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The Ruined State of Criminal RP

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2 minutes ago, kris giggs said:

Integrity is something that you obviously lack, it's an obvious paradox you're stating things that are self-contradictory meaning you don't stand behind what you say, it's having an opposite effect, you want to get the rule removed because it gives you no leniency yet when it comes to you getting robbed you impose it blindly, I do not expect you, your leader or anyone else reading this to understand, but the neutral parties surely will. I'll avoid replying anymore since some people are using the thread to unleash their pent up frustrations and I do not want to be a part of it, I hope your voyage to improve your perception of criminal roleplay goes well.

Rich coming from a gang that moaned about smaller gangs using cops then proceeded to do exactly that. 

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+1 I do agree with everything said in this post. I came back to town recently and I joined Triads. After being in Triads for maybe a week i stopped playing. It isn't fun to afk cook in your property to earn money, as a criminal. There needs to be more to do other than cooking. Make it more risky and fun. 

A friend and I we made a server once back 2017, we didn't really release the server public, but we just fucked around on it. It was on something called GT-MP, which Eclipse also ran on, before switching to Rage. 

So our drug system worked this way:
1. You had to get weed seeds for an unknown dealer that had 3 random spawnpoints. 
2. You could plant the seed anywhere and also in your gang territory. (Took 15 Irl min to grow fully)
3. After the weed had grown, you had to process it. 

4. To process it you had to have a truck, which you could load a Pallet onto. 
5. After loading the pallet and the truck being full with processed weed, you had to go to Los Santos airport, and load it into a plane. 
6. When you were done loading the pallets into the plane, you had to fly it to the airstrip close Sandyshore. Not the big one but the small dirt one across the Lake. (Forgot the name)
7. When you landed the plane you had to drive the plane close to the one hangar there is, and you got the opportunity to "Load off cargo". And then you made your cash. 

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6 minutes ago, kris giggs said:

Integrity is something that you obviously lack, it's an obvious paradox you're stating things that are self-contradictory meaning you don't stand behind what you say, it's having an opposite effect, you want to get the rule removed because it gives you no leniency yet when it comes to you getting robbed you impose it blindly, I do not expect you, your leader or anyone else reading this to understand, but the neutral parties surely will. I'll avoid replying anymore since some people are using the thread to unleash their pent up frustrations and I do not want to be a part of it, I hope your voyage to improve your perception of criminal roleplay goes well.

Is this coming from the guy that reported someone for robbing him in grove street while it being a public place....then proceeded to rob someone at a clothing store.......

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19 minutes ago, kris giggs said:

The core issue is that you don't believe what you say, you've no backing of it and emotions oftenly cloud your opinon, I am quite surprised by the amount of people getting heated over what I said, but to get back to the discussion can you please explain why you question the new robbing rule yet use them benefit firsthand, and then again speak about OOC barriers and restrictions, hypocrisy.

 

Damn thats crazy my nigga, almost like it was a clothing store not a random street.

Stop bringing it back to your personal issues and move on cause frankly you look like a child on the notty stop crying. 

As said prior, let's get it back on topic please, can all the members upset about their ex-gangs relations take a moment and at least attempt to be constructive. 

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1 hour ago, kris giggs said:

The core issue is that you don't believe what you say, you've no backing of it and emotions oftenly cloud your opinon, I am quite surprised by the amount of people getting heated over what I said, but to get back to the discussion can you please explain why you question the new robbing rule yet use them benefit firsthand, and then again speak about OOC barriers and restrictions, hypocrisy.

 

I agree with the core of the robbery rules and the goal they intended to achieve, but I personally believe the implementation/wording in the rule itself has been sloppy to say the least. Clothing store/Gas Station/Miner/Farmer robberies during the day absolutely should not exist, this was the main way that civilians were being battered in the prior ruleset. However, robberies during the day in areas such as Jamestown, Grove Street, The Barrio, Stab, Puprle Dino, Sandy Shores, etc. would realistically happen IRL, these are all places isolated from rapid response times as well as being much more "ghetto" neighborhoods. I see no reason why players should not be looking over their shoulders in shady places that are notoriously gang controlled. As for my report, I think Timmaay put it better than I could: 

Yes, we believe the reported parties had motive to commit the robbery, however, the way in which it was carried out was NON RP and poor role-play. Robbing others at a public clothing store so openly at a busy time is unrealistic. Ways this could have been avoided would have been to plan out better role-play. This could have been done multiple ways. Examples:
- Have one or two members discreetly role-play holding a gun to the victims and moving them as opposed to several people coming in guns blazing in a public area with witnesses.
- Follow and plan an RP scenario where you can catch the intended victim in a discreet area. 
- Conduct an ambush or setup.

