Criminal Faction Members Cap

[sNo0BbZz]

10 hours ago, Bala said:

underlying reason why Irish or GBK or Shenzhen or even Royals are no longer with us. 

Let me tell you there is a shared reason on why 3 out of 4 of those gangs disbanded, its because of FM. We can sit here and propose faction player limits or whatever. But I honestly think if you want crim to thrive, you need to fundamentally change the way FM treats and interacts with illegal factions. FMs vision of what crim RP should be in eclipse is not a shared vision with the wide majority of long term criminal roleplayers. Simple as that. 

I can go alot deeper into this, but it will probably be off topic for this specific suggestion.

[alexalex303]

I do think there is merit in the fact that some people would like to see more fundamental changes, in my opinion, band aids are good.

This is a change that can be discussed and implemented in less than a few days, if there is strong agreement.

Some of the more drastic changes discussed in this thread (which makes them slightly off-topic) would take months and several community heads.

I am in favor of reducing the faction illegal faction cap the same way it was reduced before, if you have more members than the new cap, you do not have to remove them but you can not recruit new people until you are under it. 

[Requiem]

+1

I agree with some of the other comments that there are larger issues affecting crims on the server that need to be resolved, but as can be seen over the last year or two, those issues clearly won't be resolved immediately. In the mean time, ICA's (bandaids) need to be used to correct the problems, this being a good start while the PCA is established eventually. 

[Glaikit]

On 12/7/2022 at 4:49 AM, Bala said:

-1.

I can understand the reasoning behind the OPs suggestion but to be completely honest, it's merely a short term solution and it would hamstring factions more than anything.

We have four illegal official factions. Rooks (40), Lost (32), Cartel (13) and Rising Suns (24). I don't wish to generalise but none of those factions are what I would consider as aggressive and none of those are necessarily going to squeeze any of the other potential or unofficial factions we currently have beyond an acceptable limit.

The fundamental issue is that being a criminal on Eclipse now, is what being a non-enforcement legal roleplayer was pre-COVID, with little support and no real strategy to improve things any time soon. There is an underlying reason why we have more people in the one law enforcement faction than we do in all the legal factions combined. There is an underlying reason why we have only four official factions. There is an underlying reason why new factions is an issue. There is an underlying reason why Irish or GBK or Shenzhen or even Royals are no longer with us. 

We're just constantly trying to rebuild the same sandcastle but the tide is coming in. Opening discord discussions and running faction initiatives and pushing random updates absent part of a larger strategy while limiting your criminal player base further in ways like this isn't going to have a happy ending. We can tell ourselves everything is fine when we are hitting 200, 250, 300 players but does the player count translate to a fulfilling experience? Are you not entertained?

I genuinely believe this server has all the tools to be the best server on the RAGE-MP platform. I'm not talking just in terms of action or deep, heavy roleplay or player counts or script or community but all those things combined, Eclipse can have the best combination of thrilling action and excitement with sustainable and engaging roleplay with a community that doesn't take itself too seriously and with a script that is user friendly but supportive.

By my estimation, we could turn around the entire criminal scene in about four weeks and we wouldn't have to change much more than a few things to achieve that. The reason that that sounds so simple, is because it is. 

The OP's suggestion though is treating a symptom, not the illness.

 

Last time they listened to your suggestions yall ruined chops, drugs and banks in 1 quick swoop making it even worse to be a crim. -1 on anything he says he just words shit nicely

+1 to 25 cap

Edited December 10, 2022 by Glaikit

[LewE]

-1 

[ShawnsBeard]

-1.

There are already an extraneous amount of OOC limitations placed upon criminal factions on Eclipse RP, and it can certainly be argued that the previous change of reducing the faction member limit from 60 to 40 is one of the biggest reasons that so many criminals/factions have already left the server.  Especially when you consider that a very large portion of the player base is now some version of an LEO, there is already a large strain on all criminal factions when it comes to standing any sort of chance against police.  The general reality of criminal and cop encounters on Eclipse is that if the criminal does not successfully evade a situation where they are involved with the police within a very short period of time, they are almost certainly screwed.  I don't think that police shouldn't be strong and difficult to maneuver around, but my general point is that it is already extraneous and implementing further restrictions on criminal factions would only increase this burden. 

I also disagree with the notion of the lowering limit allowing for more RP, as there are currently rules in place that stint true development/hostility/alliances with other factions.  In my opinion, there needs to be a fundamental change to certain rules and restrictions for criminal roleplay on Eclipse to be enjoyable again, and placing further limitations on the criminal factions will only cause more issues.

