Developer activity, communication & feedback.

[AtlasOLimbo]

While I can understand the desire to push large, significant updates with a team of non-fulltime two developers this is extremely difficult to do and has shown. Updates takes months and months and get delayed for longer. I'd much rather be drip fed smaller updates where things can be ironed out over time than months of polishing on a huge one.

Just looking for thoughts from the community!

Updated/merged thread here.

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by AtlasOLimbo

[Ash]

It's a balance, the reason I think a bunch of people have been annoyed is there's 2-3 large updates going on at once in the background. Back when there was 1 big thing being worked on in the background and smaller more frequent changes and QoL things were added people seemed very satisfied. I think that's the sweet spot to aim for.

[AtlasOLimbo]

6 minutes ago, Ash said:

It's a balance, the reason I think a bunch of people have been annoyed is there's 2-3 large updates going on at once in the background. Back when there was 1 big thing being worked on in the background and smaller more frequent changes and QoL things were added people seemed very satisfied. I think that's the sweet spot to aim for.

Yeah. This. The drug, gun update, etc. Have all been teased but delayed seemingly to work on another. I say this because I can understand getting tired of working on the same update, but it results in nothing getting out the door and large delays between updates. I think this is the best approach.

[Bala]

I'll take what i can get tbh.

[Kommand]

One thing I would say in defense of the developers is that with updates of this magnitude, it's important to do it right. We shouldn't rush the developers because this might motivate them to release an update too early with not enough testing or trials to support compatibility. I hope that these delays are simply a result of extra precautions in the testing phase. Patience is a virtue !

[Clank]

3 hours ago, Bala said:

I'll take what i can get tbh.

[AnakinB]

Honestly all they need to do is hire like 1-2 more devs who can work on smaller projects (bug fixes, QOL, etc.) while the main 2 work on the big ones, they could also just make a testing server where at a certain time the server is open for 1-2 hours where people like donators or staff could go play and game test the update and give feedback

[AtlasOLimbo]

5 hours ago, AnakinB said:

Honestly all they need to do is hire like 1-2 more devs who can work on smaller projects (bug fixes, QOL, etc.) while the main 2 work on the big ones, they could also just make a testing server where at a certain time the server is open for 1-2 hours where people like donators or staff could go play and game test the update and give feedback

This. But for who knows what reason the developers are adamantly against bringing anyone else onboard, fearing leaks. If something leaks, who's going to have the infrastructure to run it? And if they do run it, it's obviously ripped from Eclipse. And Eclipse will retain its players. It's a false fear. But I digress.

[Kommand]

2 minutes ago, AtlasOLimbo said:

This. But for who knows what reason the developers are adamantly against bringing anyone else onboard, fearing leaks. If something leaks, who's going to have the infrastructure to run it? And if they do run it, it's obviously ripped from Eclipse. And Eclipse will retain its players. It's a false fear. But I digress.

Speaking from experience in copyright infringement, there is a lot of the script that we don't see as players. The value isn't so much in the way it's optimized, but in the way it works. A potential rogue developer could easily steal the code, make aesthetic or stylistic changes, and present itself as original. Even an Eclipse knockoff would be better than any RAGE based competing server, and its existence would be an inherent threat to ECRP's interests. The concern is justified in this sense, sure it seems so simple to say it's paranoid but it's not wrong for the devs to be protective. It's intelligent property with intrinsic value. I think the only option that addresses this issue is the idea of an investor developer. An agreement that compensates the developers for the code upfront, and in return allows the third party investor an interest in the project. The current devs would retain rights as 1/3 interest, with options to buy out one or more of the other parties if desired. 

There would be people interested in doing that deal, but they are probably content with current profits. 

[AtlasOLimbo]

8 hours ago, Kommand said:

Speaking from experience in copyright infringement, there is a lot of the script that we don't see as players. The value isn't so much in the way it's optimized, but in the way it works. A potential rogue developer could easily steal the code, make aesthetic or stylistic changes, and present itself as original. Even an Eclipse knockoff would be better than any RAGE based competing server, and its existence would be an inherent threat to ECRP's interests. The concern is justified in this sense, sure it seems so simple to say it's paranoid but it's not wrong for the devs to be protective. It's intelligent property with intrinsic value. I think the only option that addresses this issue is the idea of an investor developer. An agreement that compensates the developers for the code upfront, and in return allows the third party investor an interest in the project. The current devs would retain rights as 1/3 interest, with options to buy out one or more of the other parties if desired. 

