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Charlie Mchoe

Lethal Force

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Yeah, so like anyone saw the recent video of the LAPD cop shooting at a dude with a bike lock and killing him, as well as the 14 year old girl (fatally) in the dressing room behind the dude? (side note: the LAPD fucking sucks.)

The realism argument doesn't really work here. LAPD causes needless death on stuff that doesn't require lethal force aaaall the time. With that being said, drive-by shootings, taking tires etc is pretty unrealistic for the most part as even LAPD wouldn't do that. I do think that if you're running around with a gun, or you do anything other than not immediately following a cop's orders (especially on foot, especially if they've got a gun on you), then you being shot should seriously not be surprising, especially if we're trying to portray a realistic American police force.

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1 hour ago, Kieran Horn said:

This server doesn't have the checks and balances that IRL does. We don't have a court system, we barely have a fair IA system. Because of that, other measures have to be taken to curb wonton destruction from cops. 

Cops IRL rarely get charged, so the court system thing is pretty equivalent! As for a fair IA system...well, people do get suspended, and sometimes fired,.. uh, and that's all that happens. Just like American cops!

I am getting a little preachy here, sorry. Yeah, server rules are in place to stop DM and whatnot - if you feel like something has broken the rules, you are free to report on the forums OOCly.

I think most issues are dealt with quite well on a case-by-case basis, seriously guys - when cops are ICly punished here, it can derail genuine months of effort. People complain that cops don't have anything to lose and crims do, but cops seriously do have shit to lose. It derails promotions which allow access to cooler stuff to do, it can outright prevent you from progressing past a certain point, and I have seen people straight up quitting (the faction/the server) due to hitting this obstacle.

Papadakis has explained quite well how the escalation tends to go to the point where shots are fired from cops, and as Bala mentioned, the force continuum here is really quite strict compared to LAPD's (the server's IRL counterpart).

My point is, if you have an issue with a situation, feel free to ICly report or OOCly report as appropriate. Last time I checked, both IA and the staff team were genuinely quite good at handling cases/reports.

by the way, it's wanton, not wonton. Wonton is something delicious.

Edited by SaltyPython
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I believe our policy of shooting in PD is too liberal compared to Real Life, there were times when DOC used policies of guards having to be nice to everyone even if you are getting attacked or knifed, this was an issue, and if we follow the same path with PD, it's going to be madness, you forget one thing that most officers IRL and in game here are not really trained to deal with suspects having guns or not, I remember a guy did animation of pulling a gun or something on me and my partner, he got shot immediately. In my country cops say one phrase ''First you shoot, then tell them to surrender'' and watching Youtube like MrSassy (If you are not 18 years old be advised on graphic content there) you can see that LA cops shoot you even if you are unarmed and trying to run away or act aggressive towards them. 

By the way Happy New year and I hope this year is going to be great for you guys 🙂 

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32 minutes ago, Frezas said:

there were times when DOC used policies of guards having to be nice to everyone even if you are getting attacked or knifed, this was an issue

This is not true, at least in the 2 years I've been there.

It's just expected people act realistic with the level of force used and heavy punishments are ICly issued for those that misuse it. But IC guidelines for DOC specifically dictate you can respond appropriately if you're getting attacked or knifed, outside of that if you draw a weapon on someone who's just chatting shit for example then it's just poor roleplay of that specific role (in general, there's obviously exceptions).

That being said it's a poor comparison to compare DOC and PD/SD in this because the line is much clearer for DOC I would say as there's less situations where a decision would be difficult.

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The main problem is, that a cop shooting a hostage for example, or unloading his rifle into the back of an unarmed suspect would have a real consequence. This would be at least fired from the police, and more common a jail sentence. Yes mistakes happen, but thats why you are supposed to be extra cautious especially with civilians around. Letting the person escape is not an option for you, when in real life for example they won't even pursue a high speed chase in the city because of public risk! Sometimes you guys have to think about your surroundings before instantly just gunning someone down to get the W.

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I think the comparisons we have seemingly moved on to between real-life situations and ones in game is moving away from the point.

The issue I have with LEO vs Crim shootings is that there is, naturally, a desire on both sides to win. Speaking from a mainly LEO perspective I think there is a duty on LEO's to uphold realistic standards that one would expect from an LEO. Use of a force continuum and use of proportionate force to respond to situations is what is instilled into the PD and SD handbooks. These have been and are not foreign concepts and are somewhat trite in LEO RP. The almost animistic desire for some to win in situations both LEO and criminal however is perhaps the deeper issue here. It is not possible to entirely prevent misuse of force like the OP has posted. However, there are and rightfully should be recourse IC or OOC for those that have been wronged. If you have IC or OOC complaints about the use of force you can utilize IA, the Courts or, where appropriate, the forum reports section on the forums.

