The Ruined State of Criminal RP

[Msato]

Over my time on the server I've played 90% of my time as a criminal, witnessing and partaking in many major events and changes that occurred.

For the last year~ criminal RP has been in a rapidly declining state, whether it be script support (drug update brought burst of life) or Rules (The primary issue).

Here are the issues broken down:

• Script support - There is literally zero reason for competition between any criminals, or dynamics to even have conflict over.
        - Any static script related to criminals is easily and heavily targeted.
        - Criminals are basically only scriptly enticed to cook drugs.
        - Chopshops are dead, outdated and camped permanently by law enforcement due to their static nature.
        - Gun sale RP is nonexistent due to current supply limited, whether it's heavies or pistols.
        - Natural conflict over turfs etc is non-existent as turfs were removed.
   
• The rules - 90% of the rules place criminals at a daily disadvantage and heavily limit any form of their RP.
        - Criminals are always worried of reports etc, even when following the rules. Creating a hesitance when wanting to RP.
        - Robbery changes killed off literally any random and dynamic conflict between criminals.
        - Report baiting is a large issue criminals face daily.
        - OOC restrictions either via rules or FM are far too involved in IC matters.

The main issues:

• New robbery and crime limitations - The newly implemented robbery rule were initially tested by crims prior to implementation and designed with taking the input of criminals into account. One of the main issues with this rule is it turns the majority of the map into a glorified NCZ for other criminals to abuse as protection. NCZ abuse already being a vary apparent issue within criminals, this just added to fueling the fire. What criminals initially asked for was some leeway when committing the crime, i.e pulling up in a smallish group, initiating the robbery and then urgently relocating it out of sight, whether that be via a minor kidnap or moving the target to an alleyway. However, the current rule restricts literally every form of public criminal engagement.
   
• Faction Management - FM currently hold a highly involved position with factions, even as far as limiting their IC relations, and other RP opportunities, whether that be conflicts, engaging in certain RP etc, limiting Faction membership. I fully understand the requirement for a Faction Management Team at an OOC level, they should be there to strive groups to improving their standards and constantly upping their RP levels. Not influencing an extremely large number IC matters via OOC means.
   
• Criminal Faction Member Cap - This was the tipping point for me, having been running Triads for around 17~ months currently, throughout the entire time we progressed naturally from 10 - 20 - 30 - 40 - 50 and to now 55 members, nearing on the old 60 member cap. However, as of this post this 60 member cap has been reduced by 33% for what seems like no reason. On average 1/3rd of the Faction Members are online in a given timezone, this will only make time zones dead zones. Personally I believe that a faction which has naturally progressed to this number of members, should be allowed to continue recruiting and managing themselves at a level where they have the resources to do so. Talking on my opinion for Triads specifically we have developed one of the most refined recruiting & training systems on the server, being a player founded faction, our management levels are on par and if not above current "Legal Factions" so why should we be subject to a member cap, whereas others are ranging anywhere from 40-150 members. This implementation will do nothing but demotivate and slowly OOCly remove current existing "large" gangs, for what seems to be no reason and this needs to be reverted. Not everything has to be a level playing field ICly, introducing further OOC caps on IC membership only entices this.
   

To wrap it up:
Unfortunately it's slowly getting to the point where these OOC limitations are driving myself, my gang members and other criminals away from investing as much time into criminal roleplay. Even those who have been long term members of the community feel like they're being essentially shoved out with the new changes. Something needs to change for a positive instead of a constant negative towards criminals. Yes it may seem like we always play the victim card, but this is due to the new limitations and introductions we are forced to deal with, often with minimal to no input requested from the members it will effect. I know personally, there are many criminals who are afraid to voice their opinions on this, but unfortunately that time has come.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, I really hope others take their time and constructively submit their opinions.

Edited May 28, 2020 by CallumMontie

[RAttlesnake7473]

Agreed with literally everything stated here, I've been slowly losing motivation when playing on my crim. Its to the point where I am able to apply for a legal job because of robbery rules making it impossible to attempt to rob someone and being in fear of a report. Feels like too much ooc is happening and not enough IC.

