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Charlie Mchoe

Lethal Force

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Police use Lethal force way to often and it's just not realistic at all.

 

Lethal force should only be used if a threat is opposed to the police in my opinion. Simply shooting the criminal just because they can't catch them doesn't seem realistic at all.

 

I would like to hear other peoples opinion on this from both the Police and Criminal side of the server.

 

(I'm not a real police officer so I don't know what would allow them to shoot at someone. Some things I say might not be 100% true)

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+1 lethal force should be a last resort to use when they feel there life is at threat, not simply because someone is escaping and they can just BLS them back. No doubt soon enough a bunch of PD officers will come here saying its IC, and they have IC rules relating to it.

Staff seem to be very fair these days in punishing PD for shooting people where they shouldn't. I would say defo save your POV and post reports, as staff are starting to issue them NRP and DM punishments. Hopefully next we can get them solving NRP reports for there ridiculous ramming protocols (a different topic for a different day).

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I do understand your point of view but from PD perspective, there's a "checklist" before the situation gets escalated to a point that police has to shoot.

For you it's simply a spam of megaphone and then "oh they shot me"  First of all, Criminals should actually pay some attention to what it's being said on the megaphone.

I can give you a small demonstration.

 

Normal Pursuit.

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The officer pulls you over.

The criminal starts evading while he drives on the highway, on the correct lane of traffic without causing issues.

The officer demands you to Pull over or they will use force.

The pursuit continues, maybe the criminal escapes or maybe he gets arrested.

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Dangerous Pursuit.

The officer pulls you over.

The criminal starts evading while he drives on the opposite lane of traffic, on sidewalks, cutting through alleys, intersections, populated areas.

Gets on the highway, drives in the incorrect lane on the highway.

The officer demands you to Pull over or they will use force, gets permission and performs PIT.

 

The criminal starts ramming the officers, has no sign of stopping, 

The officer demands you to Pull over or they will use force, gets permission and rams you to stop you.

The pursuit continues, maybe the criminal escapes or maybe he gets arrested.

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High Risk Pursuit

The officer knows you are armed and you just evaded an armed robberry. Pulls you over.

The criminal starts evading while he drives on the opposite lane of traffic, on sidewalks, cutting through alleys, intersections, populated areas.

Gets on the highway, drives in the incorrect lane on the highway.

The officer demands you to Pull over or they will use force, gets permission and performs PIT.

The criminal starts ramming the officers, has no sign of stopping, 

The officer demands you to Pull over or they will use force, contacts METRO assistance.

METRO arrives and request pursuit priority, all units move away and let's METRO as the first unit.

METRO issues lethal demands about 4-5 times. "Pull over or Lethal force will be used"

The criminal ignores the demands, has no sign of stopping, continues to evade.

METRO gets permission to open fire, they shoot directly at your tires.

The pursuit ends.

This technique is only to be used on suspect's vehicles with the intention of immobilizing the vehicle by taking its tires, or in an active deadly threat to life situation, to immobilize the threat completely. For this technique to be used, if not posing as an active deadly threat, the suspect must have demonstrated an extremely reckless demeanor that could potentially cause serious injury to property and/or injury to life.

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BIG +1, these guys will open fire anywhere and everywhere. Seen it happen too many times on a "realistically populated highway". Or a "realistically populated area". The things that seem to only come into account when crims do these things. I believe they need a more valid escalation than someone "potentially having a gun". If they arent posing a threat to you with said gun why are you attempting to end things so quickly? Enjoy the chase man, lighten up. I also find its too often abused by officers to instantly shoot and injure you, knowing that a BLS command can save you. Realism or not, that just makes no sense that you could save every persons life that you shoot. They need to put a value on life a bit more.

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7 minutes ago, Papadakis said:

Dangerous Pursuit.

The officer pulls you over.

The criminal starts evading while he drives on the opposite lane of traffic, on sidewalks, cutting through alleys, intersections, populated areas.

Gets on the highway, drives in the incorrect lane on the highway.

The officer demands you to Pull over or they will use force, gets permission and performs PIT.

 

The criminal starts ramming the officers, has no sign of stopping, 

The officer demands you to Pull over or they will use force, gets permission and rams you to stop you.