People sometimes miscalculate a situation or make a mistake - we are all human. We all have a responsibility to strive for good RP quality and the use of force is not separate from this concept. I personally have undertaken actions in SD to try and ensure we hot up on use of force issues and explore them with the SD faction members to provide not only assurance we are on top of the issues but to try and ensure that where use of force issues arise we deal with them as appropriate. There is for the criminal populous a mass amount of time and effort put into gaining assets that they obtain in comparison to LEO's. That being said, LEO's have a responsibility to as best as possible within the remit of the server and GTA to represent a government law enforcement agency. This is exactly why SD and PD have IC and OOC policies in place to try to guard against misuse of force and we all are subject to the rules of the server. Fairness is the goal: our responses to situations whether criminal or LEO should be as far as possible realistic, proportionate and justified.

There is in the server (to coin a ever popular 'forum phrase') a state of play where there is much of an us and them culture between LEO's and criminals. We both rely on each other for roleplay and should strive to solve issues that affect us all in the most transparent and effective ways possible. I am more than willing to speak to anyone in PM's who would like to discuss the SD's use of force policies or anyone that would like to enter into a discussion around these issues. 

 

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I'll circle back to my argument in another thread that people want to hold onto realism when it suits their argument, but when it doesn't, they'll say it's a game.

We have a force matrix to follow IC and we also have server rules on deathmatching OOC. Both of those were thought up and ultimately enforced by the highest levels of administration on the server. To an extent, what any of us think it should be is irrelevant since it's their rules we're playing to.

If someone breaks the force matrix, it does get handled in-character and it is something that PD takes seriously. I know that for a fact because I suspended like six people at once for doing it a few months back. To say we don't starts to get a little bit insulting.

But at the same time, this is a server where everyone robs a bank with a BF400 before heading for the nearest mountain and every criminal drives maximum speed everywhere. I'm not really sure what you want from a police department in that kind of server. 

If we go the realism route, then people will get shot more.

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1 hour ago, Destuin said:

Looks like they were opening fire at legion square as well? (city parking)

I can tell you that this type of driving is considered to be public endangerment, so police should use lethal force to avoid possible casualties across the whole city. But this is my first time as PD officer seeing someone getting shot without a warning or anything, so maybe you showed them aggression before video was taken ? (Just a question, no offense intended)

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16 hours ago, Frezas said:

I can tell you that this type of driving is considered to be public endangerment, so police should use lethal force to avoid possible casualties across the whole city. But this is my first time as PD officer seeing someone getting shot without a warning or anything, so maybe you showed them aggression before video was taken ? (Just a question, no offense intended)

Why would he post the video here if he was aggressive previously? (just a question, no offense intended) 

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42 minutes ago, TheCactus said:

You're showing some extreme examples that don't portray how these factions really act or should act. I suggest you submit IA reports for poor roleplay standards, forum report or both.

Just kinda weird that those "extreme" examples include senior police officers....

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3 hours ago, Jonaseriksen07 said:

Why would he post the video here if he was aggressive previously? (just a question, no offense intended) 

I am just saying, that things might have escalated that's why PD used force, sometimes it happens. But all in all, as part of PD, I don't believe we use it a lot. Sometimes I have seen officer or deputies using overall too much force, but can't really judge as I had made mistakes myself. 

Be advised for graphic content, but this is what happens when you act aggressive or disregard what is being said to you from PD. 

Edited by Frezas
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1 hour ago, Frezas said:

I am just saying, that things might have escalated that's why PD used force, sometimes it happens. But all in all, as part of PD, I don't believe we use it a lot. Sometimes I have seen officer or deputies using overall too much force, but can't really judge as I had made mistakes myself. 

Be advised for graphic content, but this is what happens when you act aggressive or disregard what is being said to you from PD. 

This officer only opened fire from his vehicle because the people in  the car opened fire on him, this makes complete sense, however I do not think he would've done this for going in the in correct lane for a short while.

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1 hour ago, hrxvey said:

This officer only opened fire from his vehicle because the people in  the car opened fire on him, this makes complete sense, however I do not think he would've done this for going in the in correct lane for a short while.

Ohhh no no no, all I am saying that as you can see cops sometimes open fire in situations that are literally dangerous to themselves or any other civilian. 

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3 hours ago, Frezas said:

Ohhh no no no, all I am saying that as you can see cops sometimes open fire in situations that are literally dangerous to themselves or any other civilian. 

That is legit what we are saying as well, and it's nothing wrong doing that. However, we believe that cops should not instigate a firefight like that in our opinion. OFC if the officers are getting fired upon then they should return fire.

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There are other ways to display lethal force than shooting.
If you ram a PD car in a chase, you'll get demands to stop. If you don't, you'll get your tires taken.

If people are trying to kill people out right in these situations then that's obviously wrong but 99% of the times i've been involved in these kinds of situations, it's been to take tires and disable the vehicle.

That shouldn't be taken away but at the same time, if you're going for a lethal option as a cop and you don't have DM rights, then you should recieve a punishment like any other player. As a cop on the server, it's actually a lot easier not to get a DM because we have the server rules AND our own rules.

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