There would be people interested in doing that deal, but they are probably content with current profits. 

I can understand this in some ways, and I understand that aesthetic/visual changes can exist but like I said. Who can afford the sunken cost to run all this infrastructure and try and rebuild a community with even a fraction of the numbers Eclipse has? There's also the cost benefit analysis at how much are you willing to inhibit your own product to keep your rather small trusted team in line? There's people like @Bala who have dedicated time to creating entire features that can easily be ported into their codebase, but to no effort from the development team in doing so seemingly.

[Kommand]

4 hours ago, AtlasOLimbo said:

I can understand this in some ways, and I understand that aesthetic/visual changes can exist but like I said. Who can afford the sunken cost to run all this infrastructure and try and rebuild a community with even a fraction of the numbers Eclipse has? There's also the cost benefit analysis at how much are you willing to inhibit your own product to keep your rather small trusted team in line? There's people like @Bala who have dedicated time to creating entire features that can easily be ported into their codebase, but to no effort from the development team in doing so seemingly.

That's a fair point, but I think Eclipse is designed to preclude portions of the player pool out of concerns for quality control. One thing I've noticed with servers that aren't whitelisted or have an easier learning curve is that despite having significantly higher player counts, they are an absolute nightmare to navigate. Rule breaks are the norm, with no real accountability for offenders. IC it's even worse, with unrealistic economies so inflated that you need a calculator to purchase anything. The strategy of strict rules with administrative oversight on both reports and appeals will naturally weed out repeat offenders, but because this protects other players in the process, it's an excellent investment in retaining them. A server's player base can tolerate a lot of neglect in certain areas of development or management, but they will not tolerate being the victim of repetitive rule breaks every time they log in. That's why so many people, even those currently banned like myself, continue to appeal to come back--Eclipse provides an environment where players are free to explore the depths of role play without being RDM'd or otherwise griefed. Sure, rule breaks occur but between /report 4 or the forums, there's an option to demand accountability, and/or compensation from any loss deriving from it. 

Regarding @Bala, I'll never understand what motivates him to go so hard in the paint for criminal QoL and awareness of the issues affecting Eclipse. His reasoning makes sense--what's good for crims is ultimately good for cops. However he seems to also be heavily interested in improving other aspects, like clothing, faction uniforms, etc. so it's unfair to assume he's only advocating for crim content. I'm not sure on the communications or involvement he has with development, but from my understanding there's been a disconnect in the implementation of his ideas. I can't remember specifically what he wrote, but it was something along the lines of his contributions being altered or not fully introduced the way it was intended. Maybe he can shed some light on this?

I'm beginning to rant so I'll finish up by addressing the real inhibitor Eclipse has: new player accommodations. For first timers the script and mechanics of the game can be overwhelming. The tutorial helps a bit, and @Osborn even recently outlined plans to overhaul the tutorial to be more encompassing and helpful. So if that sees implementation we should commend the staff team for uplifting less knowledgeable players because it will do wonders for retention. 

[AnakinB]

3 hours ago, Kommand said:

I'm beginning to rant so I'll finish up by addressing the real inhibitor Eclipse has: new player accommodations. For first timers the script and mechanics of the game can be overwhelming.

Genuinely so true I got lucky to have someone show me around the city when I was a new player but not everyone has that, which is mostly why I had a little soft spot for new players and showed them where all the labs and chops when they were static were if they were interested in that side of the server. 

[Bala]

On 2/5/2023 at 1:53 PM, Kommand said:

Regarding @Bala, I'll never understand what motivates him to go so hard in the paint for criminal QoL and awareness of the issues affecting Eclipse. His reasoning makes sense--what's good for crims is ultimately good for cops. However he seems to also be heavily interested in improving other aspects, like clothing, faction uniforms, etc. so it's unfair to assume he's only advocating for crim content. I'm not sure on the communications or involvement he has with development, but from my understanding there's been a disconnect in the implementation of his ideas. I can't remember specifically what he wrote, but it was something along the lines of his contributions being altered or not fully introduced the way it was intended. Maybe he can shed some light on this?

There's not some deep personal connection to the crims on this server or even a desire to be a criminal on this server. I'd just like to think that I'm switched on to what the server is supposed to be, which is what the founder's original vision for it was. A chill, light, roleplay server. People throw the term cops and robbers around like it's a slur but that's the basis for any GTA roleplay server and a lot of good roleplay can come from that. If you got good shit for cops and good shit for crims, you got a winning server. The civilian stuff is nice for people but honestly, grand scheme of things, that's a side dish.