The pursuit continues, maybe the criminal escapes or maybe he gets arrested.

 

I agree with pitting. However I seem to keep getting in situations where all I'm doing is evading, not ramming and I start taking fire by many police officers where eventually my vehicle would stall.

 

Most of your intenseness have "The criminal starts ramming the officers" which I personally haven't done or haven't seen anyone in a long time.

 

 

https://streamable.com/uafea4 Here is a situation, the player was simply trying to evade. Officers had permission to PIT but after one small demand "Stop now" every officer starts shooting the car. This happens pretty regularly and it's just honestly getting annoying.

 

PD/SD also do not acknowledge the countless civilians that would be around the city/highway, this is clearly shown by the recklessness of the shooting at most of the scenes. 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Bala said:

Fully disagree. If anything, our force continuum is the pussy version of the real LAPD force matrix so can't really use the realism argument.

IDK I just don't think LAPD would ever choose to ram and do huge shootouts in the middle of a busy city/highway which should be highly populated. The civilian casualties would not be worth it, cus obvs it would be hella civilian casualties.

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18 minutes ago, Charlie Mchoe said:

PD/SD also do not acknowledge the countless civilians that would be around the city/highway, this is clearly shown by the recklessness of the shooting at most of the scenes. 

 

 

This point is amplified by how PD drives during chases in the city, showing no effort to maintain proper lanes, mounting sidewalks or medians at will, destroying city property (signs, bollards, grass lawns, street signs and traffics lights) or even driving in oncoming traffic regardless if the criminal who is evading is also performing these actions. More often than not PD actually causes in-game collisions during these chases.

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Just a disclaimer - this is not to say that we're changing how we're enforcing anything or have enacted a new policy, nor am I speaking on behalf of any policies or other staff members, but we have seen movement in a direction where we're holding more people accountable for unrealistic actions even if it's based around the force continuum. A police handbook does not negate whether or not someone's actions are realistic. If your handbook said you can shoot anyone you know has an illegal gun on them regardless of whether or not they're an active threat, that wouldn't save you from server rules. A few players have already been punished by or warned about this.

While yes this can be handled by IA, IA does not account for whether or not the actions of a player make realistic sense. Everyone is held to the same rules, but some have admittedly gotten away with a different standard. We're doing our best to demonstrate that standard being the same for ALL players within the context of the situation and character with every change we push. Please hold us accountable and speak with the appropriate points of contact to report anything you suspect as bias or otherwise questionable treatment. Please be prepared to provide proof and ample reasoning as to why you believe this. All section heads & assistant heads can be seen here on our roster. Follow this chain of escalation: Assistant Head of X, Head of X, Head Administrator. I think it goes without saying, but this means you move upwards in that order depending on whether or not the previous one has not answered you within 48 hours or if you need to report someone within those positions.

Hold us accountable and improvement will follow.

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53 minutes ago, Bala said:

Fully disagree. If anything, our force continuum is the pussy version of the real LAPD force matrix so can't really use the realism argument.

Then so are our crims.

The frustration sets in from watching so many players catch NonRP warnings or punishments from this type of behavior only to have it explained away for PD/SD as "IC issues".

It wasn't long ago that PD and SD declared war on crime and began running around with micros...which is fine. But it should be an IC issue when PD/SD are getting smoked at will all the same.

 

Again, I don't believe restricting PD or SD is the answer here but the frustrations are certainly warranted to some extent.

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46 minutes ago, Jonaseriksen07 said:

IDK I just don't think LAPD would ever choose to ram and do huge shootouts in the middle of a busy city/highway which should be highly populated. The civilian casualties would not be worth it, cus obvs it would be hella civilian casualties.

I partially agree with this. Unless actively being fired upon, in my opinion there is no reason for us as LEOs to open fire on any vehicle or it's tires inside city limits. On highways, it's a bit of a different story, but it's still considered a last resort if the vehicle being pursued has either exercised lethal force itself or endangered the public to a level where the need to stop the vehicle outweighs the potential public endangerment.
If it's done outside of these limitations, it perhaps should be investigated ICly as our protocols are pretty strict as they are. 