Edited May 28, 2020 by RAttlesnake7473

[mexicanwave]

+1 I've lost all my motivation to play which sucks considering the time myself and others have put into Triads. 

[Ezrya]

Couldn't agree more with this, as it stands I have spent most of my playtime as a criminal and I'm now at the point where I'm just burnt out and when I'm playing I'm just not enjoying myself. The main reason for this is the fact there's currently very little to do as a criminal which you have perfectly outlined the reasons. As you already stated its very difficult to do chop shop due to SD camping it, there's pretty much no competition between criminals due to ruleplaying the new robbery rules and I feel as if there's just too many OOC restrictions making crim RP unenjoyable. 

I'm the end these reasons are driving people away from wanting to get involved in criminal RP and I know people who have been involved in criminal RP for a long time are now turning more towards legal or just stopped playing all together. 

[UrbanAwsomeman]

As someone who only plays cop I agree something needs to be done for crim RP urgently. Criminal RP is currently very stale and especially with the new rule while protecting civilians has further made criminal RP boring. I only played on my criminal once in a blue moon but hes basically a civilian now as I am too afraid to rob anyone or steal things because I don't want to risk getting reported.

 

[MrUntouchable215]

Just recently found out about the new member cap and I have to say, I'm extremely disappointed in this. It feels like we're being choked out until we finally lose air. Knowing our pre's are instant denied, knowing in order to recruit again, we have to kick 20 members from our faction, this is diabolical. I've been pushing so hard, making discussions and suggestions and trying to push change on a more controlled platform and it just seems pointless. We've been at the 60 cap for so long and built so much shit around recruitment and to get this shoved down our throats really says a lot. When we became official, we personally had to remove lots of members and now we're being asked to do the same thing again if we want to maintain our recruitment. I honestly feel like whatever I say is just going to be ignored, it really doesn't feel like anyone gives a shit. 

+1 on everything you said above. 

[reeceobz]

Agree with everything said here. Robbing in very public places would always be a IC risk and a risk some were willing to take. If shit hit the fan and pd came there would be a high chance you'd go to jail. Currently I don't know where I stand on where to rob people and where not to. Where is too public and where isn't and your telling me if I fuck up by robbing someone in a place that they think is too public it gets taken ooc and I have to worry about a forum report for the next week not sure if I'm going to end up banned over something purely in character. What a joke. There is other ic ways around the number of robbery's that happen within the city. PD is uncapped why not set up a few patrols in robbery hot spots instead of having 15 officers chasing one car one by one in a straight line? We have seen security factions in the past with the purpose of protecting people like the miners, The forums have now taken their job. The ooc rule on robbery's is limiting the very few things we have. Law enforcement is there to protect and serve the forum reports are for rule breaks.

[Goaldan]

I agree with everything said in this post. I don't feel that it was right that the new 40 member cap was randomly dropped on us. I love this server and always will, but we need better communication between the admins and gang leaders (Not meant to come across as hostile, sorry if it sounds that way.) It feels as if there is a distance between both, and it'd help to open up communication a bit more. I can't speak for any other gangs. But in Triads, we've slowly built up over time and we were finally about to reach the 60 member cap. We ensured that we only took in people that would provide quality RP, we wanted people that we know would fit our community perfectly. 

Although it was not said that we need to kick members of the faction to get down to 40, it's sadly going to be inevitable. Having this new cap ultimately has ruined some of my plans to encourage more involved RP in the future for every faction. 

Hopefully this problem will be sorted as soon as possible, until then it's going to be a rocky round and I don't see a future where we can overcome yet another limitation. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Goaldan

[Dildeck]

Totally agree with these points!. Something needs to be done as there is a huge lack of crim rp

[LeftSharkie]

To the criminal faction leaders out there, did FM let you know why the cap was introduced? (out of curiosity)

Personally, from a PD perspective, when I got online recently (before the new cap) it already felt difficult finding gang members to RP with (from a Detective standpoint). Lots would have their phone off, some would simply be offline, and others would be doing normal things like working at toll booths. From my understanding the factions are not required to kick the extra 20 they have now; however, they cannot recruit until they get under 40. To me, lowering this (already somewhat low) cap severely reduces my role play experience even on the law enforcement side, as there will simply be much less people to RP with (1/3).

