Identity Hiding

[Wizzidy]

Since the most recent addition of rule clarification and attempts at script forcing name changes into character killing with no functioning governmental system. This leaves a major flaw. Right now a single charge (even an invalid one) can be put on a person and ruin their character RP and their in game life permanently. Banning them from legal jobs, weapons licenses, etc... I have said it before and I have seen it when seeing people come into the prison. IA is not sufficient policing for the police, they are human and should not be given supreme power over IC and OOC without challenge. This leads me to my suggestion. 

In real life if you have an identity problem you can hide yourself on a surface level from the police by creating a new alias/persona. This is of course a criminal activity, but if you are already a felon and can't get your life on track having somebody create a fake ID and adopting a new alias is a small price to pay. Also I checked with my cousin at the local sheriff's office, the average officer/company would not have access to the investigatory means needed to do research on a persons previous names....  I propose we have a criminal job that allows them to make fake id's, steal identity, etc... in order to counter the ability for police to permanently cripple a character and face no judgement. This would not be easy or cheap, nor would it be full proof (high level investegators could use means to dig and through RP gain the information they need). It would also create a really interesting activity for criminals outside gun sales.

I am sure its obvious my feelings on police exerting so much OOC power... but I understand the server is big and some things need to be in place to make it work. I am just suggesting we have an alternative solution to getting yourself back on track that is not killing 700 hours of character development. Lets not make the argument that reporting to IA fixes this, it does not... it hasnt in many cases even clear cut ones, there should be an alternate solution.

[Philo]

I myself got a felony for "felony evasion" which was not stopping when cops asked, for a reason ofcourse, lets not talk about it. I filed the IA report about a month ago or so. Up until now no one ever replied to it. I sent a reply saying "Why is my IA still not looked at" Got no reply. So an IA report is totally ain't balancing the whole felony smack. 

Now, in my country sure you get a felony you can't do shit. Can't be in any government owned organization and shit like this. But there is a rehab for that. Depending what was your felony your rehab period is set. Lets say your felony was not stopping to cops. To rehab that you have to never commit a crime for more than a month or two. That way your felony drops. I'm pretty sure something like that would actually be of great potential.

Shit makes hella sense to be honest. I mean to get your character completely crippled for a reason like "felony evasion" which is basically driving your vehicle off when a cop pulled you over is shitsmack. Every felony should have rehab period accompanying it to be fair. "Ingame hours".. This should be fair enough for everyone. 

By ingame hours I mean for every felony you get to rehabilitate for a specific amount of ingame playtime. So lets say a felony of carrying an unlicensed gun you need to rehab for 50 hours ingame then you get your felony cleared due to getting back to being a straight forward citizen.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Philo

[Wizzidy]

7 minutes ago, Philo said:

I myself got a felony for "felony evasion" which was not stopping when cops asked, for a reason ofcourse, lets not talk about it. I filed the IA report about a month ago or so. Up until now no one ever replied to it. I sent a reply saying "Why is my IA still not looked at" Got no reply. So an IA report is totally ain't balancing the whole felony smack. 

Now, in my country sure you get a felony you can't do shit. Can't be in any government owned organization and shit like this. But there is a rehab for that. Depending what was your felony your rehab period is set. Lets say your felony was not stopping to cops. To rehab that you have to never commit a crime for more than a month or two. That way your felony drops. I'm pretty sure something like that would actually be of great potential.

Yea this is a really good suggestion, it should be a separate thing but I agree inmate rehab is important and we have none

[alexalex303]

There was a rule put in place because people easily escaped consequences of committing crimes and your solution is to create a job that will allow people to easily escape consequences of committing crimes. Do you not see the issue?

If you really need to be clean, you can character-kill and start over. However a hardened criminal shouldn't have the expectation to be clean or work government funded jobs. 

[Riderz]

1 hour ago, alexalex303 said:

There was a rule put in place because people easily escaped consequences of committing crimes and your solution is to create a job that will allow people to easily escape consequences of committing crimes. Do you not see the issue?

If you really need to be clean, you can character-kill and start over. However a hardened criminal shouldn't have the expectation to be clean or work government funded jobs. 

Issue Mention: This is a game and felony Evasion charge 1+ month ago should no prevent you from getting a job. This IS A GAME at the end of the day and how you develop your character from illegal to Legal should not be ceased by that. 

 

+1 On the Concept as many can adapt fake passports/surgery to alter their identity. 

[alexalex303]

2 minutes ago, Tezhl said:

Issue Mention: This is a game and felony Evasion charge 1+ month ago should no prevent you from getting a job. This IS A GAME at the end of the day and how you develop your character from illegal to Legal should not be ceased by that. 

