Add crim to cop response ratios

[Ibrahim Bibi]

I mainly play crim and anytime I commit any sort of crime which results into a police chase, there is always a huge amount of police not dependent on the amount of crims involved. I understand that for a big gang this wouldn't be a problem, but the police should take into account the amount of criminals that are involved in the crime and respond with a fair number.  

for example if I commit a ATM robbery alone the same amount of police would pursuit me as they would if I was in cooperation with 4 other criminals. I think a fair ratio that I've seen work on other servers is like 1:3 on a non-violent crime and 1:4 on a violent crime, however this is highly changeable.

This will only benefit the criminals who run solo or just in a duo. If a whole gang is committing a crime, The police force will still just respond with higher numbers.

I just see this as a way to combat the dying crim population without hurting police population. The police will still be actively doing something since more criminals will see lesser crimes as inherently worth it.

From other suggestions I've read, I've tried to not be another "complaint topic with no real suggestion or goal to reach" I personally don't see any negatives however being pretty ignorant with how the police really respond on there behalf I'm not one to dictate. 

This is my version of the ridulous suggestion, https://forum.eclipse-rp.net/topic/149353-kick-half-of-pdsd/ .

 

[Bala]

HAHA.

Tell you what, we'll flip that in the North American timezones.

[Ibrahim Bibi]

2 minutes ago, Bala said:

HAHA.

Tell you what, we'll flip that in the North American timezones.

I honestly do not have a single clue what you mean.

[Ash]

How would they know how many there is before they actually respond? 

[Ibrahim Bibi]

Just now, Ash said:

How would they know how many there is before they actually respond? 

In a real life scenario, cops do not respond to a lesser crime like a carjacking with a full force of units, they will send out a couple units to check out and will call for backup if needed. 

I'm not focused on serious and dangerous crimes in this topic, for example bank robberies and murders.

[Cup]

I mean its hard because the response numbers are kind of ICly motivated.... the amount of times ive been shot at pulling someone over for doing 10 mph over the speed limit

[GR_Seb]

What distinguishes Eclipse from other servers is its refusal to endorse the "fair game" mentality, and I appreciate that. Just as ten individuals can collaborate to commit a robbery alongside you, we can have ten officers responding to your actions, even if you're acting alone. You also have to consider the time zones with six officers on duty having to enforce the law against ninety people. 

[Ibrahim Bibi]

33 minutes ago, GR_Seb said:

What distinguishes Eclipse from other servers is its refusal to endorse the "fair game" mentality, and I appreciate that. Just as ten individuals can collaborate to commit a robbery alongside you, we can have ten officers responding to your actions, even if you're acting alone. You also have to consider the time zones with six officers on duty having to enforce the law against ninety people. 

The refusal to implement "fair game" mentality really poses against In a scenario where a lone player commits a relatively minor crime, the disproportionate response from law enforcement creates an environment where smaller-scale criminal activities become excessively risky or unfeasible. Which is a major reason why solo criminals and the whole criminal population is dying. Right now the overly aggressive policing tactics will deter new or less experienced players from engaging in criminal activities, which will only make the criminal population lessen overtime.

As a police officer you want criminals in the server, they create content and enjoyment for you. So why not let players who don't want to partake in a frag hungry gang actively participate and find enjoyment within the server without feeling overly discouraged or disadvantaged.

The police in the server are more seasoned players and understand that most fights will unique and different in numbers. However a new player who robs a car or an ATM then gets piled on by 8 police cars, will not. 

This system would have many benefits such as it would encourage a wider variety of playstyles such as players who prefer operating independently or in small groups would find this system more accommodating, enabling them to participate in criminal activities without the necessity of forming larger groups for protection against an overwhelmingly large police force.

This is would not only make it more fair and fun for crims it would also create more situations where police are only fighting against 2 or 3 people instead of 9 or 10. Leaving you not as outnumbered in your North American timezones.

[Buggs]

58 minutes ago, GR_Seb said:

What distinguishes Eclipse from other servers is its refusal to endorse the "fair game" mentality, and I appreciate that. Just as ten individuals can collaborate to commit a robbery alongside you, we can have ten officers responding to your actions, even if you're acting alone. You also have to consider the time zones with six officers on duty having to enforce the law against ninety people. 

I'm going to be respectfully honest with you here. I feel that is incorrect. The entire point to sever rules is to maintain fairness. The Judicial Branch as a faction is an IC way to again achieve fairness. You may remain on the sever based off these things that you have proclaimed "distinguishes Eclipse from other servers", but I believe that is a widely mischaracterized statement.

