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Flaws of The Legal System and other details

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The legal system that we have now makes no sense. Let's start from the beggining. I know that not many people especially the ones who are staff will give two craps about this, but i'm really mad about how nobody has talked or mentioned it before. All I see being done with the legal is system is just the developers forcing updates that we dont want down our throat, making decisions without letting the players vote. Like for example when the poker table was added to the prison along with the mine, the "being afk at jail" was removed without people having a chance to take a vote on it and decide if it's a good idea or not, because now when the max sentence limit is non existant and players can't even stay afk in the prison for a long time, it makes no sense. In my opinion instead of adding features to the server that are useless and hated by the majority they should start working on the new legal system which is called the Judicial system, where people can actually fight their cases with attorneys and have their sentences reduced or at best removed, because now... If a cop thinks you've commited a crime you're automatically guilty without having the chance to prove your innocence in a court of law, atleast change the Miranda Rights that are being told to you when you're getting arrested because at the moment it just sounds like a bunch of fairytales being told, since you don't have the right to an attorney in this server and you can't do nothing about it, the Miranda Rights make no sense whatsover, they are basically there just for show. Now lets talk about reducing the sentences for prisoners, the only way to reduce your sentences is to literally go grind at the mine for 10 minutes and get 10 seconds of your sentences, how is that balanced? Atleast boost the ores value so it would be actually worth going to the mine and mining or remove it and have higherups talk to prisoners and monitor them and decide if they have  been good or bad in prison and reduce their sentence based on that, also you guys added the poker table but it's not even made right for the prison, you basically just copied the design and the buy-in amount from tequilala to the prison without thinking about how hard it is to get the 1500 stamps to play with. Also a lot of cops break the metagaming rule all the time while adding charges for example: this incident happened to me recently, I was driving in a stolen car with a mask on, the officer (Mikael Cowell),  that was chasing me never came close enough to identify me and the car was not even mine, he literally placed two charges on me for felony evasion and Grand theft auto eventhough he didn't see my face because of the mask and looking at the charges I was not driving my car, so how in the world would he know that it was me? Metagaming, unfortunately I don't have any proof unless the officer (Mikael Cowell) has it. Don't get mad at me, i'm just trying to make this server stay afloat so it doesn't die on us again, because this server is really fun to play on, but please, staff, you need to listen to your players and post petitions on your discord before implementing them in to the game.

TLDR;
1. The Miranda Rights are useless, because they make no sense, because there is no Judicial system.
2. Prison is really unbalanced and should be redone completely.(removing or fixing the poker table, adding "afk in prison" back and buffing or removing the mine and replacing it with a higher ranked DOC who you can talk to and reduce your sentence for good behaviour.
3. Police are metagaming and everyone is just ignoring it because they do it without there being possible to gather proof of their rule breaking.
4. Developers and staff making decisions without posting a poll where people can vote for or against the features that they want to implement.
5. We need a Judicial system A.S.A.P, because this is getting out of hand really quickly.
P.S. 
1. Some of the rules should be changed also, like the refunding rules. Why is there a limit of 25k+, I always lose pistols and radios and other valuables because of rule breakers, I report them they get kicked or go to jail or maybe banned, but I never get my stuff back that I bought with hard earned money. Losing stuff to bugs, glitches or rule breakers is the most frustrating thing imaginable, im surely not the only one.
Please staff notice this because i'm concerned that the server might start to lose its player count FAST.
If you have any questions feel free to comment and i'll try my best to answer them for you. English is my 2nd language so if you don't understand what I mean by some of the sentences just comment and i'll try to explain.

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I am 100% agreeing with him. The MetaGaming thing and also the Judicial system is a good idea ! When I got arrested by police I have no chance to complain about it either if I did not do anything. For the prison part I can’t judge but I guess that if there is a 3hours or + sentence it will be long to finish it cause of the antiafk thing in prison. We got kicked each like 15-20 min...

 

Staff you really should listen to his advices !! 

 

Again : thanks Staff members for the good server you guys made !

 

Alex Pilot

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1. You are just not paying attention to them. The rights are "You have the right to have a government-appointed attorney during any legal questioning", however in the context of the server, most of the times, the cop will have witnessed you commit the crime. He is not legally questioning you, therefore you do not get an attorney. It's not useless, and it's there for when you actually do get questioned.

2. I'm in favor of having high ranking DOC be able to reduce sentence by about 10% for good behavior, but afking in prison should never be a thing again.

3. They are not, and when they do, they get punished severely, both by staff and internally. A cop was not so long ago punished because he didn't hold N when speaking in Teamspeak.

4. That is good. It is their server and they are developers, listening to the community about everything would result in issues.