 

+1 On the Concept as many can adapt fake passports/surgery to alter their identity. 

This is a game which attempts to simulate real life. Becoming a felon is not a small thing, and shouldn't be easily avoidable. Since this is a game, it's also very easy to kill off your character and start fresh. The issue lies with people wanting to have their cake and eat it too, you want to retain all of the information you got on your character, but none of the penalties. It's not how it's supposed to work.

[Philo]

 

1 minute ago, alexalex303 said:

This is a game which attempts to simulate real life. Becoming a felon is not a small thing, and shouldn't be easily avoidable. Since this is a game, it's also very easy to kill off your character and start fresh. The issue lies with people wanting to have their cake and eat it too, you want to retain all of the information you got on your character, but none of the penalties. It's not how it's supposed to work.

A city without crime is what you want isnt it?

[Wizzidy]

1 hour ago, alexalex303 said:

There was a rule put in place because people easily escaped consequences of committing crimes and your solution is to create a job that will allow people to easily escape consequences of committing crimes. Do you not see the issue?

If you really need to be clean, you can character-kill and start over. However a hardened criminal shouldn't have the expectation to be clean or work government funded jobs. 

This is a game, I should not need to lose hundreds of hours of character development over a charge that should not have been. Also I never said easily escaped the consequences, I believe I said the exact opposite "It would not be easy or cheap".... it should just be available... Criminal charges are becoming an OOC thing more and more and I am positing that it would be nice to have an alternative. If I have to pay a million and be clean for a month Ill do it, Ive already done it for 4 months.... but a player should not be ooc doomed to restarting their life in the server over 1 persons reckless application of charges...

Also in reference to real life I am giving real life solutions, IRL you can hide your identity to get a job etc, you can also get your record sealed expunged or something of that nature.... You however are attempting to place that criminal activity IRL is unavoidable and IRL people should just kill themselves if they want to change.... You see where my suggestion makes more sense?

Edited July 18, 2019 by Wizzidy

[isBrainDed]

Let me start this by saying this is a nice suggestion on the first sight, but there are few problems that I would like to point out.

13 hours ago, Wizzidy said:

Also I checked with my cousin at the local sheriff's office, the average officer/company would not have access to the investigatory means needed to do research on a persons previous names....

While average officers can't know someone's previous names, if you get a name change IRL, your criminal history moves over to your new name, so you can't escape your past.

 

Now to the actual suggestion.

The main issue here, that exhibits less IRL is that we don't have multiple levels of identification. I don't work in financing industry exactly, but I handle lots of bills and stuff between private entities and companies and vice versa. And while this is not exactly working in HR department, I still have lots of information on how to identify someone or track them down if we are looking for them for unpaid dues.

In my country, one being in EU, we have 3 ( 4 if you count health insurance stuff, but identifying people over that is illegal as that is higly sensitive information ) forms of identification.

1st one is your normal ID cards, that can be your standard personal ID card, or drivers licenses. This is used for basic level of identifications, such as when people ask you to show your ID at a store when buying liquor or when you are paying with credit card. This check is done at a face value, meaning if all information looks legit and the ID is done well, you would pass this stage.

2nd one is identifying numbers on your ID card at face value. Both on my drivers ( 3 on drivers ) and personal ID card ( 4 here ), there are unique numbers which upon inspection and some common sense on how those numbers work, all of the unique numbers are connected each other and an experienced person can see if those match ( For example, we use a number which is generated from when you were born, what area and which child you were born on that day, its not the most unique thing, but there can be some discrepancy in it, which most of the people don't know. In this case its because of the rolling over number, ( to display a year they used 3 digits instead of 4, so if you were born in 1990 you would have 990 on the card) there has been an change to x position of a number, which is used as a flag to tell if the person has been born before or after 2000 ) 2 of these numbers, especially on personal ID, are written in a special way, like it would be on a bank note for example. Officers and people at government buildings, usually look for this signs, but if you had a very good fake ID, you could still pass this.

2nd one is also identifying numbers on your ID card by running them in a system. In my country, we have a database called "Central Population Database", this database contains pictures, information about you  ( address, name, number ( in some cases ),other IDs, certain information about your family members, and most importantly, picture ). This is used in a traffic stop for example, when they run you and your vehicle information, checking if the information matches and if you need to be identified because you committed a crime.

