OOC Corruption From Crims

[SaltyPoiosn]

I have a topic I have been discussing with a few people on the server, Legals and Crims so I wanted to bring this forward and pose a new idea to this current system.

So recently as a criminal on this server I have seen an influx of C.I's (Confidential Informants) or just criminals who have been obtaining gang freqs and giving them to PD and SD in return for money. The people who decide to become crims gain zero RP out of this at all, they simply gain money and that's it, this is clearly a problem and breeds a play to win mentality, I feel as though this sytem is massively flawed and needs a rework to help balance out the clear issues.

I think crim factions should have similar OOC corruption rules to legal factions, the same way that having 12 Corrupt cops in PD or SD affects thier RP, having 12 C.I's affects ours too. Its getting to the point where no matter what we do we get beat, labs get shut down, we go to prison for 3 hours and this cycle is repeated day in, day out. I know a lot of people will say its down to our recruitment but I disagree. If you are in SD or PD put yourselves in our shoes. Imagine everytime you log onto the game there is a chance that your entire freq is beat all day and all the potential ways to make money are basically shut down. It limits our RP and is very unbalanced. 

I really do think the rule needs to be changed and you should have to have valid reasoning and motive to become a C.I besides just gaining money and having protection from raids. All of this is a clear play to win mentality which is something that is so deeply frowned upon within this server.

[HobGoblin]

With my experience in PD I can tell you that not every snitch is for money, there is so much more than money when being a CI. I don't see how being a CI shows play to win mentality. If you want to limit the chances of being snitched on there are countless ways to do this ICly.

As a gang you should aim to have trusted members and not just anyone who can hold a gun at a lab. There are multiple gangs where there will be no snitches and there are other gangs where people even up to high command will snitch to you. How a gang operates and treats its own people affects this a lot.

[Clank]

I agree there should be OOC corruption regulations for crims, not about like informant RP or anything - but instead focused on following lore. Driving sports cars and high end luxury vehicles should be restricted to the LFB/Cartel. If you're in a mob style gang you should drive sedans, etc. If you're a hood gang you should drive lowriders and low end sedans.

Its really sad to see everyone driving paragons, niobes, elegy, kamacho, terminus, issi sport, hakuchou drag, shinobis etc. This really shows a majority of players prefer to play-to-win which is heavily frowned upon in our community.

Edited March 15, 2025 by Clank

[Eliza]

Corruption is typically something that the respective faction leaders determine to be corrupt (unless FM or LFM) step in. As a faction leader you have the right to determine who has or doesn't have the privilege of being a faction member in your faction, whether the reason is IC or OOC.

As @HobGoblin said, CI's may have their own reasons for doing what they do, and can be pretty easily mitigated. 

[dominator]

1 hour ago, HobGoblin said:

With my experience in PD I can tell you that not every snitch is for money, there is so much more than money when being a CI. I don't see how being a CI shows play to win mentality. If you want to limit the chances of being snitched on there are countless ways to do this ICly.

As a gang you should aim to have trusted members and not just anyone who can hold a gun at a lab. There are multiple gangs where there will be no snitches and there are other gangs where people even up to high command will snitch to you. How a gang operates and treats its own people affects this a lot.

I will second this.

Edited March 15, 2025 by dominator

[Demonmit1]

Information is a core part of LEO vs Crim RP. You know well enough there's IC ways to mitigate the flow of information. putting a limit OOCly with rules doesnt make for good RP. Crim factions are able to set their own rules, but limiting it server wide OOCly doesnt make much sense to me. 

I was in shadows for nearly 10 months. i cant think of a time where any one of us got raided or pushed by law enforcement when I was in the group. Sure, freq's could be comped, but being hyper aware we were likely being watched, precautions were taken regularly. Control the flow of information, and the information you're willing to share, and how you share that information, and you'll mitigate retaliation from law enforcement.

Edited March 15, 2025 by Demonmit1

[SteakHappy]

+1.

Being a C.I, theoretically, can bring good RP. However, in my experience, typically it is for a. Money or b. OOC motivations to hurt a faction. (Not saying this is always the case, I am sure there are C.Is who do it for the RP.)

PD/SD/JB etc police corruption because a high ratio of corrupt faction members would be unrealistic and cripple the faction. Having a high ratio of "corrupt" illegal faction members carries the same consequences. I do not see an issue with faction leaders being able to Police this and approve a certain number of C.Is at a time, with the same requirements such as character backstory, etc.

