LSPD RP Overhaul + Standard of RP

[alexalex303]

5 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

Are players able to dispute their charges at the time of arrest ?

Are players able to defend themselves or hire a lawyer ?

Is the word of a player equal to that of an officer when it comes to providing evidence ?

No, they are not able to dispute their charges at the time of arrest.

Yes, they are able to defend themselves, and even enlist the help of their friends to make their case.

The word of a civilian / convicted felon as in his testimony is NOT equal to a cop's testimony. The word of a player when providing actual evidence (IC recordings, IC pictures, etc) is equal to that of an officer.

[Andor]

4 minutes ago, TedAnderson said:

And he is saying that if you just stop and recognize government power then this wouldn't be a problem, rather than just running everytime you think you are going to get arrested. The cops are well trained and professional. The system is fine.

I have to dissagree with you, the system is flawed to its core. There is no balance in it.

[Cyrus Raven]

1 minute ago, TedAnderson said:

If the police force care to carry out an investigation, they will do so. If it is not needed then you politely ask to speak to the officers supervisor and explain the situation to them.

All of these criminals act like dicks towards the police and expect the cops to listen to them.

They are most likely lying anyway.

Nice, you managed to not engage at all with the topic at hand. However, you seem to be taking the RP above everything approach, to which I will answer. Ok fine, cops can be dicks because maybe criminals are dicks, but if I ask for a lawyer or hearing I have to be provided with one, simple as that. There problem solved.

[TedAnderson]

Just now, Kyle White Raven said:

Nice, you managed to not engage at all with the topic at hand. However, you seem to be taking the RP above everything approach, to which I will answer. Ok fine, cops can be dicks because maybe criminals are dicks, but if I ask for a lawyer or hearing I have to be provided with one, simple as that. There problem solved.

Things like that of DOJ, Lawyer firms have been suggested but never followed through with. I too think there should be a court system. For some reason it keeps getting denied

[alexalex303]

Just now, Andor said:

how is it insulting? I mean if he is wrong he is wrong, that doesnt mean he is insults you. He makes a statement on his experience and gets thrown under the bus by some people because of it? Thats in my opinion the wrong attitude. We should as a community talk to eachother instead of being easily offended or throwning insults ( not saying you are either just making a statement ).

If he has RPed on servers like NGG ( which i have been a part off myself ) and felt differnt about the PD there then he does here he is allowed to bring up valid ( from his perspective ) points. Dont dismiss him right away because you feel he is wrong. 

Everyones experiences differnt things while being involved in the same situation. Because it doesnt allign with your believes doesnt make it less valluable

It is insulting because he has no knowledge on the matter, and yet he presents his beliefs as objective facts, rather than his feelings. The issue is of informed discussion. If I want to say that a certain institution is functioning incorrectly, I need to know exactly how it functions, explain why it is wrong, and (preferably) provide an alternative that can be implemented in the current climate. If I were to start speaking about DCC tomorrow, and go over ten issues that are almost all imaginary, and offer untenable solutions as my suggestions, I believe that people would be justified in considering it an insult.

 

[Andor]

Just now, TedAnderson said:

Things like that of DOJ, Lawyer firms have been suggested but never followed through with. I too think there should be a court system. For some reason it keeps getting denied

I can explain why it gets denied. Currently the police isnt bogged down with having to explain themselfs or having to go to trail and keeping officers off the street allowing them to follow up on every small crime commited. When there is a court system this takes officers off the street attenting court hearings meaning less time on the street. Meaning less control over said streets from the PD and this will shift towards the criminal elements of the city. This is something the powers that be dont like and will never be implimented

[TedAnderson]

1 minute ago, Andor said:

I can explain why it gets denied. Currently the police isnt bogged down with having to explain themselfs or having to go to trail and keeping officers off the street allowing them to follow up on every small crime commited. When there is a court system this takes officers off the street attenting court hearings meaning less time on the street. Meaning less control over said streets from the PD and this will shift towards the criminal elements of the city. This is something the powers that be dont like and will never be implimented

Them make like "Court Police" That take all the information gathered and they take the suspect, take them to their holding cell in the courthouse and take them to their court case then they can call DOC to take them to jail afterwards.

