Criminal Faction Members Cap

[Melody Frey]

So, I know I'm not the only one who has thought this and I've seen the suggestion made on other posts, but quite frankly I've always felt that the criminal faction members cap should be lowered. My initial thought was 25, or perhaps 30. I just wanna give some bullet points as to why this would be beneficial to the server as a whole.

Less criminals per group will always equal to more criminal groups running around. We have three official factions at the time of writing this post, and four unofficial criminal factions that have been stable and ongoing for more than a month. I feel like while that is quite a few, I would love to see more groups flourish because right now; ECRP relies on criminals very, very heavily.

With more gang activity and more groups, we will obviously get more RP coming out of this.
More groups means more fights, more alliances, more activity in parts of town where we see none, and could bring potentially bring back older players and newer players alike.

Lastly, I just want to say that if this were ever implemented; I would like it introduced the same way as before when the 40 person cap was placed. I don't want to see factions be forced to kick people just to be down to that number, I would like them to not be able to recruit until they lowered to that number over time.

What are your thoughts and suggestions to potentially lower the cap? Why would you be against it, assuming you decide to give that -1?

[Jett_J]

+1

Would fix a lot of issues.

There is always a couple "super gangs" and the smaller ones get crushed by them which makes it hard for good quality crim factions to make it official.

The counter argument is that it will be harder for a single faction to do large scale operations because there are less members with varying time zones but I think this would open another gate allowing for opportunities for gangs to work together like you mentioned.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Jett_J

[Fupii]

Pretty simple +1. The 40-man cap could work back when there were 600 players at peak but obviously, we are past these times. Lowering that cap will increase gang activity within the server and takes out the opportunity of having 1-2 stronger gangs with smaller gangs around them purely based on numbers. If this were implemented, I think the backup rule should be revamped, but that is a conversation for later.

[James McGrity]

+1

Another point I would make is that it may increase opportunity for "round the clock" gang activity, rather than the night crew being in bigger gangs and not having enough people to do crime. There may form a new gang in the less populated time zones due to increased opportunity

[hrxvey]

+1 more gangs more fun

[Suspect X]

+1 This would motivate people to make more groups. 

[skeletee]

1+ gang to gang dynamics aside, I think RP is more enriched from smaller groups.

[Melody Frey]

[Comment Redacted]

Edited December 6, 2022 by Melody Frey
Comment I responded to was removed

[NoahG]

+1

[Harley]

-1

The time zone argument I think is the strongest counter to this suggestion. The evenings will just become more quiet, and ECRP will turn further into the "Graveyard shift until 8PM" state that I feel we're moving towards.

ECRP is a community filled with players from all over the world. Timezones make a big difference in activity. Bringing the member cap of criminal factions down to 25/30 would restrict who a faction can recruit mainly due to timezones. If a faction is too diverce in where someone lives OOCly, their numbers and activity would be harshly affected. Got 10 people from the US, 10 people from EU, and 10 people from Asia? Your faction is never going to have 30 people online at the same time. Peak time for EU players may be during the work day for those in the US.

You live in Asia? Sorry we can't recruit you because our faction is mainly filled with people from the US. I just don't see it working. Restricting someone's ability to join a faction strictly on what timezone they live in feels off. Gov Factions aren't restricted on this, in fact they are condoned to recruit more people in different time zones, calling those time zones "Precincts" or "Shift Areas". A faction with 40 members currently will not consistently have 40 people online at once. It may have 20 people online during peak EU times, and 20 people online during peak US times, but we're past the stage where "Super gangs" are a thing.

[Melody Frey]

I think my argument here with the -1 due to time zones is primarily that groups already do this and I don’t see them being effected much. Most groups typically lean into whatever time zone their leader(s) is and show activity around that, and while their may be a few stragglers from that norm; it seems to be every groups main population as it is.

 

I understand the argument, but I’d rather see three groups of ten-fifteen who are different time zones over one group of 40 that could disrupt the ebb and flow of newer groups. I don’t believe it would hurt the server heavily on a long term scale for late night players, I think it might promote the opposite. These players would have a chance to forge newer groups overall.

 

If I have 40 members, and 10 of them are the “night crew” that I barely get to interact with; I’d rather them begin their own faction at those hours and do things they enjoy more and bring the server more RP opportunities. Obviously if a group is at a faction cap, they can’t continue to recruit anyway; but it’ll force them to recruit smarter and want to pick their members a lot more carefully. I think that this should honestly be the norm regardless. You said here that a faction could have 10 different members active in three different time zones at almost all times, and I for one think that those numbers are phenomenal. Ten heads is enough to do any activity on the server easily, and having ten around the clock seems fairly solid to me. 
 