The more someone enjoys Eclipse, the more they will behave the way the server wants them to behave. That might be when it comes to obeying the rules, that might be their attitude to a losing situation or it might just be being a positive influence around the community. You get enough of that going and the server starts cooking again.

As a cop, the more entertained a crim is on the server, the more I can enjoy myself interacting with them. The more my faction can enjoy interacting with them and likely, the more they can enjoy interacting with us. More crims doing crim stuff means more things for cops to do. Everyone is a winner baby!

In terms of my involvement with development, at most I'm suggesting shit directly or I'm making things to go into the server. I wanted that to be something a little more formal but unfortunately the bureaucracy makes that a no go. You can't be openly critical of people and institutions then expect they are going to sit back and let you do your thing unfortunately, no matter how it might turn out. I've been a bit naive there, because probably if i'd been in the tent pissing out rather than out of the tent pissing in, it would have been received better.

Last year, I went to a bunch of the criminal faction leaders and asked them what they needed. I took the main five things that they came back with to Osvaldon and he was on board with them. Unbeknownst to me, at the same time, the staff team had a discussion with NBDY and those suggestions got implemented instead. That's not to say that what I suggested was right and what the staff team suggested was wrong, it's just clear from what we ended up with, that the two were VERY different.

My mindset, when i'm not downloading mods from GTA5Mods, is to give people what they want in a way that works for as many people as I can and I think with the things that have gone in, I've done that so far. Custom content creation is a passion for me but it's also a great tool for roleplay servers when done right.

[IAmTurtle]

I am pro update what ever the size!

[Smoke1]

Im my humble opinion i think that the people working on these add ons and the team of support staff mods admins are doing an amazing job and cant make everyone happy all the time. Thanks for everything everyone of you do! I agree any update is a good one 

Edited February 8, 2023 by antoniovitto

[AtlasOLimbo]

I'm gonna try and get the easy points out of the way first. Those who even decided to click on this thread are probably already rolling their eyes to the next stadium with "Another one of these?" But bear with me. I believe these kinds of threads should be repeated and brought up again and again, especially if new points can be added to the conversation.

Personally, I've put a hundred plus pounds into the server and it's extremely disheartening to see the state that the development of this server is in. Trying to get a response from Osvaldon and Paulius is like trying to get milk from a rock. And it shouldn't be this way. Osvaldon and Paulius should be active members of the community that can be reliably communicated with in some way, shape or form. I can congratulate them on their recent release of the House Robberies update, and it truly is a good update. But there's major bugs with it that render it unusable in some cases that they've shown no indication that they're even looking into.

Why would someone, especially someone new with little invested into the server, stay if this is the state of development? Yes. You don't need scripts to roleplay. But simple changes, bugfixes, communicating with suggestions and bug reports, so on, isn't difficult. There's also a VALVe like obsession with jumping from one major project to another, and hardly getting any out the door.

I'm going to tag them here and I'm unsure if I'll even get a response, but I might as well go for it.

@Paulius@Osvaldon

Why? What I truly don't understand is why this is happening. And how to prevent it in the future. It's not like this server is hemorrhaging money as a volunteer project. If you go by the discord members and say even, a thousand have the donator role. That's 100k pounds minimum. Yes, over the years the server has been running but that's an extremely low estimate. People still pay for VIP monthly. People are still paying for pets, apartments, plate changes, so on. I don't want the server to die off. I truly don't. But with the sheer resistance from the developers to people who have offered help for free, even giving entire scripts that have just not been implemented whatsoever, I want to understand from their perspective. Why?

EDIT: I understand the usual canned response to this is "they're working, they're just busy." But that does not respond to very many thoughts I've put forward here. I'd like a genuine, thorough conversation on this. No shit slinging, no "PD CAUSED THIS!". Just a civil conversation.

Edited February 28, 2023 by AtlasOLimbo

[tpmzeux]

Thank you @AtlasOLimbo to bring up this topic,

ECRP is actually one of the best servers I've played in, I agree it's frustrating to see the state of development of this server, I appreciate the effort developers put into the server, but I think these days the development team needs to put more effort than before, take a look at the bug reports, updates are not necessary to be major, it might be a weekly small update like fixing that "one shoulder shoot can kill someone" "house robbery alarm bug", I don't see an update being done with new features being added while there are things that need someone to look into, that could mess up more things, and it also can ruin someone's RP because of a small bug that was there, and it has been reported a lot, this is actually my opinion.