 

Even OOCly, our force continuum is laid out in a way where it can't really ever be unrealistic or any breach of server rules if you actually follow it. If you don't, that's your fault and it's perfectly fair for OOC or IC punishment to follow as it should. You have the tools to hold LEOs accountable for their actions both ICly and OOCly. 

Edited by DoTo
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3 minutes ago, DoTo said:

I partially agree with this. Unless actively being fired upon, in my opinion there is no reason for us as LEOs to open fire on any vehicle or it's tires inside city limits. On highways, it's a bit of a different story, but it's still considered a last resort if the vehicle being pursued has either exercised lethal force itself or endangered the public to a level where the need to stop the vehicle outweighs the potential public endangerment.
If it's done outside of these limitations, it perhaps should be investigated ICly as our protocols are pretty strict as they are. 

Agreed however, it should also be a general OOC rule as well PD/SD should not be in a position where they can open fire first at these places. In my opinion, it is completely unrealistic for people that are hired to protect and serve to endanger civilians in that manner.

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1 hour ago, Jonaseriksen07 said:

IDK I just don't think LAPD would ever choose to ram and do huge shootouts in the middle of a busy city/highway which should be highly populated. The civilian casualties would not be worth it, cus obvs it would be hella civilian casualties.

This is common sense, no police force would deliberately put civilians and property at harm for no reason. Los Angeles used to be called the bank robbery capital of the world in the 80s, and statistics show that a bank was robbed every other hour of every day during that time, and in a span of 10 years around 18,000 bank retail branches were robbed. The North Hollywood Bank Shootout changed the way the LAPD was equipped, 11 officers were shot, as well as 7 civilians, only the robbers were killed - up to that moment a regular squad car of the LAPD was not equipped with any heavy weaponry, a shotgun or rifle per say, after that they were. Two bank robbery suspects fired around 11,000 armor piercing rounds in 44 minutes, in Hollywood, during a bank robbery, in broad daylight, imagine that. What that tells you is that every police force is a reactive force, an increase of bank robberies asked for better equipment and more manpower - exactly how it operates on the server, if you rob a lot of banks with bikes, the police will bring bikes into their fleet eventually and be prepared next time. You shoot at the police during a pursuit, the police will start shooting back - you commit felonies that endanger others, the police with make sure you do not put anyone else in danger by their means, lethal force being an option. Rarely, and I say this out of experience, will you be shot at instantly just by driving away from a bank robbery, this sounds like an over dramatized version of the way your were arrested. The LAPD does ram, and the LAPD has been in huge shootouts before in highly populated areas - have they instigated them? Probably not. Was this a response to how the suspects behaved and the crimes they committed? Most likely. Realism is something both parties have to work on together to achieve, I do not find it realistic that I have to respond to 3 bank robberies within the span of a few hours with 12 robbers fleeing on bikes afterward because its an easy getaway, how often do you see this in real life?

 

 

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9 minutes ago, kris giggs said:

This is common sense, no police force would deliberately put civilians and property at harm for no reason. Los Angeles used to be called the bank robbery capital of the world in the 80s, and statistics show that a bank was robbed every other hour of every day during that time, and in a span of 10 years around 18,000 bank retail branches were robbed. The North Hollywood Bank Shootout changed the way the LAPD was equipped, 11 officers were shot, as well as 7 civilians, only the robbers were killed - up to that moment a regular squad car of the LAPD was not equipped with any heavy weaponry, a shotgun or rifle per say, after that they were. Two bank robbery suspects fired around 11,000 armor piercing rounds in 44 minutes, in Hollywood, during a bank robbery, in broad daylight, imagine that. What that tells you is that every police force is a reactive force, an increase of bank robberies asked for better equipment and more manpower - exactly how it operates on the server, if you rob a lot of banks with bikes, the police will bring bikes into their fleet eventually and be prepared next time. You shoot at the police during a pursuit, the police will start shooting back - you commit felonies that endanger others, the police with make sure you do not put anyone else in danger by their means, lethal force being an option. Rarely, and I say this out of experience, will you be shot at instantly just by driving away from a bank robbery, this sounds like an over dramatized version of the way your were arrested. The LAPD does ram, and the LAPD has been in huge shootouts before in highly populated areas - have they instigated them? Probably not. Was this a response to how the suspects behaved and the crimes they committed? Most likely. Realism is something both parties have to work on together to achieve, I do not find it realistic that I have to respond to 3 bank robberies within the span of a few hours with 12 robbers fleeing on bikes afterward because its an easy getaway, how often do you see this in real life?