5. A judicial system is not practical with the current sentencing guidelines. Felony evading, by far the most common crime is 60 minutes of prison. How do you justify getting together a jury, judge, lawyers and everything else over an hour sentence? If implemented, you would need to increase all sentences by at least 100%, and if the person loses, they would further get a sentence increase. It's not worth the time investment otherwise, and everyone would appeal just for the fake of being difficult.

PS. There is a minimum cap of 25k because it is a very high population server, and having the very few administrators that can spawn weapons spend time to go through requests for a single firearm is not feasible. In the grand scheme of things, even 25,000 is pretty low. Most people drive at least an elegy retro, which is ten times that in value. Most people also exaggerate how many times they actually lose things to a rule breaker. In short, it's not worth the time, and if it's under 25k, it's not a big impact on you.

PS2. The server has been around for a long time, and will be around for a long time. It will not lose its player count FAST because people can not refund a gun, or because they don't get a lawyer when they're not supposed to.

 

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+1 Easily, although I doubt this will actually be looked at practically. Majority of the people who will disagree with this suggestion will be players who work for PD, etc and these are the players that are listened to, from my experience. Crims have gotten nerfed pretty hard these recent updates and I don't think it'll stop here. The amount of people mass vdming and getting banned on purpose are increasing as well and when I logged out today, there was 44 people when there's usually 90-100. I'm aware that PD has to have advantages, and I think they should as well. 100% they should out class criminals but not this way. Any support+ that actively play crims, I would honestly like to see your input one of these days.

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6 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

1. You are just not paying attention to them. The rights are "You have the right to have a government-appointed attorney during any legal questioning", however in the context of the server, most of the times, the cop will have witnessed you commit the crime. He is not legally questioning you, therefore you do not get an attorney. It's not useless, and it's there for when you actually do get questioned.

But they are useless, in real life you always get a lawyer for every charge, even if its petty.
 

6 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

2. I'm in favor of having high ranking DOC be able to reduce sentence by about 10% for good behavior, but afking in prison should never be a thing again.

I'm in favour of this, but would prefer it to be up to 25%, UP TO, meaning they can choose, so people who are high ranking in DOC can choose based on behavior and the amount of time the person has to serve. For example someone serving 12 hours, might be a model inmate for 9 hours, DOC command can choose to release them, this would encourage a lot less negative behavior in DOC. Where as someone who only serves 1 hour, may only need 10%. I see a cap of 25% being more beneficial. Also why are you against AFK'ing in prison? There is no RP there. People just run around punching each other and yell at you. When you do want RP DOC guards will not interact with you at all. Why can't we AFK when 90% of the time, we do, and we just die over and over again due to bugs.

 

6 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

3. They are not, and when they do, they get punished severely, both by staff and internally. A cop was not so long ago punished because he didn't hold N when speaking in Teamspeak.

You're right about this. Sometimes some cops might MG, but they aren't around for too long.
 

 

6 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

5. A judicial system is not practical with the current sentencing guidelines. Felony evading, by far the most common crime is 60 minutes of prison. How do you justify getting together a jury, judge, lawyers and everything else over an hour sentence? If implemented, you would need to increase all sentences by at least 100%, and if the person loses, they would further get a sentence increase. It's not worth the time investment otherwise, and everyone would appeal just for the fake of being difficult.

A judicial system is very practical. Why would we need to increase timers on crimes? Do you not want to RP? I get not doing a judge and jury for everyone, but someone who is getting a large sentence should be a trial thing. It adds a better quality of life and could make the server better. To me, your perspective is, "I'm a cop, so this won't affect me ever so I don't want this added, BUT if they do, lets increase the sentences for people who lose." I don't think that should be the attitude, but I could be wrong. Just seems you want to punish criminals more. 
 

Edited by thiggins19
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19 minutes ago, thiggins19 said:

But they are useless, in real life you always get a lawyer for every charge, even if its petty.
 

In real life you don't get arrested 10 times in a day. Either we increase prison sentences to where people won't even be able to think about crime since that will almost mean life sentence or we leave it as it is. Understand that in one hour we arrest like 10 people, you're saying that every hour we should have jury and so on?

Also PD won't arrest you without proof, most of the people don't understand what detaining someone is different from being arrested. If we get enough proof of you committing a crime why do we need a jury in the first place? 
The only way I see a judicial system to work, alright we catch you and you're arrested in the cell to wait for trial. It could be once a day or so on, if you do not come on that trial you wait for the next day while you're being arrested in the cell until trial takes place and you're sent to jail or charges dropped, but if you get sent to jail your sentence starts from then.

All in all, don't forget that this isn't streamer server where people makes money out of this, this isn't a job for us we have real life, work, kids and responsibilities to do therefore I don't see a way to make judicial system take place in the server.

Edited by Balastas
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1 hour ago, Balastas said:

In real life you don't get arrested 10 times in a day. Either we increase prison sentences to where people won't even be able to think about crime since that will almost mean life sentence or we leave it as it is. Understand that in one hour we arrest like 10 people, you're saying that every hour we should have jury and so on?