[Andor]

Just now, alexalex303 said:

It is insulting because he has no knowledge on the matter, and yet he presents his beliefs as objective facts, rather than his feelings. The issue is of informed discussion. If I want to say that a certain institution is functioning incorrectly, I need to know exactly how it functions, explain why it is wrong, and (preferably) provide an alternative that can be implemented in the current climate. If I were to start speaking about DCC tomorrow, and go over ten issues that are almost all imaginary, and offer untenable solutions as my suggestions, I believe that people would be justified in considering it an insult.

 

He made no attempt to insult you, he made a observation and came to a conclusion, these are the facts that he brought to the table, these facts might be half truths or paint a incomplete picture. But instead of dismissing his entire point that caused this experience because its not 100% factual from your perspective you should open a dialog and come to comon grounds. 
No one person will ever have all the facts before opening a dialog, lets come together instead of negativity

 

[Andor]

1 minute ago, TedAnderson said:

Them make like "Court Police" That take all the information gathered and they take the suspect, take them to their holding cell in the courthouse and take them to their court case then they can call DOC to take them to jail afterwards.

Again, time and resources that are taken off the street. Who will be these court police? Will it be from the current PD force or will they need to be recruited ?
Like I said, the powers to be dont want to waste the resources on this system. If they want to put in the effort to create a balanced court system to begin with.

[TedAnderson]

4 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

It is insulting because he has no knowledge on the matter, and yet he presents his beliefs as objective facts, rather than his feelings. The issue is of informed discussion. If I want to say that a certain institution is functioning incorrectly, I need to know exactly how it functions, explain why it is wrong, and (preferably) provide an alternative that can be implemented in the current climate. If I were to start speaking about DCC tomorrow, and go over ten issues that are almost all imaginary, and offer untenable solutions as my suggestions, I believe that people would be justified in considering it an insult.

 

This is completely irrelevant, but have y'all thought of making Blaine County Sheriffs Department? I don't know how it would work exactly but it would bring a tad more rp

[Cyrus Raven]

1 minute ago, alexalex303 said:

No, they are not able to dispute their charges at the time of arrest.

Yes, they are able to defend themselves, and even enlist the help of their friends to make their case.

The word of a civilian / convicted felon as in his testimony is NOT equal to a cop's testimony. The word of a player when providing actual evidence (IC recordings, IC pictures, etc) is equal to that of an officer.

1

''The word of a player when providing actual evidence (IC recordings, IC pictures, etc) is equal to that of an officer.'' - This is the entire point of my suggestion... The reason why (based on my experience) the cop RP is so bad is that they simply resort to things like ''Oh I saw a similar car at a similar time so he is the criminal'' when we should be moving away from this and actually having an RP heavy dialogue between the player and officer. 

 

Here is how I see a good scenario:

 

Criminal: Officer, I did not hit anyone with my car, I don't know why you have me on my knees and in cuffs

Officer: Alright sir, hold on, I will talk to you shortly, right now you are being detained because we identified a black car like yours at a scene on an accident

''Officer proceeds to do a bunch of /me and /do on the car and the suspect to determine the truth, during this roleplay the criminal cannot lie. ''

Officer: Alright, after taking a look at your car and having CSI look at the car we have determined that there is enough evidence to proceed with an arrest, at this time you are being charged with assault with a deadly weapon. 

''reads my rights''

Criminal: I want my lawyer.

....

You get the point right, a much more fluid dialogue that allows interaction between criminal and cop and adequate time to establish the truth as opposed to using the ''EHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I SAW IT SO THAT'S THE TRUTH'' in every single case (I'm sure there are times where this is enough, I'm talking about more complex crimes).

 

 

 

''Yes, they are able to defend themselves, and even enlist the help of their friends to make their case.'' - This is highly divergent to my actual experience and that of others on the server. Generally speaking, asking for a lawyer or expressing interest in self-representation leads you nowhere but jail. If you act differently then I can only give you praise, sadly this is not the norm under my experience.

[TedAnderson]

2 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

''The word of a player when providing actual evidence (IC recordings, IC pictures, etc) is equal to that of an officer.'' - This is the entire point of my suggestion... The reason why (based on my experience) the cop RP is so bad is that they simply resort to things like ''Oh I saw a similar car at a similar time so he is the criminal'' when we should be moving away from this and actually having an RP heavy dialogue between the player and officer. 