 

 

We are not talking about fleeing from a bank heist nor showing or using any weapons. We are talking about PD/SD starting to shoot/ram at highly populated areas where it does not make sense whatsoever to do so.

 

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3 minutes ago, Jonaseriksen07 said:

We are not talking about fleeing from a bank heist nor showing or using any weapons. We are talking about PD/SD starting to shoot/ram at highly populated areas where it does not make sense whatsoever to do so.

 

I for a fact know the Los Santos Police Department will not shoot at you, or ram you in highly populated areas unless completely justified. Los Santos is based off the Greater Los Angeles area which is densely populated on its own, a higher-ranking officer or supervisor will make the call whether it is justified to ram or shoot in a tactical situation in a given area, and officers will return fire when shot at when it makes sense. When does it make sense to you for us to shoot back or ram? You will almost never see a rifle being shot at full auto at the pier with fishers around because it does not make sense. I am giving very specific arguments to statements that are very broad and vague which I should not, but speaking from internal protocol, and a logical side, your roleplay will never be ruined unless a rule is broken.

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3 minutes ago, kris giggs said:

I for a fact know the Los Santos Police Department will not shoot at you, or ram you in highly populated areas unless completely justified. Los Santos is based off the Greater Los Angeles area which is densely populated on its own, a higher-ranking officer or supervisor will make the call whether it is justified to ram or shoot in a tactical situation in a given area, and officers will return fire when shot at when it makes sense. When does it make sense to you for us to shoot back or ram? You will almost never see a rifle being shot at full auto at the pier with fishers around because it does not make sense. I am giving very specific arguments to statements that are very broad and vague which I should not, but speaking from internal protocol, and a logical side, your roleplay will never be ruined unless a rule is broken.

From my and most other criminals personal experience contradict most of the things that you just said and I know for a fact that most criminals can agree with that.

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34 minutes ago, Jonaseriksen07 said:

From my and most other criminals personal experience contradict most of the things that you just said and I know for a fact that most criminals can agree with that.

Most of your personal experiences, I can only assume, consist of robbing banks and fleeing, and shooting at police which is why you get a similar, and painful result every single time. There are in-character means of reporting officers for using excessive force which this thread boils down to, I try to give you valid arguments and you return with a stereotype that is very common around the community, a false one. You're not always right, neither am I, but you are making no sense with your arguments right now, while I go out of my way and provide concrete examples to your vague assumptions. Most criminals can agree on things most cops can disagree with and this is why we can not have a productive conversation if you point fingers instead of trying to sit down and fix things.

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1 hour ago, kris giggs said:

Most of your personal experiences, I can only assume, consist of robbing banks and fleeing, and shooting at police which is why you get a similar, and painful result every single time. There are in-character means of reporting officers for using excessive force which this thread boils down to, I try to give you valid arguments and you return with a stereotype that is very common around the community, a false one. You're not always right, neither am I, but you are making no sense with your arguments right now, while I go out of my way and provide concrete examples to your vague assumptions. Most criminals can agree on things most cops can disagree with and this is why we can not have a productive conversation if you point fingers instead of trying to sit down and fix things.

Okay, I have never robbed a bank don't need to. Shooting cops, I have done but 90% of it it's due to the police shooting at me and I have never started a fight with PD/SD at a place that should be considered a highly-populated area. 

Secondly, you gave me an argument that I did not find any value from as the example, and most of the stuff you talked about was argued around bank robbery which I stated that we are not talking about here. Why you are going on and on about that I have no idea. However, I tried to tell you that we are not talking about that and attempted to have a grown-up discussion over the argument that you have had. Calling me stereotypical I find it a little disrespectful, to be honest.