[Bala]

8 hours ago, Glaikit said:

Last time they listened to your suggestions yall ruined chops, drugs and banks in 1 quick swoop making it even worse to be a crim. -1 on anything he says he just words shit nicely

+1 to 25 cap

That's an interesting take from someone that has been back, what, two weeks? 

I really wish that what you said was true and that these decisions that have been taken, were my decisions but that's simply not the case. What's actually closer to the truth is that criminals, credible criminals, criminals that weren't banned for example, were invited to share their feedback and ideas on what the criminal side of things need by NBDY in April of this year. Now, having invited those criminals, certain levels of the staff team were also invited to participate in those discussions.

Now unfortunately in the process of those discussions, what the criminals themselves wanted went through the staff team and then NBDY and as a result, we ended up with an end product that it would seem the criminal player base didn't like and it had strayed some what from the original ideas. 

Chops were supposed to be disposable. Public Drug Labs were supposed to be re-added when the apartment labs went away. The hotwiring minigame was supposed to be a lot shorter but put some interactivity into breaking into cars over the RNG system we had. House Robberies were supposed to be done around that same time.  We left quite a bit on the table.

Now, in response to things still not working, I have on my own merit and at considerable risk to myself, continued to push the staff team and developers to make positive changes to the server for criminals. Anyone that is actually in the loop, will know that to be the case. Not even taking my own ideas into consideration and simply taking the ideas from the criminals and giving them straight to the developers. The staff team are sick of having to deal with as a result of this, because I'm constantly arguing with them over stuff like this.

I spoke with Osvaldon directly and there was an agreement in place for certain things to be changed based on criminal feedback before this Christmas. Unfortunately, he then had to take some personal time and NBDY/The Staff Team felt they wanted to go in a different direction which is their prerogative to do. I don't agree with the direction, but at the end of the day, it's the devs server and the staff team is responsible for running it, in good times and bad.

That was a nice shit way of telling you, we didn't get what we originally ordered. If I fucked something up, I'd hold up my hands and then do what I could to fix it. But on this, my conscience is clear.

 

[Phantas]

Groups that hit 40 members quickly disband just as quickly. Groups that take there time to recruit and build a community inside of there gang last much longer. Reducing member cap in other factions won't improve other factions if anything it will drive players away. The more you reduce player cap the more casual players and those who can't grind 24/7 get punished. We saw this happen with the reduction from 60 members to 40. Where before you could have a lot more people in the faction that didn't log in every single day. Where are those people now? Gone. 

L suggestion. If you want more diversity in gangs make a gang that people want to join reducing player cap in gangs is a bandage fix to the real issue being there not being enough incentives to make a gang and manage it. Shits a second job if you want it to be more than just a clap crew. 

[Glaikit]

2 hours ago, Bala said:

That's an interesting take from someone that has been back, what, two weeks? 

I really wish that what you said was true and that these decisions that have been taken, were my decisions but that's simply not the case. What's actually closer to the truth is that criminals, credible criminals, criminals that weren't banned for example, were invited to share their feedback and ideas on what the criminal side of things need by NBDY in April of this year. Now, having invited those criminals, certain levels of the staff team were also invited to participate in those discussions.

Now unfortunately in the process of those discussions, what the criminals themselves wanted went through the staff team and then NBDY and as a result, we ended up with an end product that it would seem the criminal player base didn't like and it had strayed some what from the original ideas. 

Chops were supposed to be disposable. Public Drug Labs were supposed to be re-added when the apartment labs went away. The hotwiring minigame was supposed to be a lot shorter but put some interactivity into breaking into cars over the RNG system we had. House Robberies were supposed to be done around that same time.  We left quite a bit on the table.

Now, in response to things still not working, I have on my own merit and at considerable risk to myself, continued to push the staff team and developers to make positive changes to the server for criminals. Anyone that is actually in the loop, will know that to be the case. Not even taking my own ideas into consideration and simply taking the ideas from the criminals and giving them straight to the developers. The staff team are sick of having to deal with as a result of this, because I'm constantly arguing with them over stuff like this.

I spoke with Osvaldon directly and there was an agreement in place for certain things to be changed based on criminal feedback before this Christmas. Unfortunately, he then had to take some personal time and NBDY/The Staff Team felt they wanted to go in a different direction which is their prerogative to do. I don't agree with the direction, but at the end of the day, it's the devs server and the staff team is responsible for running it, in good times and bad.

