction management, I think there should always be some oversight on the law enforcement and criminal side of factions simply because those two are, by nature, the biggest strain on the playerbase. In your point you only state that the faction management is limiting your in character relations but unfortunately you do not bring up adequate examples of situations where that might be to fuel a discussion. Could you perhaps enlighten this point @CallumMontie?

Concerning the faction member cap, my point of view is that the out of character rules should always have the goal to maintain a healthy balance between the three main ways of the playerbase, i.e. criminals, law enforcement and civilians. I'm pretty sure we all agree that if the playerbase consists out of 90 percent criminals and 10 percent law enforcement or the other way around, the balance would be gone. Realistically speaking there should always be a tad more law enforcement than criminals, simply because one by one the criminal would have the advantage by default, which also seems an unwanted outcome looking at the first point.
Going forward, it might be an idea to evaluate the faction member cap every now and then (2 months or so?) based on the amount of law enforcement, taking into account new player influx as well. For example: if due to a new player influx the law enforcement have reached a total of +30, the criminal faction member cap goes up a few. If the law enforcement goes down -20 because of less people playing, the criminal faction member goes up a bit.

To summarize, I do think you have a few valid points although I don't think we see eye to eye on the realistic robbery rule. The situation where a civilian has to be very careful looking over his shoulder for a simple two-minute drive to his job seems both unrealistic and unwanted. I agree that there should be more to do for criminals, but I feel some members replying in this topic are clearly overlooking there's way more potential to criminal roleplay than things that negatively impact civilian roleplay.

To add a few points myself:

- I agree with the earlier statement that currently the criminal side of roleplay is focused too much on static things like the chop shop. However, if more dynamic options like the newly-introduced drugtable could be introduced I think that would very well help the originality and the dynamic in criminal roleplay.

- Illegal guns seem quite hard to obtain nowadays. Maybe it's an idea to make it possible, albeit a bit more expensive, for non-official factions to import them?

- To add more variety to the chop chops and to possibly reduce the suggested camping, add more dynamic spots and with that inclusion, the possibility of having two open at the same time?

about the point of chop shops, I've made this post a close to a year ago: 

 

[sasanmohamade]

- 1

do not MG this pleas 

already crime RP It has become very strong how ?????????

1.buy a RV you can use a house 

2.import a 12 table for 30k (laptop price) place it inside you RV or your house have access to unlimited materials start cooking for 2 hours you will earn around 100 k 

and you can easily hit 1m in 12 day 

 

6 hours ago, CallumMontie said:

- Chopshops are dead, outdated and camped permanently by law enforcement due to their static nature.

council him self destroy the chop shops by robbing people in chophops Shaving their hair and insulting them why some one should chop a car again 

not taxing only rob ((any thing you on  have is mine ))

same whit drug labs 
old days before drugs update soon as you walk in a drug lab some random dude whit a gang color robb you and leave and they force you to leave the lab 

and funny think he leave whit you he dont wanna cock but he dont wanna you cook 

6 hours ago, CallumMontie said:

The rules - 90% of the rules place criminals at a daily disadvantage and heavily limit any form of their RP.

yes but robbing some one Belong drug labs not in middle  of the street or drop of point Crime RP have this server for 2 YEARS and server was unplayable for other players think getting robb buy same guy  3 time  in butcher in 1 hours and you cant do any thing about it because he log in in game only for destroying other players Experience in game  

did you check mining or other oil job every one is happy whit new rules and enjoy playing 

6 hours ago, CallumMontie said:

There is literally zero reason for competition between any criminals, or dynamics to even have conflict over.

if you are talking about gangs the all disbanded (irish , wanted ,misfit, NLA , Russian mafia,WCA, seaweed ,........) and is happend soon to others small  gangs 

himmmm let me show you how gangs work in eclipse

player 2 : you have gang ?

player 3 : yes I want to have a meeting with the big gangs 

player 2: ok lets go and talk 

player 44 : ok i am the leader and rules is very simple you dont hit us we dont hit you . every week you should pay your  tax .and if you want heavy guns you buy it from us 

player 3 : ok sound good

2 weeks later 

player 44: just wanna let you know we are in a war and green , yellow and pick gang they are whit us

player 3 : what did we do !!!!?????

player 44 : i dont now i just feels you guys not respect us or you can pay us every week 3m and then we are good 

player 3 : i am going whit war we dont have 3m 

2 days later 

disbanded

 

 

 

 

[ParsaPelox]

32 minutes ago, sasanmohamade said:

- 1

do not MG this pleas 

already crime RP It has become very strong how ?????????

