Clank Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) With the removal of max sentences, the server more than ever now needs an ACTUAL ACTIVE GOVERNMENT BRANCH. What also needs to happen is the Government faction expanded into a JUDICIAL BRANCH as well. Judicial and the government is needed to keep the police in check, the police is needed to keep the people in check and the people are needed to keep the government in check. Its a system of checks and balances. When someone gets detained and BEFORE they are processed into jail, they would be read their rights. Once their rights are read to them they may request a trial, the officer then needs to radio to judicial and request a judge to set up a court room for trial. Once this happens, the officer would drive the suspect to the court case, they would present the case and the suspect can either get a private lawyer or a government appointed lawyer. The judge would then preside the case and rule without bias as they have sworn an oath. This would prevent the police and the sheriffs from being judge, jury and executioners as they currently are. This would help DOC with more RP as the courthouse can hold inmates for transports and this would prevent corruption even more. How the government expansion would work is: There is a PEOPLE ELECTED head AKA, the mayor, the president, the governor (whatever you want to call it in game) The head of state THEN ELECTS a head of judicial The head of judicial hires his judges AND government appointed lawyers (for people that cannot afford one as the miranda rights say) In order to become a judge, or a lawyer you must get a BAR LICENSE and get approved to be one by passing a test (like a weapons license on gov forums) that is managed by the head of state This can help bring equality and fairness due to the people electing their head of state. The government/judicial keeping police in check and the people keeping the government in check because they can always vote to impeach. I can go into further detail if anyone has any questions I can reply to the best of my abilities, im currently studying law on my 3rd year in law school so im not the most well versed but my father is a lawyer and I know my fair share of how everything works in a court setting and government setting! Any questions ill reply whenever I can : ) Edited July 2, 2019 by Clank 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EazyBrown Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MReefer Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) This would need to be consistently operated 24/7 in order for it to effectively work the way you are suggesting. Say you get arrested and nobody from the court system is around? With the amount of arrests that happen each hour, the man power to cover the courts with all the arrests and effectively cover the activity issues would be huge. A) The only way a court system would work is if they are given specfic dates and times that they have to attend court (which due to peoples daily real lives, that's impossible to setup). B) The harder crimes would mean you had remain in police custody until a judge is available and you get your time in court. Which again, just isn't practical. Edited July 2, 2019 by MReefer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexalex303 Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 I'd be in favor on two conditions 1. The Judges are not allowed to have any alternate characters in criminal factions to avoid any conflicts of interest. 2. If there is no Judge available, the person will have a choice between accepting the charges or waiting in prison until a judge is available. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reckless311 Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 39 minutes ago, alexalex303 said: I'd be in favor on two conditions 1. The Judges are not allowed to have any alternate characters in criminal factions to avoid any conflicts of interest. 2. If there is no Judge available, the person will have a choice between accepting the charges or waiting in prison until a judge is available. What about a lawyer plea bargaining on their behalf? They'd at least get some kind of representation that way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clank Posted July 2, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 4 hours ago, alexalex303 said: I'd be in favor on two conditions 1. The Judges are not allowed to have any alternate characters in criminal factions to avoid any conflicts of interest. 2. If there is no Judge available, the person will have a choice between accepting the charges or waiting in prison until a judge is available. 4 hours ago, MReefer said: This would need to be consistently operated 24/7 in order for it to effectively work the way you are suggesting. Say you get arrested and nobody from the court system is around? With the amount of arrests that happen each hour, the man power to cover the courts with all the arrests and effectively cover the activity issues would be huge. A) The only way a court system would work is if they are given specfic dates and times that they have to attend court (which due to peoples daily real lives, that's impossible to setup). B) The harder crimes would mean you had remain in police custody until a judge is available and you get your time in court. Which again, just isn't practical. If there are no judges available, they would be processed normally but once they are in prison they have the right to request a trial at any moment until a judge is available. This isnt a hard process to do, most court cases would take 10-15 minutes tops. Its mostly to make sure everyone gets FAIR charges and not put in prison for a ridiculous amount of time when they're not supposed to. On the alt account character issue, Currently people have alternate accounts in factions AND gangs. It works fine I know tons of people in PD with gang characters and theres no conflict what-so-ever. Metagaming would still apply if a bias is made? Server rules prevent bias already and would continue to prevent bias in a court scenario! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randul Posted July 3, 2019 Report Share Posted July 3, 2019 Currently being worked on all be a heavily tweaked version of you above thread, however I'll save this post to review at a later time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartgg Posted July 3, 2019 Report Share Posted July 3, 2019 My PD friends have explained this above, but I would like to add that if you were in PD, you wouldn’t even think of making the system because of how many arrests happen every hour. If you were on 911 frequency you would hear that there is a suspect getting arrested every 5-10 minutes. This could be implemented, but only when arrest numbers go down... and the recent jail time changes could fix that. On top of that, many more changes would need to be made as outlined above by some members of PD. I would also like to add that having police be judge, jury, and executioner is not as bad as people make it out to be. We aren’t as bad as people think, but a few bad experiences lead to generalization that cops are angry, biased, and would spend every second arresting someone. There are corruption rules and if an officer was found to be abusing their privilege to place false charges, they would get at least a 7 irl day suspension or possibly even a discharge. PD being corrupt and unfair is far from the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremyy Posted July 3, 2019 Report Share Posted July 3, 2019 21 hours ago, alexalex303 said: I'd be in favor on two conditions 1. The Judges are not allowed to have any alternate characters in criminal factions to avoid any conflicts of interest. 2. If there is no Judge available, the person will have a choice between accepting the charges or waiting in prison until a judge is available. I honestly think that the first point is spot on. I feel that the second one can be tweaked. If there are no available judges they can then be afforded the option to pay bail and appear in court when one is available. Might even open the world to bounty hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philo Posted July 3, 2019 Report Share Posted July 3, 2019 We just need lawyers now tbh.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Powers Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 +1 Putting a judge system and judicial system overall in is the next big push the server needs now that prison times are unlocked so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
money Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 (edited) 17 hours ago, heartgg said: My PD friends have explained this above, but I would like to add that if you were in PD, you wouldn’t even think of making the system because of how many arrests happen every hour. If you were on 911 frequency you would hear that there is a suspect getting arrested every 5-10 minutes. This could be implemented, but only when arrest numbers go down... and the recent jail time changes could fix that. On top of that, many more changes would need to be made as outlined above by some members of PD. I would also like to add that having police be judge, jury, and executioner is not as bad as people make it out to be. We aren’t as bad as people think, but a few bad experiences lead to generalization that cops are angry, biased, and would spend every second arresting someone. There are corruption rules and if an officer was found to be abusing their privilege to place false charges, they would get at least a 7 irl day suspension or possibly even a discharge. PD being corrupt and unfair is far from the truth. There are alot of grey areas police can be corrupt in, like giving someone 10 hours jail time instead of 3, stalling: wasting as much time as possible. refusing to accept death rp even though you just shot someone with a shotgun from 2m. (bandage op), taunting people under arrest (dont drop the soap etc.) pressing a panic button while getting out of the car. ((following that logic, you can say "I pushed the gun away from my forehead while i unholstered my own.", i consider this a form of powergaming tbh how many actions can you do at the same time???)) excessive fines selective policing, i had cops drive away from me while telling them about a crime. The list is endless. The only way to solve is this is to make RP rating system, let people give out a negative RP experience vote on a person. No positive RP system because that would just get abused. If you vote fraudulently you will get OOC punished. Edited July 4, 2019 by money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCanadian Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 (edited) On 7/2/2019 at 12:48 PM, alexalex303 said: 1. The Judges are not allowed to have any alternate characters in criminal factions to avoid any conflicts of interest. Would it not also be fair to ask that the judge doesnt have a PD character then? Seems like a double standard. On 7/2/2019 at 12:46 PM, MReefer said: With the amount of arrests that happen each hour, the man power to cover the courts with all the arrests and effectively cover the activity issues would be huge. I would suggest that the court is only open to the charges above X number of hours (X to be determined, but i was thinking 2-3hrs). as it would be impossible to have a proper case with every charge and arrest made on the server. 17 hours ago, heartgg said: I would also like to add that having police be judge, jury, and executioner is not as bad as people make it out to be. Nice meme Edited July 4, 2019 by TheCanadian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartgg Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, money said: There are alot of grey areas police can be corrupt in, like giving someone 10 hours jail time instead of 3, stalling: wasting as much time as possible. refusing to accept death rp even though you just shot someone with a shotgun from 2m. (bandage op), taunting people under arrest (dont drop the soap etc.) pressing a panic button while getting out of the car. ((following that logic, you can say "I pushed the gun away from my forehead while i unholstered my own.", i consider this a form of powergaming tbh how many actions can you do at the same time???)) excessive fines selective policing, i had cops drive away from me while telling them about a crime. The list is endless. The only way to solve is this is to make RP rating system, let people give out a negative RP experience vote on a person. No positive RP system because that would just get abused. If you vote fraudulently you will get OOC punished. I don’t know if these items you have witnessed