As a note, I was in rooks from their conception to just before coming official and in that time progressed to be high command along with Al Romano. While we were in Rooks, the council - more notably the Triads - had an extremely close relationship with us, commonly aiding each other in their efforts and reaching diplomatic solutions to various issues that arose. We had implemented our own tax system on the smaller gangs around us, and were very successful in maintaining peace by doing so. Due to us developing close ties with the majority of High Command in Triads at the time along with internal turmoil within the gang Al and I left together to go to the Triads. We did not leave because "Triads big", we left because of our IC friendships we had developed and we felt our skills and standards would be better upheld in the Triads than anywhere else.

Someone following a similar path as we ventured, which comprises a fair amount of our current members; would not have the same opportunity today due to an OOC member cap. The best part is the only reason I can see as to why it has been implemented is because FM felt like it.

At the end of the day, we will continue to adapt to any poorly implemented rules /ooc limits / limiting script that is put in our way. It would just be stupid to not try to fight it, especially considering this post has well over 3500 views with the overwhelming majority of comments supporting the core arguments.

Edited by Zion Willard
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I completely agree with Bruce's post. I especially think the "public" areas rule is difficult. I understand the need to protect non-crim players from constant harassment.  My character was legal for a long time and it gets tedious having to constantly worry about being robbed just getting from point a to point b, or standing in a clothing store hindered by scripts.  However, crim-on-crim crime shouldn't be held down by the same rules.  If there's an RP reason to accost someone it should be allowed, whether this be gang retaliation or warfare.  IRL drive-bys and other public violence happens quite often where gangs are concerned. Since we don't have drive-bys then I think public hold up of rivals or retliation targets should definitely be allowed, even in RPly crowded areas.  Also I would suggest that there needs to be some big advantage to using the existing scripted drug labs, like speed, so that players actually use them and there are more criminals at-large to be targets for other criminals.  Finally, I agree the chops are a mess. It's almost unusable due to constant police intervention and this used to be a big source of criminal RP.  Keep in mind, just because police RPers want constant RP with criminals doesn't mean criminals want constant RPers with cops.  We want to interact with each other doing illegal things. Not sure what else to say here. Thanks for the post, Bruce!

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6 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

I think it's very clear that smaller organizations do like the cap on members, and it's only the really big factions that want to keep recruiting. There already is a very strong IC monopoly in the server, and if you remove the member cap, there will be no more new factions, as all the new people will just join the biggest, until we have a certain faction at 300, and another at 300, and that is when the smaller gangs will have issues. Not when everything is capped.

In my opinion, removing the player cap on gangs is a big no-no for the health of the server. 

I agree with this, I thing a way to encourage more gangs in the city is to make becoming official easier than it currently is, OR adding more things criminals can do that can be more lucrative

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My view on this always steers towards creating a more RP heavy environment. Sadly, I do not have any experience in any official gang, but what I can keep stressing to the founders and staff team as a whole,  is do some market research!, hell I will even gladly provide said research for you provided you don't ban me for mentioning other servers. It is so unbelievably easy to go to other competitors who have managed to create a good heavy RP environment that is also fun. Obviously this isn't the solution to every problem as Eclipse has problems that are unique, but a lot of what is complained about on a daily basis already has solutions.

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1 minute ago, Architer said:

There's not a lot to add to this discussion, as a person who plays on a criminal and legal character, I agree with everything that was originally posted. It's sad to see members that have put their time into their official faction getting removed due to the fact that the cap is 40 now.

For clarity: No one is required to remove members over this, they just cant recruit past 40. 

I find this topic very weird because there are issues with Criminal RP, but only really recent changes are mentioned and none of the actual 'Long term' issues have been addressed.

99% of people complaining about crime RP are looking for a way to justifiably shoot each-other again without catching a report. Shootouts have been slowly removed over time and the majority of criminals on this server love shooting. They use to reliably just hit drug labs in a circle over and over and find a shootout, but now the labs are essentially empty. 

Adding script support that forces player to player interactions among criminals is a key way of providing justifiable shootouts. For instance the drug 'steroid' gives you a benefit of speed when consumed giving it a "player to player" trade value. This sort of player to player interaction is what criminals need in my opinion.