1.buy a RV you can use a house 

2.import a 12 table for 30k (laptop price) place it inside you RV or your house have access to unlimited materials start cooking for 2 hours you will earn around 100 k 

and you can easily hit 1m in 12 day 

 

council him self destroy the chop shops by robbing people in chophops Shaving their hair and insulting them why some one should chop a car again 

not taxing only rob ((any thing you on  have is mine ))

same whit drug labs 
old days before drugs update soon as you walk in a drug lab some random dude whit a gang color robb you and leave and they force you to leave the lab 

and funny think he leave whit you he dont wanna cock but he dont wanna you cook 

yes but robbing some one Belong drug labs not in middle  of the street or drop of point Crime RP have this server for 2 YEARS and server was unplayable for other players think getting robb buy same guy  3 time  in butcher in 1 hours and you cant do any thing about it because he log in in game only for destroying other players Experience in game  

did you check mining or other oil job every one is happy whit new rules and enjoy playing 

if you are talking about gangs the all disbanded (irish , wanted ,misfit, NLA , Russian mafia,WCA, seaweed ,........) and is happend soon to others small  gangs 

himmmm let me show you how gangs work in eclipse

player 2 : you have gang ?

player 3 : yes I want to have a meeting with the big gangs 

player 2: ok lets go and talk 

player 44 : ok i am the leader and rules is very simple you dont hit us we dont hit you . every week you should pay your  tax .and if you want heavy guns you buy it from us 

player 3 : ok sound good

2 weeks later 

player 44: just wanna let you know we are in a war and green , yellow and pick gang they are whit us

player 3 : what did we do !!!!?????

player 44 : i dont now i just feels you guys not respect us or you can pay us every week 3m and then we are good 

player 3 : i am going whit war we dont have 3m 

2 days later 

disbanded

 

 

 

 

?

[Alithyera]

I took a break from ECRP because of lack of RP and choke hold of criminals, now its being even more limited I'm just thinking to myself, fuck is the point of coming back...

[Felcon]

10 minutes ago, sasanmohamade said:

2.import a 12 table for 30k (laptop price) place it inside you RV or your house have access to unlimited materials start cooking for 2 hours you will earn around 100 k

So much wrong in this one sentence. Tables are 7k a piece ( laptop price ) and by placing it doesnt mean you get access to unlimited materials lol? You need to risk going to labs for plants and get robbed. You need to order supplies and risk getting swatted and there is a very limited supply on it.  Lets say you make cocaine and you want 100k in 2 hours? Instead of stating stuff you dont know let me show you the math.

Coke at the best price wuld be around 800$ 

You would need 125 Cocaine. out of the 125 cocaine you invest 200 per piece so 25.000 out of the 100K will be 75.000. this is excluding the gathering weed plants and supplies. 

So you would get 10 coke tables which is an investment of like 75.000 to start off so if you wanna make 12.5 Cocaine per table it will take around 2 hours for yes 100K but you dont add the variable that you first of all need to invest around 100K in supplies alone. so if you really want profit you would need to cook for 4 hours for around 75k profit. this is without taking the risk in factor where you can lose your 100k investment. So no criminal is not that easy. 

[MPheonix]

8 hours ago, CallumMontie said:

Unfortunately it's slowly getting to the point where these OOC limitations are driving myself, my gang members and other criminals away from investing as much time into criminal roleplay. Even those who have been long term members of the community feel like they're being essentially shoved out with the new changes.

Seems to be the intention.

[nikoh]

14 minutes ago, Icarus2766 said:

I completely support the cap because it improves Roleplay instead of the large scale stronghold that the top three gangs currently have. Of course any criticism of the "Big Three" always get the same response "We spent a long time building up our gangs and just because you don't want to get clapped you complain" Which is completely incorrect, IC and OOC i respect what these gangs have done but I never see the people who complain about the things that scriptly benefit them. If you add up the Zetas and Triads and Aztecas members and people who aren't members or gang members of other gangs but would back them close to half of all active criminals in the city and it has always been the same system. Number one and two at the top, number three comes along and get official so one and two go to war with number three and rinse and repeat. Now its the same except its one, two and three against whoever is number four and thats the way it will be forver unless caps come into place or the war rules are changed. The war rules are a benefit to the large gangs because smaller gangs cant keep the fight going as long as they want or go dark or use any form of guerilla warfare but instead can be forced to surrender and lose stuff from an ooc decision

What gang limits themselves realistically to 40 members? If another gang wants to contest for a top spot they should prepare themselves. That can take a over a year as it did for the current top gangs. Form alliances without the top gangs, build up resources, capital, bodies. The entire issue here is the OOC restriction on IC roleplay that has developed. All the nonsense about people getting smoked is because that’s how it played out ICly. This tunnel vision shit is getting so old.

 

Every gang can do what the Triads and Zetas have done. They just don’t know how. That has caused us being restricted Out of Character. 