On the panel we can see that just LSPD alone is at 150 members. Together with LSCSD, thats slightly over 200 people. Currently the ratio between legal factions and criminal factions (excluding The Rooks) is slightly higher then half. There are around 120 members together in Los Zetas + LS Triads, and as previously mentioned 200 members in the LSPD + LSCSD side.

If the ratio is slightly over half and it is hard to find RP for me as a gangs detective, then when those 40 members go and the factions are at 40 members each, it will be worse. It is definitely possible that there is a good reason for these lowered caps, but at the moment I don't see it, and I am against them being lowered. 

As for everything else said on the thread, I agree with some of the points. I took a break from PD for around two months recently. The first month was a blast most nights. It was refreshing again, and there was stuff to do (mostly it was a blast bc of the people), but the second month, it became a little stale (drug update helped it a lot ngl). Then the war with WCA came around. The IC part was somewhat fun, but a lot of player reports and other OOC things came with it which took a lot of that fun away for people. 

As for the new robbery rules, I'm gonna remain neutral with that topic. 

[Hootless]

This is honestly appalling. As far as I know no actual reasons have been given for the cap. I have been playing for about 2 years now and have played as a criminal for 80-85% of my time here and as a LSPD member for the other 10% and a mechanic for 5%. The rules have never been something that was felt fair to us as crims as where it seems to cater to other factions. For about the past year now I have to rethink my decisions 5 times before I even make them due to the fact that the rules seem to be getting tighter and tighter with a lack of definition. It honestly feels like they are trying to push existing criminals off the server which confuses me. We have worked countless ours building our factions and for it all to slowly dwindle away due to OOC restrictions just seems horrific. It feels like whenever we ask for more things to do we get the answer "Make your own RP" when most factions don't have too. It doesn't make much sense that the RP we partake in is being taken away and nothing is being given to supplement that.

[Pistol Pete]

+1. Pete is spinning in his grave learning about these changes. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Pistol Pete

[Zion Willard]

I really fail to see what the newly imposed member cap is set to improve.  The only people directly affected by this change are the three longstanding criminal factions that have maintained high RP standards throughout their natural IC growth and progression. Not to mention the fact that both Traids and Zetas each have much more stringent IC/OOC requirements for a potential member to meet than each Legal faction. This change is only one of many which have detrimentally impacted criminal RP over the last couple of months, and if this status quo is continued you'll only see more people leave, as most long standing members will be too demotivated to play. Honestly, the most frustrating part of this all is a consistent lack of requests (and commonly ignored when requested) for input from people who have the most knowledge about what impact a change would have.

[HighTV]

I could not disagree more this post more.

Your main three points explaining the issues with 'The Ruined State of Criminal RP' are

• New robbery and crime limitations 
• Faction Management 
• Criminal Faction Member Cap 

I think the new robbery rules made more Meaningful crimes by eliminating many of the petty meaningless crimes. It was at the point where gunshots next to the bank didn't get any attention, because it was nonstop and people were desensitized. Now crimes carry more 'impact' socially when done because they are not happening constantly. Its much more relatable to real life.

Personally I confused as to why you would even list the faction management team who spends a ton of time out of their days helping us and the community. Official factions need regulation and proposing that their regulation is an issue... is an issue...

The new Criminal Faction Member Cap will hopefully spread out some of the veteran RPers and allow for more official factions than we currently have. It will also give smaller criminal organizations a chance against the will of a 120 man alliance with script support.  

In MY opinion the two of the largest issues with the state of Criminal RP is:

Lack of potential crimes low level criminals can do to interact with police/criminals to initiate shootouts (99% of the people here just miss shooting)
Lack of detective RP for high level criminals to interact with. (There isn't much interaction/interrogation most the time its cut/dry.)

Edited May 28, 2020 by HighTV

[Shaw Wu]

Having been a part of the server since 2017, i have felt less and less motivated to play over the past few months, than any other time in my stay here. Like he said in the post, it feels like we are being pushed out of the server. Enough of this "Think twice" bs... 