 

Here is how I see a good scenario:

 

Criminal: Officer, I did not hit anyone with my car, I don't know why you have me on my knees and in cuffs

Officer: Alright sir, hold on, I will talk to you shortly, right now you are being detained because we identified a black car like yours at a scene on an accident

''Officer proceeds to do a bunch of /me and /do on the car and the suspect to determine the truth, during this roleplay the criminal cannot lie. ''

Officer: Alright, after taking a look at your car and having CSI look at the car we have determined that there is enough evidence to proceed with an arrest, at this time you are being charged with assault with a deadly weapon. 

''reads my rights''

Criminal: I want my lawyer.

....

You get the point right, a much more fluid dialogue that allows interaction between criminal and cop and adequate time to establish the truth as opposed to using the ''EHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I SAW IT SO THAT'S THE TRUTH'' in every single case (I'm sure there are times where this is enough, I'm talking about more complex crimes).

 

 

 

''Yes, they are able to defend themselves, and even enlist the help of their friends to make their case.'' - This is highly divergent to my actual experience and that of others on the server. Generally speaking, asking for a lawyer or expressing interest in self-representation leads you nowhere but jail. If you act differently then I can only give you praise, sadly this is not the norm under my experience.

With the /me /do and the criminal cannot die, they already do that.

When i was working for the MD i had to call PD for a stolen bike.

The officer got out his fingerprint kit and printed the bike and it came out as stolen. They already do things like that

[Andor]

3 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

''The word of a player when providing actual evidence (IC recordings, IC pictures, etc) is equal to that of an officer.'' - This is the entire point of my suggestion... The reason why (based on my experience) the cop RP is so bad is that they simply resort to things like ''Oh I saw a similar car at a similar time so he is the criminal'' when we should be moving away from this and actually having an RP heavy dialogue between the player and officer. 

 

Here is how I see a good scenario:

 

Criminal: Officer, I did not hit anyone with my car, I don't know why you have me on my knees and in cuffs

Officer: Alright sir, hold on, I will talk to you shortly, right now you are being detained because we identified a black car like yours at a scene on an accident

''Officer proceeds to do a bunch of /me and /do on the car and the suspect to determine the truth, during this roleplay the criminal cannot lie. ''

Officer: Alright, after taking a look at your car and having CSI look at the car we have determined that there is enough evidence to proceed with an arrest, at this time you are being charged with assault with a deadly weapon. 

''reads my rights''

Criminal: I want my lawyer.

....

You get the point right, a much more fluid dialogue that allows interaction between criminal and cop and adequate time to establish the truth as opposed to using the ''EHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I SAW IT SO THAT'S THE TRUTH'' in every single case (I'm sure there are times where this is enough, I'm talking about more complex crimes).

 

 

 

''Yes, they are able to defend themselves, and even enlist the help of their friends to make their case.'' - This is highly divergent to my actual experience and that of others on the server. Generally speaking, asking for a lawyer or expressing interest in self-representation leads you nowhere but jail. If you act differently then I can only give you praise, sadly this is not the norm under my experience.

Fun fact, I actually RPed being a laywer a few times and even with a fun RP session defending a "super criminal" who wanted to poison the water supply I was approuched the next day by a officer that told me 'if i impersanted a goverment employee again i would be arrested' when i asked what he meant he replied 'all laywers are goverment employees and you cannot RP as one'

[Cyrus Raven]

1 minute ago, TedAnderson said:

With the /me /do and the criminal cannot die, they already do that.

When i was working for the MD i had to call PD for a stolen bike.

The officer got out his fingerprint kit and printed the bike and it came out as stolen. They already do things like that

I agree some do, I don't think that it happens very regularly it depends on the officer. I would go to an extreme degree as to make this a requirement and not an optional thing.

[TedAnderson]

Just now, Kyle White Raven said:

I agree some do, I don't think that it happens very regularly it depends on the officer. I would go to an extreme degree as to make this a requirement and not an optional thing.

I agree it should be a protocol.