 

It sounds stupidly simple but if you want to get the top spot, you’ll have to roleplay better than we have over the past year. Plain and simple. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by DetectiveStone

[MrUntouchable215]

I don't see how people are not comprehending that this player cap legit only serves to cut these factions entirely. As if some new gang is going to show up, have 40 members and all of a sudden his situation on ECRP improves because he has 20 less members. People argue "The Council" The Council will always be a thing, now you have less members, so good luck covering those time zones. During the next war @Icarus2766 you're going to see, that it's not just us that's limited, it's you as well. While you struggle to maintain against time zones, The Council will be just as big. I've also been noticing that these same people who held such a strong opinion on improving CrimRP in the past and telling people to "get over it" are the same people now flipping the script.

[CaesarSeizure]

I think there is a need for OOC control no matter the gang, as simply there are not enough IC consequences to deal with this.

From an outsiders POV, i think that the council just has too many resources at this point to realistically be challenged, no matter what gangs rise up against them. This is also largely due to the limitations gangs have if they are not official so you end up fighting an uphill battle just to come close.

[apologisemeow]

Saying you need an ic reason to house raid somebody is all that is wrong with crim rp its the one place you're pretty much guaranteed loot, i have only ever been crim but now i find myself like many others having zero motivation to play as a criminal giving the restrictions.

[MrUntouchable215]

12 minutes ago, Icarus2766 said:

Honestly I am looking at all of this from a purely OOC Rp and server enjoyment perspective, I have never been high command in a gang zo I have no idea what goes on IC. For all I know the Council are the good guys all this time and everyone elese has just been messing around. All I am saying is I don't want to see changes just to see the Zetas and Triads to lose, I just want to see a more dynamic and diverse Gang RP in the city. Of course the people in those two gangs are not wanting to get a disadvantage to see that happen but there lies the conflict.

But we're not the ones getting a disadvantage, smaller factions are. They don't feel it yet because they don't have the time zone issues when it comes to being official, but once you become official and feel even the previous cap, you're going to be at a big disadvantage number wise. You see, the Council consists of multiple groups with multiple time frames. The problem here is putting in so much work involving recruitment, only to be told we're getting another cap out of nowhere. Cap or not, if people want to hang around Zetas, they will. We're not going to push people away because there's a new cap rofl. This legit only serves to cut member counts and that has absolutely no correlation to new factions forming in the future. We're going to do the same shit we did with 60 members, with the new cap. Nothing changes on that front.

 So no, it makes absolutely zero sense to implement a change that's as random and limiting as this. We've been abiding by the previous cap for two years, just to get fucked on and told it's being reduced, again. That's extremely disappointing and I feel like we're being treated like idiots honestly. Not to sound rude, but that's exactly how it feels. "Who gives a shit how it effects you, you'll play anyway and if you don't, bye" type of mentality. This literally got shoved down our throats at random.

This also effects LoA's as well. With a 60 member cap, if someone makes an LoA for personal life reasons, you're able to slightly fill that gap. Now? When someone takes an LoA, you're short 1 man out of 40 and it's only going to get worse. I bet my bottom dollar that none of that shit was even factored in. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by MrUntouchable215

[nikoh]

2 minutes ago, MrUntouchable215 said:

That's extremely disappointing and I feel like we're being treated like idiots honestly. Not to sound rude, but that's exactly how it feels. "Who gives a shit how it effects you, you'll play anyway and if you don't, bye" type of mentality. This literally got shoved down our throats at random.

This has been the reason why a lot of our veteran players are losing their motivation to continue. This needs to be addressed and brought to light.

[MrUntouchable215]

5 minutes ago, Icarus2766 said:

It is a step in the right direction, it might negatively affect smaller gangs in the city right now but it is a step in the right direction. And I woild hope that the Zeta and Triads have gained enough respect ooc and have enough respect for the server admins to not try and find loopholes around the member cap and if so another change might need to be made

That's not a loophole. If people want to hang around us and bang shit out with us, we're not going to turn that down period. We can't have 60 members, but close friends are okay and the moment i get told that I can't hang out with another group on some abusive parent shit, that's it for me cuz. This is genuinely a step in the wrong direction and players are going to feel that one way or another. 

[kenichis]

8 hours ago, CallumMontie said:

 - Natural conflict over turfs etc is non-existent as turfs were removed.

I agree with most this post has to say but I think this line in particular is false. In my opinion over the last 4 months when I was still active on a criminal character natural conflict over turfs definitely existed. One of the biggest examples is the Ballas and WCA conflict that started over WCA contesting Ballas' claim over Grove street. This was something that happened naturally without the need of any script. A smaller example is a brief conflict between Ballas and the short lived gang "EBK." Shortly after Ballas claimed Jamestown, EBK attempted to contest that claim and was eventually targeted by the Ballas.

I think should the Triads (example as it is your personal faction) choose to operate in a "turf" someone could surely come into natural conflict with them. I know that in many RP stories Triads mention control over Little Seoul but very rarely do I see anyone there. I think should you choose to RP there more often just driving around and making your presence known someone will soon come into natural conflict with you and generate RP.