Sever rules have been changed over time to maintain balance and fairness, look at the recent changes to ATM robbers for one. The list goes on and on, all in the effort of ensuring the server remains FAIR for all. Please don't make general statements like these when the facts would show that Staff and Admins do care about keeping things fair between player pools.

Edit: Back to the topic at hand, I would agree in certain situations this makes sense, but in other areas it does not. When the city is on high alert as it is now, you would expect and increased police presence on every call. Context is key.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Buggs

[Jett_J]

Sometimes there are overwhelming amounts of LEOs, sometimes there are one or two on the entire server. I don't think Eclipse needs to implement a rule of 3 or anything similar to that. We want everyone to get the opportunity to respond to things. Pretty often we can go long periods of time in the day without any activity so it's unfair to stop people from getting to take part in situations. We don't restrict the number of criminals that are allowed to rob banks and stores etc either. Both sides have to look at their numbers and decide what activities are worth getting involved in.

Sometimes there might be a snake of like 10 units on a traffic stop at peak times when nothing else is going on, but that's also the fault of the driver if they intend on evading since they are waiting and allowing all these units to respond by sitting there and not evading immediately.

 

[DoTo]

2 hours ago, Ibrahim Bibi said:

I honestly do not have a single clue what you mean.

Later at night and during north american timezones, cops are outnumbered by crims in almost every single situation. Should we introduce a crim to cop response ratio too?

[Ibrahim Bibi]

13 minutes ago, Jett_J said:

Sometimes there are overwhelming amounts of LEOs, sometimes there are one or two on the entire server. I don't think Eclipse needs to implement a rule of 3 or anything similar to that. We want everyone to get the opportunity to respond to things. Pretty often we can go long periods of time in the day without any activity so it's unfair to stop people from getting to take part in situations. We don't restrict the number of criminals that are allowed to rob banks and stores etc either. Both sides have to look at their numbers and decide what activities are worth getting involved in.

Sometimes there might be a snake of like 10 units on a traffic stop at peak times when nothing else is going on, but that's also the fault of the driver if they intend on evading since they are waiting and allowing all these units to respond by sitting there and not evading immediately.

 

Okay, have you thought of the reasoning behind you having no activity for long periods of time?

Maybe it might be because during that time when something does happen you will pile "10 units on a traffic stop at peak times"

How can you expect criminals to want to do any crime when its not worth it in most aspects you also overrespond due to your mentality of "We want everyone to get the opportunity to respond to things". If everyone doesn't respond to the same thing you do understand more criminals will find a higher chance of reward from partaking in a crime therefore doing more crimes.

Sometimes a few cops may not to have to respond to an ATM robbery chase with a warrener. However more of these crimes will be happening some with alot of partaking people allowing every cop to respond? 

[Ibrahim Bibi]

19 minutes ago, DoTo said:

Later at night and during north american timezones, cops are outnumbered by crims in almost every single situation. Should we introduce a crim to cop response ratio too?

Bear in mind, a criminal has a lot more to lose then a cop. 

No cop has never grinded hours for a gun.

[Quietthecutie]

On 12/10/2023 at 6:43 PM, Buggs said:

The Judicial Branch as a faction is an IC way to again achieve fairness. 

Incorrect.

JB actually has very little to no bearing on fairness of LEO interactions. yes, court cases can happen and convictions can be overturned, but these are on a IC legal basis, not a fairness basis. a good defence attorney character could point out a lack of evidence or failure by the LEOs to complete the proper paperwork etc but they wouldn't get involved with anything like an excessive amount of respondents to a minor crime, which I believe is what we are talking about here.

By the time JB gets involved said person has already been chased, caught and served their time in DOC. the only real thing JB offers you is a chance to have convictions removed from your characters record, and a small monetary reward as compensation for the time served. the real strength that JB offers are unique RP ops, not game fairness. if people have an issue with cop responses or how they caught you, an IC/OOC IA or forum report (depending on what happened) is a much more effective route.

On 12/10/2023 at 6:43 PM, Buggs said:

I'm going to be respectfully honest with you here. I feel that is incorrect. The entire point to sever rules is to maintain fairness. 

Again, this is not the case. Server rules exist so that everyone has to play by the same standards. everyone should know what they can or cannot do. that does not mean those standards have to be fair. cops have every advantage over criminals in terms of resources available to them. it is a totally unfair fight. but its designed to be that way. to heavily discourage violence against LEOs and make it so that crims have to play smart and sneaky and can rarely just brute force a win if the cops find them.