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as a player who has experienced both fighting against and now being apart of the council i can say that from what i have seen their goal has never been to wipe out for no reason they usually have a valid reason for what they do i think a lot of people twist shit for whatever reason but that's their problem. I have fought against them as a leader of seaweed then again as a member of the wanted and for a short period as a rook and although it ended up with most of the groups disbanding i feel it was the natural progression of the rp that was happening at the time. The Azteca's were nearly wiped out by council but where able to repair their relations and continue building so to say a group can't cross the council and continue to build i think has been shown to be false. You have to be smart , dedicated and work your politics while keeping  your relationships strong so they can endure during times of conflict and make sure you have a group of individuals that's willing to keep fighting for what your trying to build. I think lowering the cap over all just becomes another obstacle newer groups will have to find a way to cope while older groups will always have the distinct advantage because of their relations and connections made over time.

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25 minutes ago, HighTV said:

For clarity: No one is required to remove members over this, they just cant recruit past 40. 

I find this topic very weird because there are issues with Criminal RP, but only really recent changes are mentioned and none of the actual 'Long term' issues have been addressed.

99% of people complaining about crime RP are looking for a way to justifiably shoot each-other again without catching a report. Shootouts have been slowly removed over time and the majority of criminals on this server love shooting. They use to reliably just hit drug labs in a circle over and over and find a shootout, but now the labs are essentially empty. 

Adding script support that forces player to player interactions among criminals is a key way of providing justifiable shootouts. For instance the drug 'steroid' gives you a benefit of speed when consumed giving it a "player to player" trade value. This sort of player to player interaction is what criminals need in my opinion.

Did you not read the post or just comment as soon as you saw who posted? He mentions script support, or a lack thereof, as a primary reason for stale crim RP.

Also saying that 99% of people just want to shoot discounts all the RP that goes on within gangs, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The new war rules aimed to create an environment that encourages RP over endless shootouts, and I think the majority of people involved were happy with that.  Claiming that 99% of people who don't agree with you "are looking for a way to justifiably shoot each-other again without catching a report" is disingenuous and patronising. 

You mention that the post doesn't address the "long term" issues with crim RP. Why not bring these up yourself rather than simply shitting on the post just because you have a grudge against the person posting.

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3 minutes ago, DrWeeden said:

as a player who has experienced both fighting against and now being apart of the council i can say that from what i have seen their goal has never been to wipe out for no reason they usually have a valid reason for what they do i think a lot of people twist shit for whatever reason but that's their problem. I have fought against them as a leader of seaweed then again as a member of the wanted and for a short period as a rook and although it ended up with most of the groups disbanding i feel it was the natural progression of the rp that was happening at the time. The Azteca's were nearly wiped out by council but where able to repair their relations and continue building so to say a group can't cross the council and continue to build i think has been shown to be false. You have to be smart , dedicated and work your politics while keeping  your relationships strong so they can endure during times of conflict and make sure you have a group of individuals that's willing to keep fighting for what your trying to build. I think lowering the cap over all just becomes another obstacle newer groups will have to find a way to cope while older groups will always have the distinct advantage because of their relations and connections made over time.

This.

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This is going to hurt the players that are unable to play more then 2 or 3 hours a day as gangs want active players.

So gangs are supposed to kick members because of OOC reasons? this is just sad

Edited by NM369
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8 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

I think it's very clear that smaller organizations do like the cap on members, and it's only the really big factions that want to keep recruiting.

From a smaller gang standpoint, you'd want a better chance at taking over the bigger gangs.. Of course they enjoy the idea. Less people to fight. For bigger gangs, we've worked to recruit high quality members. We had a cap at 60 members, it's not like we could recruit forever.

8 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

There already is a very strong IC monopoly in the server, and if you remove the member cap, there will be no more new factions, as all the new people will just join the biggest, until we have a certain faction at 300, and another at 300, and that is when the smaller gangs will have issues.

The IC monopoly was built over time. It's not something permanent, the council has changed multiple times throughout it's existence. Just look at NLA, they built themselves up and put themselves in a place to expand and make their own moves/decisions. New factions pop up all the time. Triads, Zetas, NLA, and even WCA were new factions at some point. You can't expect to have this stuff handed to you because you want it; that's just being entitled.

 

And I'm not sure where this "300" thing is coming from. We were already capped at 60 members, it was just now dropped down to 40 as we were approaching the 60 member limits.

 

If you want to see change in the server, make it happen ICly. Seaweed, Wanted, Rooks, Vory, Russian Mafia, and WCA all had chances to make a difference in the server and via In-Character means failed to do so. If they played their cards right, they would be the ones on the top right now. Los Aztecas were able to do make moves, why can't anyone else?