Also PD won't arrest you without proof, most of the people don't understand what detaining someone is different from being arrested. If we get enough proof of you committing a crime why do we need a jury in the first place? 
The only way I see a judicial system to work, alright we catch you and you're arrested in the cell to wait for trial. It could be once a day or so on, if you do not come on that trial you wait for the next day while you're being arrested in the cell until trial takes place and you're sent to jail or charges dropped, but if you get sent to jail your sentence starts from then.

All in all, don't forget that this isn't streamer server where people makes money out of this, this isn't a job for us we have real life, work, kids and responsibilities to do therefore I don't see a way to make judicial system take place in the server.

In the server it is useless. If you actually read my post you would see I already countered your first question and said we reserve it to be people who go to jail for long sentences like 12+hrs. I also stated didn't have to be a jury, could just be a judge. Also, PD won't arrest you without proof? I've seen numerous people get metagamed charges. Judicial would be something fun and enjoyable for the server. Like I said, it doesn't need to be for everyone. I also never once forgot the server isn't full of streamers who make money playing videogames. But if you want to go that route, why are you okay with throwing someone in prison for 19 hours when they can only play 1-3 hrs a day. You think it's fun for them? Two sides to every coin you want to flip. Judicial atleast gives those people RP instead of being forced to AFK in prison for 19 IRL hours.

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To my knowledge, a judicial system is something that is being looked at, however, as stated by a few posters, it is a difficult system to implement. While it would be awesome to have a functioning judicial system, this doesn't come without massive problems that can arise, one of the biggest of them all is in regards to player availability. That being said, I would love to see a proper court system for high profile/high sentence crimes but not for small petty things as that would be almost impossible with how many people are apprehended every day throughout all timezones.

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Let's look at a couple days of criminal activity:

Day 1: You're broke, hungry, can't afford a car... You manage to find a car with a full tank of gas, so you steal it. (GTA 45 minutes) You head over to the foundry hoping to make a quick 8000-10000 robbing a miner that just dropped off a bunch of ores. You hold him up by holding a knife to his back telling him you'll carve him up if he doesn't comply. Since you got the drop on him you also manage to steal his pistol. (Armed robbery 60 minutes) Oops, you weren't wearing a mask and he knew you, and reported you to the police. Now you have 10 grand. You get some food and drink and a gps, maybe even a map then head to sleep. 

 

Day 2: You check your bank and things are looking grim. Time to sell some drugs! You managed to hide the car from yesterday and jump inside. You head to the shop and buy a mask, put it on and head up to your local drug lab. You get to the drug lab and some dude is in there by himself, wearing a wife beater and you see he doesn't have a gun. You pull up and buddy gets spooked, jumps on his bike and takes off. You start making drugs and get a decent haul. (Manufacturing Narcotics 60 minutes) Suddenly you hear cars approaching. Thinking it's going to be a local gang you decide you're going to run for it so you aren't gunned down. As you jump in your car you spot the cops coming into the compound. You manage to juke them and now you're running to save your ass. (Felony evading 60 minutes) You lead them on a chase that passes through 2 speed camera zones and you get 2 reckless operation charges (20 minutes) and it looks like you're finally getting away. You decide you're going to ditch the car so they don't recognize it and start chasing you again. Little did you know, the helicopter has been watching you. You're 100 ft from your stolen ride and here comes the brigade. You decide, it's shootout time. You manage to down 1 cop and injure another. (Murder on a govt employee 135 minutes). You take off on foot leading them on a short pursuit (resisting arrest 25 minutes). You're finally taken into custody, still wearing your mask (10 minutes) and you've racked up 415 minutes, just shy of 7 hours. Is this a realistic scenario? Sure it could be. But if you do this, how can you come and complain about unfair prison times? Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. 

Edited by smutty
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3 hours ago, thiggins19 said:

A judicial system is very practical. Why would we need to increase timers on crimes? Do you not want to RP? I get not doing a judge and jury for everyone, but someone who is getting a large sentence should be a trial thing. It adds a better quality of life and could make the server better. To me, your perspective is, "I'm a cop, so this won't affect me ever so I don't want this added, BUT if they do, lets increase the sentences for people who lose." I don't think that should be the attitude, but I could be wrong. Just seems you want to punish criminals more. 
 

It's like you said. "but someone who is getting a large sentence should be a trial thing" exactly what a large sentence is could be up for debate. Most people do not get large sentences, it's only the really egregious ones that do.

If you just run from a traffic stop (which is a common chase/arrest reason), you would realistically receive an 80 minute sentence, if you also had an unlicensed gun on you, it's 110. I don't think that's particularly large, since it's still under what the old cap was. 

Would you have a trial involving all of the required people over a sentence less than 2 hours? I wouldn't, I don't believe it would be practical.