A faction can turn down people for any reason, and I feel like time zones are a lot of that reason already. If a faction can make it work, then that’s fantastic for them, but at the end of the day I don’t believe 40 player factions are healthy in the current climate of the server.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Melody Frey
Spelling error

[XeV]

+1

now for a spicy suggestion. If we drop the cap of illegal factions we should cap legal factions that counter illegal as from what I can tell legal factions have no limit and as of typing this up PD and SD have a combined 225 and I feel they should be capped at maybe 60-75 each somewhere in that ballpark. doing so would make interviews more impactful actually going through and seeing who is the right "fit". People going out of there way to get more knowledge on the job before applying so they can be seen as a better pick. Instead of just learning as you go. (Just a thought) I HAVE 0 CLUE WHAT goes on behind the application process for either faction.

Obviously Timezones are the BIGGEST thing, but if your timezone is just not popping for crim, make it poppin start your own group. I am 100% sure your not the only one feeling the same, but they might be scared of disappointment in trying to make their own thing, and if people see a specific group or a thing get traction during their play time they will gravitate towards you or it

during my PEAK enthusiasm of ECRP I actually quit my job to find a better one that would suit the timezone playtime of the group I was gunning for. 

[hrxvey]

1 minute ago, XeV said:

cap legal factions that counter illegal as from what I can tell legal factions have no limit and as of typing this up PD and SD have a combined 225 and I feel they should be capped at maybe 60-75 each somewhere in that ballpark.

hey man! i don't think this is the place to bring cops into it, maybe make a separate suggestion afterwards if this does happen to be implemented

[MrDisciple]

51 minutes ago, Melody Frey said:

don’t believe 40 player factions are healthy

Why aren't 40 member factions healthy? To be more specific, recently Rooks and LostMC both hit 40. Before that Irish was at 40. What's not "healthy" about these factions? Seems like your arguments here are empty.

 

1 hour ago, Melody Frey said:

but it’ll force them to recruit smarter and want to pick their members a lot more carefully.

The larger factions that have been around recently like D6, Rooks, Irish. Are extremely more harder to join than the smaller factions such as Rising suns, Ballas, Underground. So this point makes absolutely no sense. Anyone could walk right into these small factions but the big ones? No way...

 

1 hour ago, Melody Frey said:

A faction can turn down people for any reason, and I feel like time zones are a lot of that reason already.

People have different time zones, they play at different times. It's a fact. I want to login and have faction members to have fun RP with everytime and lowering factions members just makes that chance lower.

 

 

In real life they're are gangs of 100 and then there are gangs of 1 thousand, on this server that can be reflected with gangs of 20 and gangs of 40. You'll never see 40 members, rarely you'll ever see 50% of that. So there isn't a problem. Forcing gangs to be the same size just OOCly forces you to be weaker ICly. The result will be clap crews going around easily defeating these new tiny gangs. You'll login, and log off quickly bc no one in your tiny gang is on and then when your tiny gang has a fight against the other tiny gang, the one who has best shooters wins. So the crew with all the best shooters in can just go round beaming every single gang.

 

-1

[Melody Frey]

24 minutes ago, MrDisciple said:

Why aren't 40 member factions healthy? To be more specific, recently Rooks and LostMC both hit 40. Before that Irish was at 40. What's not "healthy" about these factions? Seems like your arguments here are empty.

More groups = more RP.
Less groups = less RP.

We have to be realistic with the population of the server at hand in it's current state, not the 600+ players it once had when the rule was implemented. At the end of the day, the server does have some staple factions that are most likely permanent in the server at this point such as Lost and Rooks, but I'm not suggesting that they kick these members; just that they cannot recruit until they are down to the faction limit. Being totally blunt, I have seen multiple factions hit that 40 cap by recruiting people practically new to the server and use them to wipe out smaller gangs in 30+ people zergs. At the peak of ECRP we typcially hit around 300 people some days, specifically Sundays... Obviously I don't believe that ALL of those players belong to these bigger factions while online, but I don't believe it's impossible to see that only having a few powerful 40 man factions while everyone else is in a stale state is healthy.

 

 

31 minutes ago, MrDisciple said:

The larger factions that have been around recently like D6, Rooks, Irish. Are extremely more harder to join than the smaller factions such as Rising suns, Ballas, Underground. So this point makes absolutely no sense. Anyone could walk right into these small factions but the big ones? No way...