All  that being said...i semi agree that having like 4 cruisers pull up to a by the numbers traffic stop is not uncommon in the city and kinda annoying because they are all just sitting there hoping you evade. surely if 1 or 2 cruisers are already on scene the other cruisers would be better served patrolling and seeking out other crime insted of just hoping they can get involved in another partys RP. how exactly we would fix this and implement this in game is beyond me tho. feels like it would have to be commed over police radio.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Quietthecutie

[Buggs]

@Quietthecutie I am not sure why I specifically was replied to... but you are entitled to your own opinion about JB. However I feel it is a way to achieve fairness ICly when things like IA reports and others with the same nature fail. As often times that saves the persons RP on that character that may have been previously ruined by an arrest. This has nothing to do with the RP opportunities. It really is entirely how YOU view the Judicial System, but it can be used for BOTH fairness and RP opps. Meaning... I was not incorrect...

As for the second point you make... rules are as you have stated designed "so that everyone has to play by the same standards". Meaning it would be UNFAIR if we all were able to play with our own rules or to our own standards. No where in my statement did I say that LEO vs Crim was supposed to be fair.

I think we should probably stick to the topic at hand...

[Quietthecutie]

27 minutes ago, Buggs said:

@Quietthecutie I am not sure why I specifically was replied to... but you are entitled to your own opinion about JB. However I feel it is a way to achieve fairness ICly when things like IA reports and others with the same nature fail. As often times that saves the persons RP on that character that may have been previously ruined by an arrest. This has nothing to do with the RP opportunities. It really is entirely how YOU view the Judicial System, but it can be used for BOTH fairness and RP opps. Meaning... I was not incorrect...

As for the second point you make... rules are as you have stated designed "so that everyone has to play by the same standards". Meaning it would be UNFAIR if we all were able to play with our own rules or to our own standards. No where in my statement did I say that LEO vs Crim was supposed to be fair.

I think we should probably stick to the topic at hand...

ok so, I understand why you may feel a general confusion as to the role of JB and as to why you feel like I zeroed in on you. sorry about that, it was not my intention but as I was scrolling through the replies and as someone who spent over a year in JB i just felt like there was a disconnect there between opinion and fact that obligated me to correct it. as many JB players do not frequent forums.

for the first point. JB is all about the ICly interpretation of the law. not about in game fairness, which seems to be what this post is all about. people can complain about how the state law is unfair. this is as universal in the server as it is in real life. but this is how JB handles their RP. by the law, not by how the law should be as per certain factions interpret it. ultimately that is down to the performance of both the prosecution and the defence within the courts and ruled upon by a judge. it is ENTIRELLY RP. and in no way supposed to represent IC fairness. this is why i tried to highlight JB as a vessel for RP ops and not as a bastion of game fairness. it is open to both interpretation and character negligence. therefore its a poor measuring stick for game fairness.

In your second point, theres a divide youre not adressing, which is the difference between factions.

LEO factions are held to the same exacting rules as crim factions, but they have a vastly superior amount of tools at their disposal to accomplish their goals. the inner rules regarding both types of factions as dictated by FM are significantly different. LEOs have access to tracking and forensic mechanics that crims do not. they have the ability to supress and monitor as per their reactionary role within the city. it is categorically unfair. it would require the criminal element to either obtain an overwhelming amount of manpower and resources to level the playing field, or an intense amount of clever play and organisation to overturn. the point i was trying to get to here was if you are trying to take on the cops, you better have alot more under the bonnet than "awh, dude, that was so not fair to play against." thats the whole idea.

I didnt feel the need to involve myself in the entire argument but i did leave a cavaet at the end of my post which you have not referenced which semi advocated for OPs suggestion but was just curious as to how we implemented it. as per many of the forum suggestions we get it sounds great on paper but once you start examing how we might fix it, it gets messy.

Again, this is the forums, and this is where these kind of discussions should take place.  i mean no player any ill will, i have both legal and crim characters, but when we suggest something like this, we should also have respect for what has got us this far, and an idea as to how we can improve. not just general hand waving.

(edit: cleanup and final point)

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Quietthecutie

[SquirtleSquad]

Sorry, to weigh in on this, there is in no way a chance to "balance" out this ratio. The ratio of crim to LEO is already heavily in favor of crims. On Saturday mid-day to night time UTC, when we can see between 250 - 300 players online, of those being LEO, both SD and PD, are in the numbers of 40 on the highend. So that leaves about 210 - 260 non-LEO. I can do the math, but I'm pretty sure you can see it obvious here.

Regarding responses to traffic stops, gang shoot-outs, house robberies, etc, the reaction and awareness for this should be approached from an in-game perspective. You can voice concerns in this forum, and try and raise awareness for this in this forum, but at the end of the day, anything here is OOC, and rarely reflects anything in-game. There are already IC protocols and procedures in place that anyone Supervisory and higher keeps an eye on, but that also depends how many of them are on duty in their respected faction. If you want to see changes, or propose changes, make them IC. There's the gov website for it, there's going to MRPD, or Paleto for this.