[Steven Hayes]

I would like to support this but i cant because this is different from ooc corruption. If gov had no corruption rules I would bet that over half of the government would be super corrupt, constantly breaking laws, and it would be very unfun and unrealistic. On the other hand, some gangs just have more snitches than others for various, ic reasons, if we are being realistic, getting arrested for a typical gang activity charge (Class 1 class 2 attachments face concealment, sometimes unlawful assembly, face concealment B, controlled substance while armed) more if shit really goes bad and you get evasion, (attempted) murder, drive-by, and more. seeing as you are told in chat by prison script to rp your time in months, you are going to prison for 150 months or IC, for TWELVE and a HALF years. So technically, it makes sense to snitch right then and there to get a few years shaved off even.

Now imagine instead, getting several years taken off, constant free money, protection, free shit, consistently getting to avoid longer prison sentences or prison overall while getting to continue to shoot people and drive car, like us gang members like to do. Makes sense IC despite being very annoying. 

[Harveyyy]

6 hours ago, Clank said:

I don't think RP should be about winning or losing. Yes though I agree, if we enforce lore vehicles. PD will adjust.

The cop wanna catch the criminal. The criminal wanna get away with what they did. Both wanna 'win' - the wording here is irrelevant. Also, people started using meta cars after LEOs got the Scout which was able to keep up with any sports car, even the expensive ones, which imo didn't make any sense because the scout is an SUV, it's supposed to be heavy, but it was/is doing 205-220KM/h, that's what started this trend. A scout should have good handling but a top speed of 180 max. A crown Vic should handle like dog but have high top speed. 

To counter this car-meta trend, PD got the Jugular. Both parties are in the wrong here. So I don't think it's fair to put the blame on one side. Back in the day when PD/SD were only driving Crown Vic's, people were driving Schafter V12's and Massacro's. Now, doing so makes no sense unless you're asking for an arrest because Jugulars get deployed for almost all sports cars, doesn't matter how slow they are. And if you're a 'gang member' with a heavy weapon, you'll get chased by a LC and a Shinobi - the most broken vehicles in the game. Again, I'm not just blaming LEOs here, I'm blaming both sides. 

Edited March 15, 2025 by Harveyyy

[Quietthecutie]

9 hours ago, SaltyPoiosn said:

I know a lot of people will say its down to our recruitment

Youre absolutely right.

8 hours ago, HobGoblin said:

As a gang you should aim to have trusted members and not just anyone who can hold a gun at a lab.

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner!

This is the problem^, and ironically for this suggestion its born from a place of play to win. Many gangs will take on literally anybody who can shoot regardless of how good a fit for their faction they are, how nice they are, how well they know them etc. 

Most gangs change members like underwear. Sure, you have your core members. OGs who have been around forever and essientally lead the faction, but theres also a near constant rotation of new faces in the name of capping out your factions numbers, all of whom bear colours, have freq etc, and a week later they are at a rival gang, repeat. its almost like a glorified pick up team for them to roll labs with and of course they will comp freqs while windowshopping and why not, they have displayed 0 loyalty and have been with you for not even a month.

Shieeet. remember when being part of a gang used to mean something? used to see characters stories and motivations entirely framed around that. nowadays its way more common to just wake up and be like "oh yeah, im wearing X coloured hoodie today."

The solution to the problem is simple. Be more selective in your faction membership. If you dont know if someone can be trusted, dont trust them, let them prove themselves a good fit and trustworthy, thats where youll get your RP, by making prospect members actually have to earn their spot instead of meeting them in a day and in a few hours adding them to faction, giving them freq and cool lets go roll labs bb. 

I really dont think an OOC corruption rule for crims would work on a conceptual level. the only reason it works for legal factions is because they have practically limitless resources and therefore, dont care so much about corruption, because it dosent take money out of their hands the main concern for leadership is "would this corruption make for some good RP?". In a crim faction this isnt the case, therefore the faction leaderships judgement on OOC corruption would be vastly skewed.

 

Edited March 15, 2025 by Quietthecutie

[SaltyPoiosn]

Hello Mr Martin

8 hours ago, HobGoblin said:

With my experience in PD I can tell you that not every snitch is for money, there is so much more than money when being a CI. I don't see how being a CI shows play to win mentality. If you want to limit the chances of being snitched on there are countless ways to do this ICly.

As a gang you should aim to have trusted members and not just anyone who can hold a gun at a lab. There are multiple gangs where there will be no snitches and there are other gangs where people even up to high command will snitch to you. How a gang operates and treats its own people affects this a lot.