I can't speak for RS or Ballas, but Underground has arguably one of, if not the most straining recruitment arch you can go through. Our OOC requirements are extremely high (100k min XP just to be a recruit, clean admin records, faction posting, and even then there are an extreme amount of IC tasks that I've disclose to Faction Services to solely have dedicated characters within the faction) and that has lead to a lot of denials to enter out faction. I believe currently we've denied over 20 people within 45 days.

 

 

36 minutes ago, MrDisciple said:

In real life they're are gangs of 100 and then there are gangs of 1 thousand, on this server that can be reflected with gangs of 20 and gangs of 40. You'll never see 40 members, rarely you'll ever see 50% of that. So there isn't a problem. Forcing gangs to be the same size just OOCly forces you to be weaker ICly. 

Quite frankly, this isn't real life. Some sections of realism do have to be sacrificed for the sake of fun, such as but not limited to the Official path tier system, the fact that criminals run rampant and are consistently using meta vehicles, and the ability to cook drugs without having to look up an irl guide to it. At the end of the day, we're all here for fun. If we rarely see 50% of that 40 man faction, why not split off and create a new faction? I feel as though that mentality should be encouraged to start new things and to have more fun. I don't think the server should be about power or shooting, it should be about roleplay and the ability to do it effectively. Guns and shooting are way too often the first answer to problems in this server, but I feel like that's an entirely different thread.

 

40 minutes ago, MrDisciple said:

The result will be clap crews going around easily defeating these new tiny gangs. You'll login, and log off quickly bc no one in your tiny gang is on and then when your tiny gang has a fight against the other tiny gang, the one who has best shooters wins. So the crew with all the best shooters in can just go round beaming every single gang.

This already happens, but there's a cycle. 
Clap crew comes in (typically after an Official Faction disbands)
Clap crew fights everyone in the city
Clap crew eventually disbands within a month, two, or sometimes three and reforms into a group ready to get back into actual RP.

I think this is more a problem for Faction Services and staff to take note of, as running around killing everyone you can is fairly discouraged in terms of faction lore and is usually looked into pretty quickly. I believe constantly seeking out conflict is typically discouraged overall.

[Zanit]

+1 if you lower caps for gangs more gangs will be created

[hrxvey]

3 hours ago, MrDisciple said:

like D6

d6's roster is, and will continue to be small. the gangs size has nothing to do with how easy it is to join.

[Kommand]

4 hours ago, XeV said:

+1

now for a spicy suggestion. If we drop the cap of illegal factions we should cap legal factions that counter illegal as from what I can tell legal factions have no limit and as of typing this up PD and SD have a combined 225 and I feel they should be capped at maybe 60-75 each somewhere in that ballpark. doing so would make interviews more impactful actually going through and seeing who is the right "fit". People going out of there way to get more knowledge on the job before applying so they can be seen as a better pick. Instead of just learning as you go. (Just a thought) I HAVE 0 CLUE WHAT goes on behind the application process for either faction.

The interview process for SD is already pretty arduous. RED is often understaffed & overworked, which makes the interview process more difficult due to scheduling conflicts & availability. Typically it takes time to conduct, with most applicants not moving past that stage. The unbalanced amount of SD/PD members compared to criminal factions can't be blamed on the interview/application process. The attrition of applicants throughout the several stages of recruiting, training, & certification is very high, and it's engineered that way on purpose--to find who fits. 

The real reason SD/PD have higher numbers proportionally is because being a criminal in current year is just not very fun. The activities available that are enjoyable carry a tremendous amount of risk, and to overcome potential losses, it requires a lot of grinding. Criminals don't road work for 8 hours straight because it fits their IC lore--they do it because of financial necessity. 

Do I think this suggestion would help improve the overall experience of being a criminal? Possibly, as it could create competing factions from the influx of unaffiliated criminals. However, with current Faction Management policies, specifically the Tier system, smaller factions are still at a massive disadvantage even if caps are lowered. The process to Official status and improved tiering is also very demanding, even unrealistic. 

All those things considered, -1. This would be a band-aid on a much bigger problem.

[checkky]

I agree that lowering the criminal faction members cap would be beneficial to the server overall. I think it should be lowered to 25 or 30 members, as that would encourage more criminal groups to form and create more RP situations. I would also be in favor of introducing the cap in a gradual way, so that existing factions would not have to kick members in order to comply.

 

Huge +1

Edited December 7, 2022 by Checkky

[equ1nox_]

I agree that lowering the criminal faction members cap could be beneficial to the server. Having less criminals per group would encourage the creation of more criminal groups, which would lead to more criminal activity and more RP opportunities.

However, I do have some concerns about the potential impact on current criminal factions. Lowering the cap too drastically could potentially lead to the disbandment of some current factions, which could be detrimental to their members and the overall criminal RP on the server.