 

8 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

In my opinion, removing the player cap on gangs is a big no-no for the health of the server. 

Nobody asked to remove member caps. We don't want to be hit with a member cap without explanation. We don't want to lose 33% of our members for seemingly no reason when PD+SD is at 200+ with recruitment open. There was nothing wrong with the 60 member caps. Don't try to fix something that's not broken.

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Criminal RP has been on the decline for months now, and I truly just want the answer to the simple question, why? 

Why is criminal RP the target for these rules? Is it because we're too good at what we do as criminals? That has to be one of the reasons.

Script Support:
- What kind of script support do criminals have? If you're not official, you literally have nothing. If you're official you use what, /fmembers and /f 0? Amazing commands for RP huh?
- Having laptop for being official is a blessing and a great privilege. However, what kind of RP comes from that? Most you'll get is police in which would most likely result in a shootout for the contents of the package.

Robbery/Crime Limitations:
- Lets be completely honest with ourselves here. The new rules, because they're not specific enough and is just insanely vague, makes it so that criminals cannot perform crimes. Yes, there were petty crimes done before the rule change, however, are you sure that was Zetas/Triads/Official Criminal Factions? There are so many random solo criminals that rob civilians as well. I'm not sure from other official crim factions, but I know that Triads hold a high standard when it comes to robbing someone. If the reward isn't high, we usually don't even attempt. If only FM/whoever is making these rules see how many times we call things off due to it being petty or of low reward (not worth).
- More crime will result in more police activity. You can tell that the certain police mains that are against lifting/modifying this rule just want to collect that paycheck. PD saying "there's nothing to do" only proves that this rule needs to be adjusted. I understand the reasoning behind this rule, but it needs to be more specific and concise. There has been multiple times when someone runs over me/ally with their vehicle, and then goes to the highway chillin in their vehicle saying "you cant rob me here" IRL would someone being the victim of a robbery say that? No, with multiple people pointing guns at you while you're in your vehicle, you would attempt to flee/comply to demands. This shows that with this rule not being specific enough, people are ignoring FearRP, disengaging in RP, attempting to pause RP with no admin present, going into /b immediately threatening to report. Maybe do something like "no robberies in places of business" (clothing stores, gas stations, general stores, etc).

Faction Management: 
- I understand the purpose of FM and why they are where they are. However, it doesn't seem fair to the organization of people that actually ICly RP with their crim characters to be subject to oppression by FM. We have built everything from ground up and has never been shackled down this bad by FM/Staff before. There's obviously been a perspective change somewhere along the way.
- The OOC limitations on IC actions is getting out of hand. Police provoke a shootout that we're trying to avoid, they lose and we get punished OOCly for it just because they cried about it? I know the war rules was a rough draft put into effect before it was ready but can we have a revision and something done about the requirements for certain aspects? In the war rules it states that if they are: 1. held captive for 24hrs, you're war killed / 2. lose the hq hold for 24 hrs, lose the war. THEN it says on the last line that "in the end, faction management will ultimately decide if someone is war-killed". Seriously? So why even put the 24 hour cap on the war rules if it doesn't even matter. During the WCA war, we held their hq for 4-5 days straight, maybe even longer, we held multiple enemy persons captive for over 24 hours, yet war wasn't over. I get it, you want them to have a fair chance. Hint hint, don't start a war if you don't have the funds/resources to do so. FM should be helping us pass on messages to higher power and truly understand our perspective and WHY we want changes and help us PUSH for the changes, not just "okay i'll pass it on" and nothing gets done, and when something does get done it's against us. Also, sometimes when we try to bring something that holds value to us up to FM to help make a change for the better, we get shutdown. I'm sure that happens in all other criminal factions as well.