[Cyrus Raven]

On 3/30/2019 at 6:29 PM, Andor said:

Fun fact, I actually RPed being a laywer a few times and even with a fun RP session defending a "super criminal" who wanted to poison the water supply I was approuched the next day by a officer that told me 'if i impersanted a goverment employee again i would be arrested' when i asked what he meant he replied 'all laywers are goverment employees and you cannot RP as one'

Yup, that's sad, it's the whole ''only admins are lawyers'' meme which is in place because people are lazy and unwillingly to put a justice/lawyer system in place.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Kyle White Raven

[idid]

So if the complaint is taking the police off the street how about this: 

 

Police arrests someone and then that person has the right to an attorney.  If they make an effort to reach an attorney and there are none in game, then carry on as usual.  However if there's one available, they meet at the police station to defend the case.  

[Xoza]

4 hours ago, Kyle White Raven said:

I'll take this advice into consideration, but based on my personal experience only once have I been allowed to explain what happened to an officer, the rest of the times (about 6-7) involved me telling the officer multiple times what had happened and asking for a lawyer and/or further investigation and being met with silence or ''there is not much I can do'' and promptly being placed in jail. 

 

If we can make what you described the standard or a common occurrence it would improve roleplay a lot.

There are times where criminal actions will lead up to charges without question, this is what you did, you're going to jail for it.

Example... You Felony Evaded, which you would be charged for, a charge you would agree, OOCly, that they have the right to charge you with, because you did, as they witnessed. However... if they say you did it twice, and you have other charges. That's when you can start questioning and asking why. If they say you evaded us before, then you can challenge and say, this is the first time you've had a run in... and so on. As long as you're honest OOCly and .. even a little honest ICly. You can create reasonable doubt that would push an officer to verify charges.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Xoza

[Cyrus Raven]

13 minutes ago, Xoza said:

There are times where criminal actions will lead up to charges without question, this is what you did, you're going to jail for it.

Example... You Felony Evaded, which you would be charged for, a charge you would agree, OOCly, that they have the right to charge you with, because you did, as they witnessed. However... if they say you did it twice, and you have other charges. That's when you can start questioning and asking why. If they say you evaded us before, then you can challenge and say, this is the first time you've had a run in... and so on. As long as you're honest OOCly and .. even a little honest ICly. You can create reasonable doubt that would push an officer to verify charges.

Again, I'll take that into consideration, but this hasn't been my experience in the slightest, maybe I am unlucky. These haven't been things where I'm just salty because I got caught. These were situations where I was being accused of doing stuff that I hadn't done and neither IC or OOC actions got me out of it.

[padpilot]

On 3/30/2019 at 3:10 PM, ImSuspensee said:

Hello! I'd just like to give a view from the other side. To say we power game constantly is far from the truth. Our PD handbook states that an officers word is enough to add charges. If an officer IDs someone as a suspect, charges get added. There is an IA section in the PD Forums to file complaints, both IC and OOC. There is also the Player Reports section. PD is tasked with dealing with, well, everyone shit to be quite frank. New players who don't understand RP, trolls, and yes, rule breakers. To point things out, look at the Player Reports section right now. It is at least 90% against people who are not in the police force. To solve your issues with the server, maybe start there. EVERY and when I say every I don't mean most, EVERY time I go to pull someone over they evade. They evade, shoot at the cops to get away, and we we return fire on them after THEY initiated, THEY call backup to kill the cops. Most of the times, they are being pulled over for speeding, or something that won't result in an arrest.

3

Report report report, don't engage them, or chase them or encourage them, all officers on the scene should be required to be recording and should all submit reports. The player has then banned I'm guessing. Never to be seen again. Im guessing you guys do this right and you only evcer run into a player doing this once? because ofc they get banned shortly after

On 3/30/2019 at 3:10 PM, ImSuspensee said:

Every time we get someone in cuffs, it is instantly KOS on every cop on the scene. If PD were to do this to the criminal factions, it would be a shit storm. You can kill me and six cops standing around your friend... why? Because we look the same as the cop arresting your friend? Applied to the other side, if your friend is shooting at us, we don't gun him and everyone around him down. 