Okay, so i do agree with everything you said at face value. However if we break down your reasoning can you not see why this is a problem? "With my experience in PD I can tell you that not every snitch is for money, there is so much more than money when being a CI. I don't see how being a CI shows play to win mentality. If you want to limit the chances of being snitched on there are countless ways to do this ICly" Lets take this part of what you said, "not every snitch is for money" although this may be true this is almost always the case and there is no moderation on an OOC level to stop crims from doing this. They could make up any random reason to start selling freqs, giving away stash locations, giving away cook spots ect ect. The list could go on forever, and I know for a fact the C.I's don't get any other RP besides a transaction with the detective they are snitching too. My main point is that these people are simply doing it for money 90% of the time and never really have true motive for doing so. Why is this allowed??? Its simply unbalanced and unfair to us crims that work hard and have to grind for our money. PD and SD move pay cheque to pay cheque and even if there are a few corrupt cops, 9 times out of 10 you dont even know it. There are many more negatives to crims having snitches than there are for cops, we truly feel the repercussions day in, day out. Im not saying snitch RP should removed, I just think some moderation needs to be put in place in order to maintain the balance and integrity of the server. 

Correct me if I'm wrong samuel but you do not play crim, however put yourself in the shoes of someone like me who is just trying to have fun and interact with people on the server, I'm not on a salary, nor am i on any kind of wage that keeps my character floating. Then I decide I want to go and make money, Im a criminal so of course there should be risks and there are many. Thats because its balanced and makes sense. I do a house robbery, i may get caught, I go and cook drugs, I run the risk of being robbed or killed, I hit banks and stores, I run the risk of being arrested. All these things have something in common and that is the fact that I have entered this RP and am ready for the potential outcome. 

However, when my gang freq is comped, there is a non negligible chance that we will be beat. Why? because we have some guy, sometimes more than one, who is actively giving away our gangs freqs. I would like to reiterate that I would not be upset by this If the person in question had valid motive and reasoning however this is never the case, therefore people join gangs, snitch, make money and go on about their day.

To touch on what you said here "As a gang you should aim to have trusted members and not just anyone who can hold a gun at a lab. There are multiple gangs where there will be no snitches and there are other gangs where people even up to high command will snitch to you. How a gang operates and treats its own people affects this a lot" Of course we aim to have trusted members, just like LEO's aim to have trusted employees. The difference is, is that we are forced to siphon through the barrel of shit in order to find a diamond. Whereas if you find a shit, you simply ban them from the server or punish them because they are breaching OOC corruption. The way criminal RP is setup on this server forces us to max out our faction, we need numbers to survive because of how the turf system works. We have two options 1. We act like Milestone rouges and are cool with every gang on the server, or 2. We have large groups of people and hold down locations in order for us to suply our guys. This makes it dfficult to filter out the bad from the good. However if there were OOC corruption rules in place for C.Is the process of finding a snitch would amazing and actually provide good RP. As an example of how flawed the current system is, theoretically you could have a new flight in your gang, just like PD can, and they can snitch on everything you do with ZERO repercussions. If we kill them, they are NLR'd and they move onto another gang, if we dont kill them, they are labeled a snitch for all of two weeks and they back in another gang. You see the problem here??? There isnt enough integrity amongst crims to uphold that level of RP and stick their word and to stop recruiting snitches. I know of at least 10 snitches that are still in gangs to this even though it is well known they have snitched in the past. 

Overall, the concept of C.I's is incredible, in actual fact the system is unbalanced and flawed.

[Ranger]

Hej,

OOC Corruption is not enforced by server rules, it is solely enforced internally within factions with oversight from LFM (however, I do not believe that they play any hand in corruption permissions unless it's an extreme case).

Adding OOC policies for a gang/player-ran group is simply down to said group to enforce and establish via OOC policies and making new members aware through the recruitment process(es). 

If you believe it's something that should be widespread between illegal factions, as this is something that affects them specifically, I would suggest reaching out to a member of FM management to see if it's something they'd be interested in looking into.

With this being something that is down to faction leadership to establish together with FM, this server rule suggestion will be archived.

[Osborn]

I want to address something important. PD and SD do not have a corruption rule for their own benefit, but for the sake of others. My faction, SD, would not suffer if I abolished the corruption rule. There would be the occasional leak, but at this point, we have accepted that information is already being shared among friends in Discord DMs. But who would truly feel the effects of such an abolishment? You.

What do you think for example prevents officers and deputies from planting evidence against you out of personal dislike, kicking down doors at random, supplying weapons, drugs, and other evidence to your rivals, or even tracing your location for them? The corruption rule.

This rule exists to maintain a realistic balance between good and bad officers, not for our own advantage but for the sake of everyone. PD, SD, DOC, MD, and other departments share a central responsibility in maintaining server health. Allowing an entire department to be corrupt would have catastrophic effects on players and ruin the experience.

I cannot stress this enough. The corruption rule does not benefit us nearly as much as the proposed suggestion implies. Pushing for an OOC rule to prevent confidential informants is simply an act of self-preservation. Gangs are inherently corrupt because they are criminals. Criminals act in their own self-interest and do what it takes to survive.

Yes, it would be problematic if someone became an informant out of OOC spite or for other OOC reasons. However, that is something for server staff to handle. If you have concerns, bring them to staff, and they can investigate accordingly.