Turfs were great... they got yoinked. I remember countless days in Vikings or Irish where we were tasked with patrolling the turfs, and every once in a while, we'd get into a massive shootout, not even with the cops, but with other gangs, over control of the turfs. Limited supply on the laptops... These newish OOC rules limiting what we can and cant do, who we can rob and who we cant.... Everyone running to a "NCZ" which apparently is every major highway and "Populated Zone" now... Sorry, but that right there is a bunch of crap. Everytime we get into a chase, people hop on the highway and they are instantly protected...because if we rob them, boom...reported.

 

Not to mention the fact that it seems almost every robbery now that we do get to do, is met with Combat Loggers or people claiming their shit is broken and they need to relog, only to never see them again because they hide behind "Game's broke". If there ever is a time to put this server on the back-burner, it's now.

[mexicanwave]

9 minutes ago, HighTV said:

I could not disagree more this post more.

Your main three points explaining the issues with 'The Ruined State of Criminal RP' are

• New robbery and crime limitations 
• Faction Management 
• Criminal Faction Member Cap 

I think the new robbery rules made more Meaningful crimes by eliminating many of the petty meaningless crimes. It was at the point where gunshots next to the bank didn't get any attention, because it was nonstop and people were desensitized. Now crimes carry more 'impact' socially when done because they are not happening constantly. Its much more relatable to real life.

Personally I confused as to why you would even list the faction management team who spends a ton of time out of their days helping us and the community. Official factions need regulation and proposing that their regulation is an issue... is an issue...

The new 'Criminal Faction Member Cap' will hopefully spread out some of the veteran RPers and allow for more official factions than we currently have. It will also give smaller criminal organizations a chance against the will of a 120 man alliance with script support.

You could spread out veteran RPers by creating a gang good enough for veteran RPers to want to join.... You should try that sometime.

[MrUntouchable215]

6 minutes ago, HighTV said:

I could not disagree more this post more.

Your main three points explaining the issues with 'The Ruined State of Criminal RP' are

• New robbery and crime limitations 
• Faction Management 
• Criminal Faction Member Cap 

I think the new robbery rules made more Meaningful crimes by eliminating many of the petty meaningless crimes. It was at the point where gunshots next to the bank didn't get any attention, because it was nonstop and people were desensitized. Now crimes carry more 'impact' socially when done because they are not happening constantly. Its much more relatable to real life.

Personally I confused as to why you would even list the faction management team who spends a ton of time out of their days helping us and the community. Official factions need regulation and proposing that their regulation is an issue... is an issue...

The new 'Criminal Faction Member Cap' will hopefully spread out some of the veteran RPers and allow for more official factions than we currently have. It will also give smaller criminal organizations a chance against the will of a 120 man alliance with script support.

Are you joking honestly? If you think this cap will help smaller organizations, you're clearly not thinking correctly. If anything, this will harm them as now they have entirely no chance of reaching that point. You cant even fill in the void with more man power, you're literally going to get stomped out even worse now. You're going to have 40 members of spread out time zones vs an alliance of 120+ people still. This didn't change the outcome of smaller factions at all, if anything it made it worse on them, not better. Our recruitment is closed, but we don't have to remove anyone. So we can keep our 60, while you're stuck at 40. 

It makes ZERO sense to reduce our cap and forcefully close our recruitment.

[Goaldan]

Quote

Personally I confused as to why you would even list the faction management team who spends a ton of time out of their days helping us and the community. Official factions need regulation and proposing that their regulation is an issue... is an issue...
 

The faction management team is extremely helpful, don't get me wrong. The main point that he was trying to make is that faction leaders should be involved in major rule changes such as the faction capacity changes. Am I wrong?

Quote

The new 'Criminal Faction Member Cap' will hopefully spread out some of the veteran RPers and allow for more official factions than we currently have. It will also give smaller criminal organizations a chance against the will of a 120 man alliance with script support.

•  

No matter what, those veteran RPers will always want to go to the top faction. Let's say Triads and Zetas disappeared, all of those same players would just create another alliance and then you'll have the same problems repeated. No matter what there will always be a top faction or two. Adding a cap will just restrict RP both internally and externally. 