Also, my examples do make sense due to me checking with other current and previous criminals before posting. As far as I can see you are the one not making good arguments so far all your arguments has not been relevant whatsoever to what we are actually talking about here.

So far no one has been pointing any fingers, I have only been talking about mine and other criminals' previous experiences that we do not agree with. I have not menged any names nor am I planning to. 

Edited by Jonaseriksen07
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I don't like the arguments of "well, RPly there would be people there" because it gets to a point where people are starting to make up their own rules as they go. How can someone say where fictional NPCs would be or not be as justification to punish someone? 

End of the day, we don't PIT in heavy built up areas and we escalate to disable vehicles when they are ramming or doing whatever. There's a surprising amount of restraint that normally goes into these situations. Not 100% all the time of course because people fuck up, but most times, people do it by the standards set.

I think the frustrations of some of you towards PD/SD is misguided in all honesty and often we're seen as the enemy because the prison experience isn't rewarding and because we follow slightly different rules to you guys. But that's not our fault, we do what we can with what we have.

Someone brought up about that criminals and punishments for shooting and I'll keep it a buck on that, the staff team has a scuffed attitude to criminal violence and I do sometimes wonder what server they think this is. I think being an active criminal faction has become almost impossible to play here now without getting yourself punished for something and it can feel like the game is rigged at times, for people who enjoy that part of the action. 

We have seemingly traded the unpredictability of 2019's Eclipse where things admittedly were borderline out of control but exciting to 2021's Eclipse where we seem to have put on our pyjamas, settled by the fire for the night and we have to fill out a ten page application before someone gets smoked. Then we wonder why the fun has gone.

I got no problem with criminals trying to get away or trying to end me personally, they doing what they are supposed to do. I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing by trying to catch them. That's the purest version of criminals/cops. You try something, if it don't work, take the L and get them next time. There ends up being a lot of back and forth on these threads but people miss the point, crims and cops, we fuckin' need each other to make this shit work. I need you to be a criminal to do my stuff. 

All I want is to get my RP in, enjoy some action, have a laugh and log off. I think that's the experience EVERYONE wants that plays here. 
But how many of us now are constantly worrying about getting reported every time we do so much as sneeze in the server right now.

 

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3 hours ago, Bala said:

I don't like the arguments of "well, RPly there would be people there" because it gets to a point where people are starting to make up their own rules as they go. How can someone say where fictional NPCs would be or not be as justification to punish someone? 

Crims are held to these standards though, every action we do we have to think of how many "invisible" people would realistically be there. Crims have to follow more of a checklist than PD! That is insane, that for a crim to open fire in the city they will take more steps to avoid this action due to the rules than the actual PD themselves would do. The crims seem to have more of a responsibility than the PD when it comes to "protecting" the NPCs.

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Hard +1

I know this is a game and shit and comparing it to real life is only so effective but police in the UK for example literally only use lethal force when lethal force is being used against them e.g. raiding someones house whos seen having a gun, being very aggressive to the police/public with or without a weapon. I just think there should be many different tactics implemented often such as the usage of spike strips which from what I remember when I was in the PD was only allowed to be used by VTD which is only a fraction of the PD whereas if you trained all officers from PO1 to use them in certain scenarios, using lethal force could be avoided considering the amount of lower ranking officers compared to the ones that are in VTD to use the spike strips let alone the ones in METRO which takes a long time to achieve. This is just an example of 1 simple solution that could be implemented and of course changed in any way that makes most sense in general. 

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44 minutes ago, SmushyTaco said:

+1

On top everything that's been said, a police officer shouldn't even be pointing lethal weapons at anybody if they're not going to actually use lethal force.

Let's say I'm lock picking a car and a police officer finds me. 9/10 times they're going to point a gun at me rather than something like a taser just because of the OOC FearRP rules put in place that force me to comply. Even if I'm very confident on an IC level I won't actually be shot I'll still need to comply.

I'm not saying loosen the FearRP rules in anyway. I'm just saying have some sort of OOC rules in place so that FearRP isn't abused by law enforcement.

Think it depends on you. If you’ve got a gun on your back or in your hand, aiming a gun is justified. You don’t want to give someone a chance to shoot.

That being said, most cops would use the taser if there’s no active thread.

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