Criminal Faction Member Cap:
- So how does this make sense at all? Gangs IRL don't have a member cap and we're already at a disadvantage with a cap of 60. To decrease it to 40 would just put us MORE at a disadvantage. If it's to balance out the gangs, there's so many other ways to go about "taking out the council" for a lack of a better phrase. These smaller gangs can join together, form an alliance and go against us. I'm sure the numbers would be the same if they did. It's due to the fact that the smaller gangs are FIGHTING EACH OTHER in which they cannot take the "top spot" if you will, but that's something they have to figure out themselves ICly.
- Law enforcement combined with PD/SD/DOC/and sometimes I've seen medics pull up to shootouts and shoot to help PD. With everyone, they ALREADY outnumber Zetas/Triads. And with PD continuing to recruit at 150+ they'll hit 200+ alone. And with SD at ~50, through time, they'll get up to that 150+ mark considering the population of the server booming.
- If it's to help smaller gangs rise up, how can they if they're capped at 40, unless it's only an official crim faction thing. In that case, you're letting unofficial gangs recruit uncapped? So it's either okay for unofficial gangs to get 100+ people, while official gangs, who has worked so hard sweating, bleeding, crying to earn the right to become official have to suffer at a cap of 40? 
- A few things to consider: 
     1. timezone differences, we don't have everyone on at the same time, we barely have 1/6 online at a time in different timezones, don't you think an official gang should be occupying majority of the timezones to spread out presence?
     2. inactive players, in every single faction people go on LOA's for personal reasons. so if we have let's say 10 people on LOA we'll only have 30 active people, how will that cover all timezones as people have IRL lives and things to attend to and cannot be on the server 24/7.
- The way I see it, there's only 3 reasons why the cap was put in place
     1. PD is getting smoked so they want to reduce our numbers asking for OOC help
     2. Small gangs can't think of the big picture with big brains on how to come at us so they need OOC help
     3. We're too good at what we do

Summary: 
- Again, it's just another law enforcement buff and a criminal nerf
- Criminals feel oppressed by the system, its 2020 not 1619

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13 hours ago, HighTV said:

The new Criminal Faction Member Cap will hopefully spread out some of the veteran RPers and allow for more official factions than we currently have. It will also give smaller criminal organizations a chance against the will of a 120 man alliance with script support.

I can see that you want more smaller-sized groups instead of less larger-sized groups. However, this can be achieved In-Character. Why does there need to be an Out-of-Character way to do this? If people want to start their own faction, they're more than welcome to!

13 hours ago, HighTV said:

Lack of potential crimes low level criminals can do to interact with police/criminals to initiate shootouts (99% of the people here just miss shooting)
Lack of detective RP for high level criminals to interact with. (There isn't much interaction/interrogation most the time its cut/dry.)

You should take a look at our faction thread and read through it. There are plenty of stories written that do not involve shooting. We just want some interaction with other players. Whether that be gun sales, diplomacy, drug sales, etc., we want to increase the opportunity for these things.

As for detective RP, I would agree. There is not a lot of interaction/interrogation. I would like to see PD doing more when the opportunity arises (this does not mean I want them to try and do more to find us, but do more when they find us).

1 hour ago, HighTV said:

I find this topic very weird because there are issues with Criminal RP, but only really recent changes are mentioned and none of the actual 'Long term' issues have been addressed.

I've addressed some long term issues on the second page of this thread. I don't want to get into a lot out of fear of being banned, but you should just take a look and see if you agree/disagree. 

1 hour ago, HighTV said:

99% of people complaining about crime RP are looking for a way to justifiably shoot each-other again without catching a report.

99% of people miss interacting with other players. We're criminals, not civilians. It should be expected, like it was before the rule changes/updates, to be on your toes about where you're at and what risks come with the place that you're in. Nowadays, people abuse the rule change for their own personal gain as others have said, "a glorified NCZ". NCZ abuse was already rampant, and the changes did not do what they were intended to do.

1 hour ago, HighTV said:

Shootouts have been slowly removed over time and the majority of criminals on this server love shooting.

Shootouts being slowly removed over time has nothing to do with the reasoning behind this thread. It's not like we actively seek shootouts for fun. If we wanted to do that we'd just go play GTA Online. You can't speak on behalf of majority criminals when you don't represent the same opinions as them.

1 hour ago, HighTV said:

They use to reliably just hit drug labs in a circle over and over and find a shootout, but now the labs are essentially empty. 

Hitting drug labs for us was a way to interact with other players. You'd start to see which groups were trying to make a name for themselves, stay in contact with them and develop RP relationships with them. If someone had something of value to us, we could rob them. If we wanted to hangout as a group and make some cash, we could chill at a lab and setup shop for a few hours while hanging with other crew members. There's three role play opportunities in itself that come from running and holding drug labs.

This would also give SD some action up north, providing roleplay for them as well and even PD if it was necessary.

1 hour ago, HighTV said:

Adding script support that forces player to player interactions among criminals is a key way of providing justifiable shootouts.

It doesn't even need to be shootouts, it can just be interactions among other players. If we had more guns/ammo in the laptop, we could be interacting with other groups and players developing RP with them. That is just one example of what could be done to provide opportunities.