 

--- This was all about interacting with PD and general public, such as general stores and other business entities that require you to identify yourself. ---

--- Now we are going in more job interactions, which I believe is the biggest point of this suggestion, allowing people to apply for jobs they can't anymore because of their crimes ---

 

 3rd form of identifying people. Each person is assigned their "tax" number, in a sense same way as Social Security Number  ( but only used for tax purposes and not general identification ), at their birth. Once they turn 18, I believe that number is changed and you have to request it again.

This tax number is used to run a financial background checks people, but at the same time it contains some parts of their employment history. While you may fake an ID, combined with the identification numbers on your ID card + tax number, its pretty much impossible for someone with fake ID to get pass this, as there would be a miss-match with the tax number. The only way this would be possible, if you had complete background information on the person you are trying to identify fraud as, this means employment history, address history and you would also have to use their name on the fake ID, so if the ID is ever ran in the Central Population Database, which can be done by private entities with your permission, you would get busted.

 

--- With this out of the way, I can now explain the issues/my opinion ---

 

Eclipse has nothing more than /showlicense to identify people, PD has some database when it comes to arrest reports, but because easily available surgery ( this should not change, as people make mistakes and even I have realized 1 month later after changing my character, that I don't like an aspect of it because I haven't seen it from that angle before due to limitations of the character creator ) and limitations of the game, even when we take mugshots, they all look almost the same in the end. If you made a fake ID, there would either have to be more identifiers, or there would have to be a command which could be used to identify if the ID is fake ( shitty option imo ).

 

If there are multiple identifiers, you could have multiple levels of fake ID and identities, one that is just fake ID to pass the age check at a bar, another where they use someones stolen identity to build your fake identity on. This comes at a issue though, while you can just steal someones ID card, people don't usually carry their tax numbers on them, especially in my country. ( This gives me a good business idea though )

 

Not everyone could just make these fake ID's, at least not the higher level ones, not even official factions. This should be a process where people have to apply to become suppliers of stolen identities, with the people applying showing their roleplay history,  making sure its up to the higher RP standard and making sure that their backstory makes sense when applying for this. And every high level stolen identity, because it will impact people a lot, especially the ones that suffer from their identify stolen, should have some roleplay oversight by the staff team.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by BrainDed

[Wizzidy]

@BrainDed So I was talking to a buddy of mine about this and he agreed with you on a lot of points (he works on clearance checks for contractors). It would be difficult, it would require a lot of money and careful execution to happen IRL but again, it can happen.

I also like the idea of certain "tests" to make sure a person is really attempting to change, maybe even investigating them during the process (give the FIB something to do) I dont know exactly how it would be executed. I generally think the point is, a character that gets a criminal charge should not be locked as a criminal for life OOC. This is not Diablo Hardcore Mode... this is eclipse RP, the details and backstory and interactions we have with people are real and represent a large investment in time and an emotional attachment for many.

I don't think this is a small thing, I do believe it should be a thing that is available... people change and the current stance of "Just CK and throw out 1000 hours of character development because we dont have a working government" is adequate.

Thanks for your contribution, if they consider something like this that information will be important

[Brandon Powers]

1+ It would be a good idea to have some sort of fake ID system.

[Victor Einhart]

I'd like to see some kind of fake ID system.  I think the way things are is functional, but there should be a way to obscure your identity in some manner beyond a /me or /do and then having in argument in ooc chat demanding screenshots.

[Bala]

I see fake IDs like masks, they probably should be used sporadic but they aren't. They are just an excuse for criminals to do whatever with little to no impunity.

I hear this "ITS A GAME" argument so much on these forums but what people seem to miss is that THIS game is to try and simulate real life situations in a video game environment.
You want to do whatever with no consequences? Go to GTA Online.

Felony Evasion isn't just failure to stop, it's actively trying to escape law enforcement's attempts to apprehend you. It's a serious crime so no, you probably won't get a job at the Cab Company when you get out of prison.

Don't want Felony Evasion? Don't use a vehicle to evade Police when we're trying to arrest you. It's a choice you make, not us.

 

 

 

[Wizzidy]

1 hour ago, GOAT said:

I see fake IDs like masks, they probably should be used sporadic but they aren't. They are just an excuse for criminals to do whatever with little to no impunity.

I hear this "ITS A GAME" argument so much on these forums but what people seem to miss is that THIS game is to try and simulate real life situations in a video game environment.
You want to do whatever with no consequences? Go to GTA Online.

Felony Evasion isn't just failure to stop, it's actively trying to escape law enforcement's attempts to apprehend you. It's a serious crime so no, you probably won't get a job at the Cab Company when you get out of prison.