I would suggest lowering the cap to 25, as you mentioned, and implementing it gradually to allow current factions to adjust and avoid having to forcibly kick members. This would also give newer criminal groups a chance to establish themselves and become more competitive in the criminal underworld.

Overall, I believe that lowering the criminal faction members cap to 25 could be a positive change for the server, as long as it is implemented carefully and with consideration for the impact on existing criminal factions.

Edited December 7, 2022 by equ1nox_

[Jett_J]

4 minutes ago, equ1nox_ said:

I agree that lowering the criminal faction members cap could be beneficial to the server. Having less criminals per group would encourage the creation of more criminal groups, which would lead to more criminal activity and more RP opportunities.

However, I do have some concerns about the potential impact on current criminal factions. Lowering the cap too drastically could potentially lead to the disbandment of some current factions, which could be detrimental to their members and the overall criminal RP on the server.

I would suggest lowering the cap to 25, as you mentioned, and implementing it gradually to allow current factions to adjust and avoid having to forcibly kick members. This would also give newer criminal groups a chance to establish themselves and become more competitive in the criminal underworld.

Overall, I believe that lowering the criminal faction members cap to 25 could be a positive change for the server, as long as it is implemented carefully and with consideration for the impact on existing criminal factions.

I agree with the idea of lowering the criminal faction members cap to 25 as a way to encourage more criminal activity and RP opportunities on the server. This gradual implementation would give current factions time to adjust and avoid having to forcibly kick members, while also giving newer criminal groups a chance to establish themselves. It is important to carefully consider the potential impact on current factions and implement the change carefully to ensure a positive outcome for the server.

[Bala]

-1.

I can understand the reasoning behind the OPs suggestion but to be completely honest, it's merely a short term solution and it would hamstring factions more than anything.

We have four illegal official factions. Rooks (40), Lost (32), Cartel (13) and Rising Suns (24). I don't wish to generalise but none of those factions are what I would consider as aggressive and none of those are necessarily going to squeeze any of the other potential or unofficial factions we currently have beyond an acceptable limit.

The fundamental issue is that being a criminal on Eclipse now, is what being a non-enforcement legal roleplayer was pre-COVID, with little support and no real strategy to improve things any time soon. There is an underlying reason why we have more people in the one law enforcement faction than we do in all the legal factions combined. There is an underlying reason why we have only four official factions. There is an underlying reason why new factions is an issue. There is an underlying reason why Irish or GBK or Shenzhen or even Royals are no longer with us. 

We're just constantly trying to rebuild the same sandcastle but the tide is coming in. Opening discord discussions and running faction initiatives and pushing random updates absent part of a larger strategy while limiting your criminal player base further in ways like this isn't going to have a happy ending. We can tell ourselves everything is fine when we are hitting 200, 250, 300 players but does the player count translate to a fulfilling experience? Are you not entertained?

I genuinely believe this server has all the tools to be the best server on the RAGE-MP platform. I'm not talking just in terms of action or deep, heavy roleplay or player counts or script or community but all those things combined, Eclipse can have the best combination of thrilling action and excitement with sustainable and engaging roleplay with a community that doesn't take itself too seriously and with a script that is user friendly but supportive.

By my estimation, we could turn around the entire criminal scene in about four weeks and we wouldn't have to change much more than a few things to achieve that. The reason that that sounds so simple, is because it is. 

The OP's suggestion though is treating a symptom, not the illness.

 

[moment]

@Bala

Couldn't be more factual, the problem doesn't rely on the member cap that is making less gangs to be created. It's the current restrictions and how certain activities are taking place.

Thanks for pointing it out as always, Bala.

 

[Salvador Rivera]

On 12/6/2022 at 5:33 AM, Melody Frey said:

With more gang activity and more groups, we will obviously get more RP coming out of this.
More groups means more fights, more alliances, more activity in parts of town where we see none, and could bring potentially bring back older players and newer players alike.

 

I'm not against than we should have more Gangs , Family or other type of Organisations but the thing is you already say what you want '' Clapping and fighting '' 

There is a thing than these people should first learn Roleplay and remember this is NOT GTA V Online DM server where they go and Rob everyone who they see on the street .

 

What I see only people who left server is because someone didn't let them clap others 24/7 , people who love Roleplay don't like that . 

 

In past few weeks some new Family's show up in Los Santos and they are doing really cool and interesting Roleplay with out shooting and bullshit and non RP things what we can see on our streets everyday . I would like to see more like these family's

 

Also sad to see than no one can't handle any OG gang or build it . 

[MrDisciple]

+ 1 To Bala's comment

- 1 To Melody's