That was a nice shit way of telling you, we didn't get what we originally ordered. If I fucked something up, I'd hold up my hands and then do what I could to fix it. But on this, my conscience is clear.

 

Not that interesting, it's just fax. I've played more than enough of this update and it was the reason that I left for 4-5 months, I even made a gang during the update which is more than we can say for you. Now that I'm back, it's somehow gotten worse with the new addition of NO ATTACHMENTS IN SHIPMENTS. Now cops can hear gun shots everywhere! And if you happened to stock pile silencer's you're now a millionaire because of OOC reasons! Yippy!

Good effort at trying to undermine my opinion by discrediting me as a crim though, not sure if you've mixed me up with someone else but I have 1 NRP that's about to be voided in a few days (as it's a year old) in 3000 hours of playing, I've never been banned and I know the rules better than most and partake in highly intense criminal roleplay every day where rules are very easily broken if you don't know what you're doing. But I guess I'm not credible enough, I'm just glad we've got LEO's like yourself involved in the criminal updates. Against my better judgement, I'm making another gang in this climate. Can't wait!

Edited December 11, 2022 by Glaikit

[Bala]

Right, great, you've played on the server but you're making assumptions that somehow I'm to blame for things being the way they are without actually any knowledge of the decision making process or why things are the way they are. There are no attachments in shipments because there was a planned weapon update in November that got pushed back. 

Obviously the update not being released is not a good thing, but it is what it is. Nothing really that anyone but one person can do about it. The weapon update was not something that anyone necessarily asked for to my knowledge, it was just added on spec.

As for your opinion, it was just baseless accusations. What I suggested or some of the other criminals suggested was NOT what we got.

You should be glad that there are people like me willing to consider the other side. I don't have any intention of playing a criminal character, because in part of the way things are but I'm just better suited to cop roleplay. The main reason why I've pushed so hard for criminal updates is because it's in the interest of the cop factions for there to be more crims to interact with and to have them less likely to be doing the sort of things that make playing a cop here a frustrating experience.

You can believe what you want to believe if that makes you feel any better but if you think that anyone is listening to a word that i've been saying, you haven't been paying attention at all.

[Glaikit]

I understand you ain't making the updates, I'm just salty that from what I've seen, a large majority of your original ideas post have been implemented and they may not have been implemented how you intended or expected them but not a single 1 of my friends or allies have ever been contacted about criminal suggestions so obviously it's rubbed me the wrong way. From an outside perspective it looks like LEO's have more say in the crim world when they have little to no experience playing crim and it's frustrating. The only crims that I know of that have been asked for ideas are Irish HC who have also all quit now or worse, made cops (joke). We've gone massively off topic here though (this is about faction cap). I only wanted to wind you up a bit with my original comment but I felt you came for my integrity/knowledge as a criminal player, but I've left knowing more about how things work. Cheers Bala, mwah

Edited December 11, 2022 by Glaikit

[skeletee]

3 hours ago, Glaikit said:

I understand you ain't making the updates, I'm just salty that from what I've seen, a large majority of your original ideas post have been implemented and they may not have been implemented how you intended or expected them but not a single 1 of my friends or allies have ever been contacted about criminal suggestions so obviously it's rubbed me the wrong way. From an outside perspective it looks like LEO's have more say in the crim world when they have little to no experience playing crim and it's frustrating. The only crims that I know of that have been asked for ideas are Irish HC who have also all quit now or worse, made cops (joke). We've gone massively off topic here though (this is about faction cap). I only wanted to wind you up a bit with my original comment but I felt you came for my integrity/knowledge as a criminal player, but I've left knowing more about how things work. Cheers Bala, mwah

I wholly reassure you that opinions are not only being asked of from Irish HC and your comments are unfortunately a little bit ill-informed. Please try to stick to the topic discussion.

[Bala]

16 hours ago, Glaikit said:

I understand you ain't making the updates, I'm just salty that from what I've seen, a large majority of your original ideas post have been implemented and they may not have been implemented how you intended or expected them but not a single 1 of my friends or allies have ever been contacted about criminal suggestions so obviously it's rubbed me the wrong way. From an outside perspective it looks like LEO's have more say in the crim world when they have little to no experience playing crim and it's frustrating. The only crims that I know of that have been asked for ideas are Irish HC who have also all quit now or worse, made cops (joke). We've gone massively off topic here though (this is about faction cap). I only wanted to wind you up a bit with my original comment but I felt you came for my integrity/knowledge as a criminal player, but I've left knowing more about how things work. Cheers Bala, mwah

It's important to consider all sides, particularly with criminal and cop changes. Because you have to consider not just how something will be used by criminals but how cops might be involved in that and vice versa. It's selfish on my part, but I want crim to improve so that PD is more enjoyable. It's not so that I can start or be in a crim faction. It's just that thing of Batman needs The Joker and vice versa. Cop/Criminal are absolutely linked and both are at their best when they are both supported and balanced.