[Zion Willard]

18 minutes ago, HighTV said:

The new 'Criminal Faction Member Cap' will hopefully spread out some of the veteran RPers and allow for more official factions than we currently have. It will also give smaller criminal organizations a chance against the will of a 120 man alliance with script support.

The fact of the matter is that Rooks had multiple paths they could have gone down, and the reasons they no longer exist are due to your leadership choices. The council has undergone drastic changes over the last two years, and gangs that were once the top of the totem pole are now gone. Smaller gangs always have and will continue to have a chance against "the council" in whatever form it is in at the time, they only need to be smart in order to do so. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Zion Willard

[Msato]

Anyway before this gets out of hand, let's get back the focus of the state on criminal rp please. 

[nikoh]

Triads were an 8 person org when I joined, we were literally at the bottom and we made it all the way to the cap with solid members that we could be proud to call Triads.

 

Now you're telling me that we have to cut our forces by a 3rd? 

 

This OOC limitation shit is cringe

[HighTV]

3 minutes ago, Goaldan said:

The faction management team is extremely helpful, don't get me wrong. The main point that he was trying to make is that faction leaders should be involved in major rule changes such as the faction capacity changes. Am I wrong?

No matter what, those veteran RPers will always want to go to the top faction. Let's say Triads and Zetas disappeared, all of those same players would just create another alliance and then you'll have the same problems repeated. No matter what there will always be a top faction or two. Adding a cap will just restrict RP both internally and externally. 

No, I don't think faction leaders should partake in choices they are inherently biased in. Obviously ask for our opinions though, but ultimately I should not be the deciding factor of something that effects the Rooks organization ICly.

And I agree, people will always want to join the top factions. I think the solution they are proposing is designed to create more 'top factions' than 2 or 3. Im not sure how the transitional phase will be when others are limited to 40 and everyone above 40 attempts to maintain members for long as possible, but were going to find out it seems lol.

[WindEZ]

The solution is to calm down all the babies that cry oocly cause they ask for the smoke but then they cant take it .

The solution is to try from an ooc point of view to put as down for others to rise ? 
This is a joke hoenstly this is the last drop that killed crime after the rules and the pistols gg 

Good lock to PD/SD to engage in RP with the actual criminals 

 

#For the haters i had so much things to say about this topic but i already did few months ago in a topic for about a week , nothing changed so cba

Edited May 28, 2020 by WindEZ

[Goaldan]

Just now, HighTV said:

No, I don't think faction leaders should partake in choices they are inherently biased in. Obviously ask for our opinions though, but ultimately I should not be the deciding factor of something that effects the Rooks organization ICly.

And I agree, people will always want to join the top factions. I think the solution they are proposing is designed to create more 'top factions' than 2 or 3. Im not sure how the transitional phase will be when others are limited to 40 and everyone above 40 attempts to maintain members for long as possible, but were going to find out it seems lol.

Yes, but at the same time. Faction leaders can give input on how limitations will impact for one their faction, and for two the server as a whole. As for the limitations being set to 40 does nothing except hurt the smaller factions. I know for a fact that we aren't going to be kicking twenty people just to recruit more people. It genuinely makes no sense. This limitation does nothing except hurt incoming Official factions. 

[MrUntouchable215]

6 minutes ago, HighTV said:

No, I don't think faction leaders should partake in choices they are inherently biased in. Obviously ask for our opinions though, but ultimately I should not be the deciding factor of something that effects the Rooks organization ICly.

And I agree, people will always want to join the top factions. I think the solution they are proposing is designed to create more 'top factions' than 2 or 3. Im not sure how the transitional phase will be when others are limited to 40 and everyone above 40 attempts to maintain members for long as possible, but were going to find out it seems lol.

That's not a "we're going to find out" situation. Let's keep it real. If war happens, people who are capped at 40 while we're sitting at 60 are fucked. Not only that, this does not speak for the other gangs who are with us regardless. All this does is limit newer factions capabilities. This is is cutting 20 people and closing recruitment completely otherwise. If you want to get a snitch into Zetas, GL with that. We cant recruit anyway.

Edited May 28, 2020 by MrUntouchable215