Don't want Felony Evasion? Don't use a vehicle to evade Police when we're trying to arrest you. It's a choice you make, not us.

 

 

 

Except I could compile a 30 minute video of police giving charges egregiously and with no tact. However fake identity system is not like masks because it wont cost 1000 and wont take 30 seconds to buy, so again another fallacy. The suggestion is to give people a fairly expensive lengthy process to change their criminal identity to legal for good if it is not extreme. Something like 150k and 7 days to come up with an identity, in which period a single charge of any kind will spook the identity creator and you will just lose your money. So lets stop acting like I am coming up with an "easy out" I am talking about a way for us to solve a problem that does exist. People are not NPCs for the police, there was a woman who was given 4 charges that didnt belong to her by an officer I wont name here when I was working at the prison and she was literally crying when she came to the prison because nobody believed her even though the CCTV and several witnesses placed her at a club for the entire day dancing when these charges were placed. IA denied her claim because "circumstantial proof" so now her character is literally fucked because of a human error. Sorry police are not perfect, I am offering an RP IN GAME solution to the smaller errors that happen. Nobody is going to hide criminal actions as a career criminal because hundreds of thousands per charge isnt going to be worth of it for them.

[alexalex303]

1 hour ago, Wizzidy said:

Except I could compile a 30 minute video of police giving charges egregiously and with no tact. However fake identity system is not like masks because it wont cost 1000 and wont take 30 seconds to buy, so again another fallacy. The suggestion is to give people a fairly expensive lengthy process to change their criminal identity to legal for good if it is not extreme. Something like 150k and 7 days to come up with an identity, in which period a single charge of any kind will spook the identity creator and you will just lose your money. So lets stop acting like I am coming up with an "easy out" I am talking about a way for us to solve a problem that does exist. People are not NPCs for the police, there was a woman who was given 4 charges that didnt belong to her by an officer I wont name here when I was working at the prison and she was literally crying when she came to the prison because nobody believed her even though the CCTV and several witnesses placed her at a club for the entire day dancing when these charges were placed. IA denied her claim because "circumstantial proof" so now her character is literally fucked because of a human error. Sorry police are not perfect, I am offering an RP IN GAME solution to the smaller errors that happen. Nobody is going to hide criminal actions as a career criminal because hundreds of thousands per charge isnt going to be worth of it for them.

The idea behind masks was to allow people to commit crimes with a certain degree of anonymity. What did people do with them? Literally stay at bank 50 people masked up, just talking. Your system will get abused and overused. Unless it's literally millions, and getting arrested will destroy the fake identity, it will be overused. 

[Wizzidy]

1 hour ago, alexalex303 said:

The idea behind masks was to allow people to commit crimes with a certain degree of anonymity. What did people do with them? Literally stay at bank 50 people masked up, just talking. Your system will get abused and overused. Unless it's literally millions, and getting arrested will destroy the fake identity, it will be overused. 

Literally millions? it takes about 20 hours of work for 200k on average... literally millions would be bonkers... at 200k it is quite adequate, and like I said, getting arrested would break the identity because police could deep dive and big time criminals... but it would allow a person who has a single charge from 10 years ago to get a gun license and go hunting, or join the legal side of work. The fact is the current take on criminal records is cops, singular human beings, place charges that affect a persons entire playtime negatively, and do so indiscriminately (mostly as a product of too much crime) This system is not for career criminals to continuously hide their record, This is a "second chance" system to allow people with one or two charges to get back into legal life without giving up all the personal relationships theyve built over the last however many hours

[Bala]

8 hours ago, Wizzidy said:

Except I could compile a 30 minute video of police giving charges egregiously and with no tact. 

I could give you a 3 hour video of them getting it right every time.

[Wizzidy]

14 hours ago, GOAT said:

I could give you a 3 hour video of them getting it right every time.

Nobody is worried about them getting it right, of course they get it right a lot, they should always get it right, however they do not, and that is the very human very real and very acceptable eventuality I am suggesting this system in place of.

[thiggins19]

The server needs a way to reform criminals. Give them a second chance on the server. My criminal, Brewer Atkinson went 3-4 months without being arrested and I still couldn't get a job on him. If the server wishes for more people to transition to civilian life, there has to be a way to "reform" a character without killing them. You put so much hard work into building your character and their reputation, it only makes sense none of us want to CK. It'd make more sense of the server had a way to reform criminals so they could get guns license and a regular job, but if they get caught doing anything illegal again then that's their last chance 

Tldr: Tried to make my crim a civilian and get a decent job, but can't so I'm back to shooting cops and civilians.

[Pegasus_]

+1