While you or your friends / allies not being contacted yet about those discussions could easily make you feel some type of way (as it would me, if I was you), what I will say is that the criminals that have been asked for their two cents have represented crim very well. It's just that the feedback hasn't really been acted on or listened to. Is it better to be asked and then your answers left there or not to be asked in the first place? To me, they feel more like one and the same.

When it comes to the faction cap, to circle it back, it does just feel like capping factions isn't the problem right now. It's improving crim to the point where people want to make sustainable criminal factions that have a shot of being around long enough where they can get a roster of 20-30 people and get on the tier list.

[Cyrus Raven]

Agree with Bala's first reply on this thread. The bigger issue is fixing state of criminal RP.

 

Likewise, like Alex suggested, you could implement this short-term, since it could easily be lifted if player count and other issues are fixed that motivates criminal players to stick around long-term.

 

I do hope if it is done, that the dev team doesn't lose sight of what the priority right now is. The server is still bleeding out, we need surgery. Band aids might stop the bleeding, but if that's all that's done then by the time everything is fixed you'll have bled out and died.

[Phantas]

3 hours ago, Cyrus Raven said:

Likewise, like Alex suggested, you could implement this short-term, since it could easily be lifted if player count and other issues are fixed that motivates criminal players to stick around long-term.

This is really contradictory. Why reduce player count  for factions when the whole issue is server lacks stuff to keep people here long term invested in the gang environment.  I'll tell you right now your gonna lose more players than gain new gangs that will stick around with this ''solution''. When the first reduction happened from 60 to 40 happened at least turfs got introduced soon after that gave people a reason to play. Right now turfs are just a daily mission you do to maintain and crim as a whole has been in a proper content drought since whatever the last **big** update was which I believe was banks or maybe it was turfs can't remember order they was added. If your making this change it makes no sense to lift the player count once shit is added to make people wanna stick around playing crim long term again, it would be the opposite you reduce it once there is shit worth sticking around for having been added to have gang diversity. 

[DerekDeRose]

Just because your faction doesn't have enough people doesn't mean that cap should be reduced. Adding another restriction on crim side will make the server lose more people. It's not worth having 15 gangs with an average of 15 people in each gang and only 5 active most of the time. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by DerekDeRose

[Melody Frey]

8 hours ago, DerekDeRose said:

Just because your faction doesn't have enough people doesn't mean that cap should be reduced.

Nothing here is about my faction. My faction shouldn't even be brought up in this thread, but I will say that my faction has a fairly high number of members, excellent activity, some of the highest OOC and IC requirements of literally any group on the server, and I've had zero complaints about any of those from Faction Services.

The rest of the comment is valid and fair. I would still rather have 15 gangs with 5 people active most of the time in each over 4 gangs with 10 people active most of the time.

[Phantas]

8 hours ago, Melody Frey said:

The rest of the comment is valid and fair. I would still rather have 15 gangs with 5 people active most of the time in each over 4 gangs with 10 people active most of the time.

• that's now how it works you don't suddenly get existing players to become more active like that by reducing faction caps. If you want that either existing players need new content to keep them engaged or server needs to acquire more new players.

[moment]

I can assure you I didn't see 30 or 40 members online at the same time at most, my time in Shenzen and in Rooks now the most reached was over 20-25 at a time so there's no point capping it when everyone plays at a different timezone.

Edited December 12, 2022 by PhenomenalX

[Zoah]

-1

We don't need any more limitations and tedious shit to deal with as Crims...

[Salvador Rivera]

2 hours ago, Yousef Assad said:

-1

We don't need any more limitations and tedious shit to deal with as Crims...

True and simply words ! 

[Mortem]

225 players are in SD and PD. Some of them have alternate characters in criminal gangs however as the statistics show most of them don't, we can't force anyone to roleplay what they don't want to roleplay but as it stands the sheer disparity of numbers between legal and criminal gangs is the highest it has ever been. 

Would reducing the player cap to 25 really work? How often do you see a gang roll around with 25 active members? 

 

[PoliceMan101]

-1