 

 

I imagine this is a problem for you guys and is due to a lack of RP a lot of the time but I just wanted to remind you that officers of the law tend to stick to it more than criminals. Those that break the rules (life rules, not server) will always have an advantage over those that are restricted to the laws. 

[Teca]

+1 i agree that encounters with PD are a one way street. People are getting arrested for their gun being warm not hot but warm which means it havent been fired in last few minutes. When trying to explain situation none listens or none cares about what you are saying.

[Victor Einhart]

-

Edited April 3, 2019 by Victor Einhart

[Cyrus Raven]

1 minute ago, Victor Einhart said:

If you want to RP with cops, stop trying to kill them over every arrest.

I agree, in general, RP should be elevated on both sides as much as possible. But I should add that every situation I've talked about in this thread hasn't involved me shooting a single officer. 

[trashplayboi]

I do agree with practically all of your points here, they are strongly backed up by other peoples (and a few of my own) personal experience with the PD / SWAT. I'm prefacing this by saying I agree with ALMOST everything you are saying in here, have suffered from multiple bad RP situations and spent hours in prison for stuff I know I haven't done. I would just like to add a couple of my own thoughts.

 

In regards to people being charged for something they didn't do, we need to also think about how this works out of RP. We do know that a percentage of people currently incarcerated around the world really are innocent but are on ludicrous charges such as murder, kidnapping etc. I can see margin of error, especially RP wise, to be present within this RP community as it is something that does happen. You were in the wrong place, at the wrong time, had some matching characteristics or properties (your car) linking to someone else who had committed a crime - it was only inevitable that you drew the short straw. I'm sure you know this, so I'm not sticking on this point for too long, but you can't completely blame Officers for arresting the wrong people... sometimes.

 

Now, legal representation. I'm all for this and your notes about having some sort of RP defence is completely valid and I do believe this should somehow be implemented to simply allow more realistic and fun RP. Following on your suggestion would be allowing incarcerated people (jail or prison) to ask an Officer to view their phones and give the Officers a number to call for legal representation. We could have a brand new faction from this that adds another/more job(s). You could either pay the faction % wise through automated tax where you can ask for a specific lawyer(s) from the faction or use free solicitation (anyone who's on duty arrives) to defend your rights. Allow them to walk in the cell with the detainee or in a private room for up to 10 minutes or so to discuss the current stance of the person being detained. It is then up to the lawyers/solicitors to challenge the Police Officer who arrested you, or even a central court (again, more job ideas I guess?). If the Police Officer lacks evidence such as bodycam footage, crime scene forensics, CCTV etc then legally the person must be released.  Good cops which follow rules and stand by the handbook shouldn't have any problems to fight cases if required. While court time is decided, have the person on bail? No show is a new warrant, invalidating your next legal representation request?

 

Anyway, don't want to go too far off the tracks as a legal system could be discussed in a whole new 10 page topic. So back to the main points you brought up. You mentioned how most cops do just want to arrest you and slam you back to MR asap, and while it's RP logically bad we can't blame them too much as if any cop is arresting or even looking into an individual the chances of being pulled up on by a gang increases 100x for each second they are in the field. Just yesterday I was farming and a simple traffic stop turned out into a massive cops v gang shootout. I don't blame cops for trying to get you back to somewhere safer asap when it seems like unless you have 3 cruisers just behind you that whatever situation they get into normally results in a shootout. Cops are like walking targets for any gang and quite literally with the alliances around it's 5 gang members per cop in almost any situation. No wonder they want to get back into their cruisers with you in the shortest time possible.

 

Don't want to go off the rails here and write an essay but all of your points are valid, and I agree whole heartedly with what you have proposed and your suggestions. I also find myself agreeing with the IC officers on this thread too so I'm on neither side specifically here. Both have good suggestions. 

 

Let's also not forget the PD seems like it has hundreds of new recruits and cadets as well as some first time, slightly worried players. As time goes on we should hopefully see some people leave as they don't like the job, others discharged for dishonourable actions and hopefully the quality of PO's increase. But this whole thing has two sides and we can't really focus on Police RP without also pointing fingers at Gang RP. 