I've already seen many suggestions that would make the server better, small changes that would make a big difference, and if there were small features that would make more roleplay, it would be better than major updates.

[Harley]

From what I’ve heard, the primary reason why developers seem to refuse help from those from the community is the fact that they did this once before, and were fucked over by the dude who they trusted. It’s hard to gain that trust with anyone ever again, which is why they don’t like to accept help from others.

 

Doesn’t really explain the lack of communication though.

[AtlasOLimbo]

1 minute ago, Harley said:

From what I’ve heard, the primary reason why developers seem to refuse help from those from the community is the fact that they did this once before, and were fucked over by the dude who they trusted. It’s hard to gain that trust with anyone ever again, which is why they don’t like to accept help from others.

 

Doesn’t really explain the lack of communication though.

There's a tipping point in my opinion where keeping one's self safe due to past experience no longer outweighs allowing developers to assist and improve the server. It's obvious that whatever happened has had no long term impact on the server, no? I could be wrong. But that was before the time where I joined during peak COVID where the server had 600+ players daily. 

[AtlasOLimbo]

Lock & archive this thread in favor of 

 please.

The newer thread has much more thought and effort put into it.

@Ash

[Ash]

Merged with the same topic you made a month ago

[alexalex303]

This server is legitimately the best English voice RP server on RAGE MP. I think that your standards might be too high if we're in a "crisis" or at a "tipping point". Things can always be better, but they can never be perfect. 

[Uzii]

2 hours ago, AtlasOLimbo said:

Personally, I've put a hundred plus pounds into the server and it's extremely disheartening to see the state that the development of this server is in. Trying to get a response from Osvaldon and Paulius is like trying to get milk from a rock. And it shouldn't be this way. Osvaldon and Paulius should be active members of the community that can be reliably communicated with in some way, shape or form. I can congratulate them on their recent release of the House Robberies update, and it truly is a good update. But there's major bugs with it that render it unusable in some cases that they've shown no indication that they're even looking into.

Couldn't agree more. The radio silence from devs and endless teasers with no follow-up for years has just gotten plain weird at this point. ECRP has endless potential but I think a lot of people, especially crims, are moving on for many of these reasons. The house robbery update is cool but it doesn't negate the fact that way bigger updates are still years over due and the fact that other updates (removal of static chops, etc) have actually worsened the state of crim on this server, I can't even imagine being a new player trying to navigate ecrp in its current state

[AtlasOLimbo]

1 minute ago, alexalex303 said:

This server is legitimately the best English voice RP server on RAGE MP. I think that your standards might be too high if we're in a "crisis" or at a "tipping point". Things can always be better, but they can never be perfect. 

I'm not asking for perfection and I'm sorry if it comes off their way. But as you said, things can and I believe should be better. That's what this thread is striving for. 

[Pazz]

50 minutes ago, Harley said:

From what I’ve heard, the primary reason why developers seem to refuse help from those from the community is the fact that they did this once before, and were fucked over by the dude who they trusted. It’s hard to gain that trust with anyone ever again, which is why they don’t like to accept help from others.

 

Doesn’t really explain the lack of communication though.

This has happened twice in the history of the server, I was here both times and both occurrences are not similar to each other but definitely enough to cause distrust when it comes to onboarding new developers. That said, while it is understandable, it is not an excuse. The last time this had occurred, it happened because the developer in question was given full access to the live server, and this access and trust was then misused and abused.

There are ways around that. What they need to do is take the time to implement an infrastructure that allows for additional help. Developers do not need access to the live database or server, they can do their work on a dated copy of the database, or, frankly, they can be given the database structure without any data from the live server and base it on this. I believe they have mentioned that their codebase is done in a specific way that wouldn't really allow for easy help, but then the key word is easy. Frankly, it could be done, the time just needs to be taken to set this up properly. I like to think that with the time in between updates of significant scale as well as the time between any sort of communication, the time to set this up is there. Is the willingness?

We've lost too many talented, skilled developers interested in helping with this server to other communities simply because of an unwillingness to accept their help, or a lack of communication.

That's not even covering the issue of a total lack of communication on feature updates. We know we're supposed to get an update for drugs, weapons, vehicles, clothing, character customization, etc... but, when? Where are they at in terms of progress? The features don't even need to be finished, communication will go an incredibly long way.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Pazz