 

I understand your perspective on some ideas, but hopefully you see where we're coming from as well.

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To round this off, as it has been shown over the 6 pages of responses received in less than a day that many criminals agree with the initial statement, along with providing counter arguments and added sections throughout.

I really hope this discussion is taken seriously by the staff who dedicate their time to evaluate the thread, and some further positive changes can be pushed forward for criminals as a result of this.

It's a sad day to watch a large section of the older player base essentially dwindle away as their opinions are often swept under the rug.

Thanks,

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The fact of the matter is ~50% of the characters that have been developed on Eclipse from 2017 till 2020 have been either PD or Criminal related. People have put thousands of hours into their characters and their relationships. You're now (and have been for the past year or so) taking away all of the content and RP that we've grown to know and enjoy on these characters. It's not being replaced with anything else to accommodate for whats been removed. As we've seen in this thread prior from criminals and PD members, if you're going to continue to keep killing criminal RP you're going to kill police RP. If you give no content for 50% of the characters that have been developed on the server, don't be surprised when people start fussing about it or stop playing eclipse all together. It seems like there is no input from the community into these changes before they're added (rules & content). The severe lack of communication from staff on what and why certain rules or content is added or removed is also appalling. I've never played a game before in the past 10 years where I've felt such a disconnect between the staff team and the community at large. Stop adding / removing content or changing rules and then 4 weeks later wait for a senior meeting behind closed doors to discuss the impact it has on the server. Start making community discussion posts on what rules or content you plan on changing, take input from your community, then modify / disregard it / put it into force based off of that input.

Edited by Copperhorse
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I quite literally stopped playing on the crim side largely because, as Bruce stated, there's nothing for criminals to do. Chops are dead and if they're not dead they're camped, drugs are inefficient (not saying that it should be easy to fly under the radar while producing illegal narcotics, but with 2-3 labs out of 5 down at any given time and having to fight off not only rival gangs but law enforcement as well from static labs, it was already difficult enough), the restrictions on robberies made "random" acts of violence against other gangs harder to carry out, and ordering weapons became virtually impossible not only to obtain for my personal use, but also to sell to the general populous/small upcoming gangs to make any kind of money or have any RP reason to approach them and interract/start relationships. It is the most Non-RP thing ever to see known criminals working toll booths and driving GOPostals. MEGA +1 to everything said by Bruce, Al, Flint, Liam and others. I miss my friends on the criminal side SO much and I'm still holding out hope that SOMETHING changes so that I can return, but for a long time it's seemed like server leadership wants nothing more than to rid the server of ANY kind of criminal RP.

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in my opinion criminal, RP is dead 2 months ago and to be honest, I'm not making fun anymore in the server there is nothing to do as a criminal I join the server drive around for 2/3 hours and leave 
-Criminal Faction Member Cap:
I don't know why gang members should be limited so every gang  should kick 20 members for OCC reason why we don't limit PD members they recruiting every week and you need to wait for 1-week max to join them  when you spent 3/4 weeks to join an official gang 
everyone know that PD complain all times about zetas/triads OP the problem is they bait shootouts, lose then complain every single fight 
when they lose they start chasing arresting us for no reason and you cant do nothing about that if they cant handle 3 gangs they need to stop abusing 
and let's talk about small gangs who complaining about councils killing small gangs for no reason just for fun I was part of many small gangs before joining triads and never seen zetas/triads pushing a gang to war if leaders cant handle and lead their gangs that's their problem 
we all know all gangs start with 4/8 members max and they build themselves alone why we should destroy all that for OCC reason 

I don't want to give the gang name but I know a gang start OCC recruitment  and inviting players from the LTU server to come early hours to fight the war and now they complain about the number and recruitment

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Disagree with letting the main gangs recruit more people. You have to be realistic with ratios, there has to be a balance. Already main gangs are big enough, any problem you have is borderline powergaming fear rp.

 Cooking is almost worthless if your not an official gang. 

Criminal RP needs something. Needs some realistic independence. Give more middle men things to do. Smaller groups access to different tools . Not necessarily laptop to buy over seas, but people who can help manufacture weapons, specialist in different areas. Hit man faction, elites. Specialists that are different from official gangs. Call it Semi Official factions, i dont know. But there needs something more to do, access to different things.

Silencers, explosives, ect... can be home made with the right materials, not everything thats not a pistol has to be imported by an official super gang.I understand the balance that official gangs bring though. You cant have everyone making bombs so easily. But create some access for people to do things more on there own. 

Edited by AJ2toke
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