Edited April 3, 2019 by trashplayboi

[Cyrus Raven]

7 minutes ago, trashplayboi said:

I do agree with practically all of your points here, they are strongly backed up by other peoples (and a few of my own) personal experience with the PD / SWAT. I'm prefacing this by saying I agree with ALMOST everything you are saying in here, have suffered from multiple bad RP situations and spent hours in prison for stuff I know I haven't done. I would just like to add a couple of my own thoughts.

 

In regards to people being charged for something they didn't do, we need to also think about how this works out of RP. We do know that a percentage of people currently incarcerated around the world really are innocent but are on ludicrous charges such as murder, kidnapping etc. I can see margin of error, especially RP wise, to be present within this RP community as it is something that does happen. You were in the wrong place, at the wrong time, had some matching characteristics or properties (your car) linking to someone else who had committed a crime - it was only inevitable that you drew the short straw. I'm sure you know this, so I'm not sticking on this point for too long, but you can't completely blame Officers for arresting the wrong people... sometimes.

 

Now, legal representation. I'm all for this and your notes about having some sort of RP defence is completely valid and I do believe this should somehow be implemented to simply allow more realistic and fun RP. Following on your suggestion would be allowing incarcerated people (jail or prison) to ask an Officer to view their phones and give the Officers a number to call for legal representation. We could have a brand new faction from this that adds another/more job(s). You could either pay the faction % wise through automated tax where you can ask for a specific lawyer(s) from the faction or use free solicitation (anyone who's on duty arrives) to defend your rights. Allow them to walk in the cell with the detainee or in a private room for up to 10 minutes or so to discuss the current stance of the person being detained. It is then up to the lawyers/solicitors to challenge the Police Officer who arrested you, or even a central court (again, more job ideas I guess?). If the Police Officer lacks evidence such as bodycam footage, crime scene forensics, CCTV etc then legally the person must be released.  Good cops which follow rules and stand by the handbook shouldn't have any problems to fight cases if required. While court time is decided, have the person on bail? No show is a new warrant, invalidating your next legal representation request?

 

Anyway, don't want to go too far off the tracks as a legal system could be discussed in a whole new 10 page topic. So back to the main points you brought up. You mentioned how most cops do just want to arrest you and slam you back to MR asap, and while it's RP logically bad we can't blame them too much as if any cop is arresting or even looking into an individual the chances of being pulled up on by a gang increases 100x for each second they are in the field. Just yesterday I was farming and a simple traffic stop turned out into a massive cops v gang shootout. I don't blame cops for trying to get you back to somewhere safer asap when it seems like unless you have 3 cruisers just behind you that whatever situation they get into normally results in a shootout. I've spoken to a few Officers and generally the ones I have come across IC are quite understanding, but yes I've also come across ones that don't care and just lock you up in the slammer.

 

Don't want to go off the rails here and write an essay but all of your points are valid, and I agree whole heartedly with what you have proposed and your suggestions. I also find myself agreeing with the IC officers on this thread too so I'm on neither side specifically here. Both have good suggestions. 

 

Let's also not forget the PD seems like it has hundreds of new recruits and cadets as well as some first time, slightly worried players so as time goes on we should hopefully see some people leave as they don't like the job, others discharged for dishonourable actions and hopefully the quality of PO's increase. Funnily enough, most of the higher ranking Officers I have encountered have been nothing but friendly IC and understanding albeit being a bit pretentious as that's what happens when you carry a golden badge.

Firstly I like the basic legal system setup you've outlined. I think that this system would give players a recourse if they believe they have been wrongfully accused (or if they just want to try their luck I guess), but further from that, I think it would increase RP standards. Having longer prison sentences where you spend a portion of that time getting a lawyer, talking to him, maybe going to court seems like something that would take time (In a good way). For me personally, it's all about those interactions that spiral into an RP story. 

 

 

As for the other point with regards to how criminals and cops act, I must admit, I came off way too hard at the start of this thread, most likely because I was upset at the situations I had found myself in at the time. Having said this, I don't think I was wrong in voicing my opinion, but I think I ended up making a few statements that came off as me trying to portray the entire police force based on a handful of personal experiences. 

 

However, as it stands right now, having had time to gauge the community by browsing the forums, player reports, etc... and by having more hands-on time in the server, I think it comes down to an overall community problem, not just PD. Hopefully that is something we can fix,