yourself or someone told you or you just imagined it, but this literally doesn’t happen. We don’t take in just anyone into the faction. IA works around the clock taking in reports (they get at least 30 reports a day, many of them aren’t are petty stuff like “Waaaa the officer said a mean thing”. There are so manny mechanisms: internal announcements, discussions, punishments, IA and just pure human understanding to prevent that kind of “corruption”. In my 10 months of being in PD, I may have seen only one of these things, which was not allowing death RP. And not allowing death RP is perfectly fine no matter what injuries you have. Let me end it by saying, I don’t think that everyone is perfect. But many of you all on the other side think of PD as horrible corrupt peeps that are just picked up off the street and given a badge. It couldn’t be further from the truth. and if you don’t believe me that cops Get punished, go look at our discharge and suspension list on the forums. Edited July 4, 2019 by heartgg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCanadian Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, heartgg said: There are so manny mechanisms: internal announcements, discussions, punishments, IA and just pure human understanding to prevent that kind of “corruption”. The issue i have with IA reports is any time an arrest is made and i try to intervene, ask questions, etc. Whether its my friend or myself being arrested, in my 6months+ and 70 or so days played on the server i am willing to bet 95+% of the time i have been told "just ia report it, we are proceeding with this arrest." There are only 4 instances i can think of where the officer actually took time to get both sides of the altercation and didnt just say "just ia report xD" One was with Philippe Sanchez, the other with Ilia Daniels(twice with each officer). Granted, there might be more instances that i am forgetting but the point i am trying to make is that it seems many officers just answer to disputes of arrest with telling those who are debating it or talking about their side of the altercation with "just ia report, you're still going to jail." Which i mean, sure... i guess they can do that? But it doesn't really promote better RP on the server rather than taking the time to hear both sides and then when you have all the facts deciding if an arrest should be made and of who it should be. The reality is most officers know a lot of times civilians/criminals wont bother to make IA reports because it is a pain in the ass, and they use that to their advantage (it seems) rather than play out the RP and listen to each side. Seems they want to wrap up a scene as fast as they can once they arrive, get on with the arrests, and deal with any injustice in IA rather than listen to both sides. Having a judicial system would add significant RP to the server and help keep both officers and criminals accountable for their actions (Murders, unlawful arrests, etc.). Edited July 4, 2019 by TheCanadian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Carter Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 13 hours ago, money said: refusing to accept death rp even though you just shot someone with a shotgun from 2m. (bandage op), Cops shouldn't be the ones to decide if you get death RP. They almost always deny it, because why wouldn't they? If they've been chasing after you for 10 minutes and you've killed their friends, why on earth would they let you get away with that essentially punishment free? (Just a respawn). Maybe death RP could be changed up, so that if you are killed in the course of escaping police you go into an AFK-able void state for an hour or two, so that you're not right back out on the street but you don't go to jail because it's non-RP. Or, and I think this is a preferable option, give EMTs the power to decide death RP instead. They're the ones with the medical roleplay training and could approach it from a less biased position, if you explain your injuries and what happened in /do. However this is working on the assumption that they don't do exactly what the police want, which does seem to be the case from what I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCanadian Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Malcolm Carter said: Cops shouldn't be the ones to decide if you get death RP. They almost always deny it, because why wouldn't they? If they've been chasing after you for 10 minutes and you've killed their friends, why on earth would they let you get away with that essentially punishment free? (Just a respawn). Maybe death RP could be changed up, so that if you are killed in the course of escaping police you go into an AFK-able void state for an hour or two, so that you're not right back out on the street but you don't go to jail because it's non-RP. Or, and I think this is a preferable option, give EMTs the power to decide death RP instead. They're the ones with the medical roleplay training and could approach it from a less biased position, if you explain your injuries and what happened in /do. However this is working on the assumption that they don't do exactly what the police want, which does seem to be the case from what I've seen. i would +1 this, EMTs would tend to be less bias than PD. If the wounds make sense the criminal should be able to deathRP. I was baffled when i got shot by a .50 cal and death RP was denied. PD are less likely to approve death RP if its like you said a very long chase. Because they see it as you wasting their time, and they want to waste yours by sending you to prison (whether it makes sense RPly or not that you would be alive). Not to mention some people in PD will answer death RPs differently depending on who it is requesting it, i.e if its a zetas, clown, triad, wanted. Etc. or if they just have a personal vendetta against that person. I think the criminal should be able to present the facts of the situation such as "Got shot X times by X people with X weapon" And then if it makes sense for deathRP to be granted based off of the facts, it should be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexalex303 Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 DeathRP is alternative RP that must be approved by everyone involved. As such can not be transferred to EMTs because cops will be present, and all parties must consent to alternative RP. DeathRP is not a right, and a cop saying no doesn't mean he has a person vendetta, attitudes like those are toxic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
money Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 (edited) death rp is a medical condition therefor it should be up to EMT and if he no EMT are around. Everyone involved. PD are hypocrits, they want big 50. cal guns because muh realism, but not want to deal with the consequence of using big guns. namely that you cant arrest that has been absolutely obliterated. Edited July 4, 2019 by money 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Carter Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 46 minutes ago, alexalex303 said: DeathRP is alternative RP that must be approved by everyone involved. As such can not be transferred to EMTs because cops will be present, and all parties must consent to alternative RP. DeathRP is not a right, and a cop saying no doesn't mean he has a person vendetta, attitudes like those are toxic. Well honestly deathRP should be a right if the injuries add up, and it should be the EMTs who decide. Funnily enough, shortly after making that post I was in a very long police chase and denied death RP despite doing /analysewounds and seeing 2 head gunshot wounds and 2 neck gunshot wounds, as well as 6 other gunshot wounds. Death RP was denied because the chase had taken ages and there were loads of cops involved, and as has been said by @TheCanadian, if I get away with just a respawn at hospital, it's their OOC time that I've wasted and they want some revenge, roleplay be damned. Cops should NOT have the OOC right to deny death RP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCanadian Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 52 minutes ago, alexalex303 said: DeathRP is alternative RP that must be approved by everyone involved. As such can not be transferred to EMTs because cops will be present, and all parties must consent to alternative RP. DeathRP is not a right, and a cop saying no doesn't mean he has a person vendetta, attitudes like those are toxic. Yes, hence the suggestion to change how deathRP works. You shouldnt be able to get lit up by 4 carbines when a SWAT insurgent rolls up and still be denied death RP. It doesn't make sense RPly. It isnt toxic, i have literally been told that if i "wasted" their time with the chase, the officer was gonna waste my time with jail. Can you enlighten us all with reasons why death RP would be denied when it is clear that RPly the person would/should be dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexalex303 Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, TheCanadian said: Yes, hence the suggestion to change how deathRP works. You shouldnt be able to get lit up by 4 carbines when a SWAT insurgent rolls up and still be denied death RP. It doesn't make sense RPly. It isnt toxic, i have literally been told that if i "wasted" their time with the chase, the officer was gonna waste my time with jail. Can you enlighten us all with reasons why death RP would be denied when it is clear that RPly the person would/should be dead? Because there are times in which people behave in unrealistic ways, and try their best to get shot at by as many cops as possible, in the hope of getting killed script-wise. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, and the first reaction is /b deathRP. It promotes bad roleplay. If the person is so clearly dead because of their actions, why does no one ever request permission to CK? Because it's not about good roleplay, it's another way to avoid repercussions for your actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCanadian Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, alexalex303 said: If the person is so clearly dead because of their actions, why does no one ever request permission to CK? Because it's not about good roleplay, it's another way to avoid repercussions for your actions. Nah, its to add realism like all the timers and increased jail time adds to the server xD Memes aside, would you be in favour of the addition to your suggestion i made? No PD alts for judges along with no criminal alts, as both of these would give them further bias. Edited July 4, 2019 by TheCanadian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexalex303 Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 Just now, TheCanadian said: Nah, its to add realism like all the timers and increased jail time adds to the server xD Memes aside, would you be in favour of the addition to your suggestion i made? No PD alts for judges along with no criminal alts, as both of these would give them further bias. Yes. I do agree that not allowing criminal alts but allowing PD alts would be unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
money Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, alexalex303 said: Because there are times in which people behave in unrealistic ways, and try their best to get shot at by as many cops as possible, in the hope of getting killed script-wise. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, and the first reaction is /b deathRP. It promotes bad roleplay. If the person is so clearly dead because of their actions, why does no one ever request permission to CK? Because it's not about good roleplay, it's another way to avoid repercussions for your actions. Cops dont have to kill criminals, If you want to capture someone you can stun. Ideally DeathRP should be able to tie alot of different systems together, You have the medical system to analyze wounds, You have the body system that has inventory Ideally everyone would die fatally from gunshots to the head/chest with heavy caliber weapons. leaving their body behind. That way you would have to actually think about where you shoot if you want to arrest or RP with them. This also frees up EMT to spend more quality RP instead of quantity pulls out a bandage for 100 times. Also it could even be that wearing a vest automatically turns you into injured instead of death when hit in the chest multiple times untill your health is low. So criminals are more prone to death while cops are more prone to being injured, everybody happy. I think this deserve their own thread though. without derailing this one. Edited July 4, 2019 by money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