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24 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

It's like you said. "but someone who is getting a large sentence should be a trial thing" exactly what a large sentence is could be up for debate. Most people do not get large sentences, it's only the really egregious ones that do.

If you just run from a traffic stop (which is a common chase/arrest reason), you would realistically receive an 80 minute sentence, if you also had an unlicensed gun on you, it's 110. I don't think that's particularly large, since it's still under what the old cap was. 

Would you have a trial involving all of the required people over a sentence less than 2 hours? I wouldn't, I don't believe it would be practical.

If you would read all the replies. I agreed with you on your ending statement. In fact I even answered your rehtorical question. I stated people who are about to recieve 12hr+ sentence should be able to have a trial. 

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would the lawyers need OOC legal experiences? Would they need to be Bar'd in California? Or would any state do? What about from another country? 

What if the lawyer character is unable to play for a few days? What if the judge, defence and production cant be on together for 4 or 5 days? 

Does the player say in jail untill their court date and then if found guilty spend more time in prison? 

Is there Bail? 

Is there additional punishment for easting everyones time for obvious guilt?

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I think something as simple as a forum in the police section where arresting officers can post the video evidence of the offense would go a long way.  The evidence shouldn't just be the word of the officer, and the evidence also shouldn't be kept from the perpetrator. 

Perp:

Arresting officer:

Offense(s):

Link to body cam footage:

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19 minutes ago, cheatonus said:

I think something as simple as a forum in the police section where arresting officers can post the video evidence of the offense would go a long way.  The evidence shouldn't just be the word of the officer, and the evidence also shouldn't be kept from the perpetrator. 

Perp:

Arresting officer:

Offense(s):

Link to body cam footage:

You do realize that would not only create a massive amount of paperwork but also normal civilians don't have body cams yet crimes occur to them which they then report to police. As they don't have body cams to record ICly, no video can be posted. Even in the event that the citizen did have a body cam, you would effectively be requiring them to record, clip, and submit video evidence for every single crime they report to the police. No offense but that is a bit insane.

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No i'm expecting the police to have body cam footage and post it in their arrest report.  Part of being a police officer, in reality, is a lot of paperwork.  As a normal civilian in ECRP anytime I reported a crime to a cop I was expected to have evidence to back it up.  If I didn't have video evidence generally the cop would tell me there's nothing they could do. So, generally speaking, it's already required every civilian have video evidence to back them up when they report a crime. Happened to me directly several times at Bayview. 

Edited by cheatonus
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Police in game already have a ton of paperwork. The other night after I was done playing I did 90 minutes of paperwork outside of the game. Between writing a duty report, ADAM report, arrest reports and impound reports to release people's vehicles, plus an email to the cadet I had with me, and a copy to the commanding officer for his records. That doesn't even account for the SWAT officers, helicopter operators, high speed or heavy pursuit vehicles, traffic enforcement, investigators and Detective paperwork. 

 

I do not arrest people based off of a civilian's report alone. If he comes to me and says "that guy just robbed me for $8,864 and my heavy pistol" then I search the guy and find exactly that... Do I arrest him or let him go? Detain him and search him while I investigate? If the victim then says they have a video, great! I'll detain the suspect, review the evidence and make the arrest. 

 

If another cop says to me "that guy has an illegal gun" then I'm going to arrest that guy. A cop's word is higher value to me than a civilian's. 

 

The other day an RP situation happened where one person claimed that another hit their car intentionally and wouldn't take care of the damages. The "suspect" denied it so I RP'd looking for accident damage which he played out with me, luckily. 

 

At the end of the day if you're going to commit crimes and get caught, I don't think you should get to whine about if there is "evidence" or not. If you flee the drug lab and have a bunch of LSD on you when you're caught, you're getting a charge for manufacturing if you were seen actually manufacturing or not! 

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Getting caught red-handed is different then having an officer roll up to you and say "we had a report of Elegys racing in the area and you're under arrest."  But I think even if you catch someone red handed the burden of proof on you should be the same as everyone else.  Drop the clip in your arrest report.  That "a cops word" counts for more than a civilian's thing really irks me to be honest.  I understand why we RP it that way, but it still really irks me.  Any arrest should require physical evidence that would be admissible in court, even though we don't have courts.  Arresting someone shouldn't be taken lightly, especially with increased sentences and fines. 

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Quote

That "a cops word" counts for more than a civilian's thing really irks me to be honest.

You may have an issue with real life then because I can tell you it is 100% accurate. 

 

I haven't seen, personally a cop arrest anyone based on just the say so of a civilian. 

Edited by smutty
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6 minutes ago, cheatonus said:

 That "a cops word" counts for more than a civilian's thing really irks me to be honest.  I understand why we RP it that way, but it still really irks me. 

Well if any cop is caught lying about it they'd get the book thrown at them.

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