If there's a dangerous situation at hand, you bet your ass we're going to want to have the numbers. Particularly when it's gang related, official or not. We don't know what mood people are in today, and what they want to do. We need to be reactive and vigilant.

 

To those saying that LEO's have more to lose than crims, I say, learn to play the life smarter. Learn limitations. There are EXTREME rare instances where we are "10 LEO's on a traffic stop". You want to drive 200 km/h down San Andreas Ave, and are packing heat, don't. That's a good way to get pulled over and bring attention to yourself. You want to be a smart ass to LEO's and come up to them and call them "Pig" and shit talk them, that's a good way to bring attention to yourself. You want to play a hardened criminal, great, but even hardened criminals know when to be friendly for their own sake and safety.

[alexalex303]

16 hours ago, SquirtleSquad said:

Sorry, to weigh in on this, there is in no way a chance to "balance" out this ratio. The ratio of crim to LEO is already heavily in favor of crims. On Saturday mid-day to night time UTC, when we can see between 250 - 300 players online, of those being LEO, both SD and PD, are in the numbers of 40 on the highend. So that leaves about 210 - 260 non-LEO. I can do the math, but I'm pretty sure you can see it obvious here.

The math is obviously flawed. Beyond those that are law enforcement, at least 50% of the rest of the server is fully legal. (doc, md, gov, weazel, etc). The actual number of criminal roleplayers has been going down for years. There was a time when the only choice in the server was mechanic, pd/md and criminal. There is now a large percentage of people that are neither criminals nor law enforcement, and that is good and realistic, but don't use their numbers to pretend they would be an adversary to law enforcement.

Out of those 210 non-LEO people, maybe 50 are gang members, another 40 are random "petty" (as in less organized, less threatening) small-time criminals. This is in addition to the fact that those people, unless organically there, can not back themselves up in any meaningful way. If you raid Underground HQ with 260 "non LEO" on the server, only Underground will be able to fight that, and suddenly, you have SED, SWAT, combined PD SD and sometimes DOC against maybe 30 people (if they're ALL online at once).

I'm not saying it's wrong or unrealistic, law enforcement should have an advantage otherwise we turn into a cartel run state, but, let's not pretend it's something it isn't.

[SquirtleSquad]

21 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

The math is obviously flawed. Beyond those that are law enforcement, at least 50% of the rest of the server is fully legal. (doc, md, gov, weazel, etc). The actual number of criminal roleplayers has been going down for years. There was a time when the only choice in the server was mechanic, pd/md and criminal. There is now a large percentage of people that are neither criminals nor law enforcement, and that is good and realistic, but don't use their numbers to pretend they would be an adversary to law enforcement.

Out of those 210 non-LEO people, maybe 50 are gang members, another 40 are random "petty" (as in less organized, less threatening) small-time criminals. This is in addition to the fact that those people, unless organically there, can not back themselves up in any meaningful way. If you raid Underground HQ with 260 "non LEO" on the server, only Underground will be able to fight that, and suddenly, you have SED, SWAT, combined PD SD and sometimes DOC against maybe 30 people (if they're ALL online at once).

I'm not saying it's wrong or unrealistic, law enforcement should have an advantage otherwise we turn into a cartel run state, but, let's not pretend it's something it isn't.

Based on your numbers here and lets assume it's the average, as I know the numbers are much much higher, that's 90 criminals vs my 40 LEO average. That's a 1.6:1 ratio roughly. @alexalex303 you of all people should know these numbers is much lower. There is in no way that there are 120 legal individuals running around. I would say your numbers need to be a bit higher. The number for gang members is roughly spot on, but the 40 for un-officials or unaffiliated is much more on the lower side. On NA times, the number of gang members is rather low because NA, but the number of non faction gang is about the number you quoted as of late.

The only numbers that might be seen going down are factioned gang numbers but we get tons of people doing crime all the time. However, I think the focus on the number is those committing violent crime. I'm talking criminals in general. I should have clarified that.

[HobGoblin]

Its been suggested before. For something like this to work a ‘rule of 4/5/6’ would have to be implemented. This way limits apply to both sides and make sense. 
 

However I highly doubt this will happen. 

[Lutherian90]

While I would like for something like this to be in effect, there is no way LEOs could know the correct response numbers unless they had metagame knowledge of the situation and the intentions of the person committing the crime. I myself am a petty criminal on my crim character and find it annoying when 10 cops show up to a traffic stop I'm involved in or when I'm unarmed and have ARs pulled on me by LEOs, but at the same time I understand there are limitations in what we can expect in terms of "realism" within GTA RP. Realism can only go so far in this, because we're actively playing a game.