Archive Please

[Riderz]

archive

Edited January 28, 2020 by Tezhl

[MarineTipton]

Can't agree more... Preach!

[Yputi]

So, they removed the 2 hour prison limit?

[Will215]

6 minutes ago, Yputi said:

So, they removed the 2 hour prison limit?

Indeed they did.

[Paulius]

Man I also hate when I open fire on 7 officers and get put in prison for that. Wtfrick people!!

[Riderz]

3 minutes ago, NBDY said:

Man I also hate when I open fire on 7 officers and get put in prison for that. Wtfrick people!!

What it means in lighter terms; I shoot at one cop while 7 are in the background I catch all those additonal charges.

[MrSix]

1 hour ago, Tezhl said:

Fires on one officer during a break out; 7 cops on scene = 7 attempts of murder on a gov official = 10.5 hours +

To be honest, I've been in the PD Faction for over a year and have never stacked charges like this, nor have I directly witnessed it. Whilst legally officers are allowed to charge you like that (if you'd shoot at multiple), it really doesn't happen. At least, I've never seen it being done. BUT, this is a roleplay server, actions have consequences. Criminals having the mindset of "Let me kill a few cops and then AFK 2 hours in prison" isn't the greatest either heh...

But perhaps this is something we can discuss internally if this really is an issue. (Which I doubt.)

Edited July 1, 2019 by MrSix

[Daniel_Underwood]

+1

[Alverin]

3 hours ago, Tezhl said:

What it means in lighter terms; I shoot at one cop while 7 are in the background I catch all those additonal charges.

Why are you shooting at a group of cops to begin with? I get that this is a game and that the game is meant to be fun, but you have to understand the meta and what the owners are prioritizing as fun. For some people (like you I assume) getting in a shoot-out with 7 cops with four of your buddies backing you up and starting a small war in the middle of Los Santos is a fun endeavor, and rightly so. There's no issue with that, however what the developers have done with the update is prioritize a different kind of fun experienced by a different kind of person. They've paved the way for "smart criminals" This means the "game" has changed. They didn't make it any less fun, they just changed who the game is fun for.

 

Now gangs who operate strictly to avoid the cops will have a better time playing the game, they will have more fun because that's what they're good at and they will succeed. In essence, this paves the way for more complex stories to arise from ECRP. "I got into a shootout with 3 of my buddies against 7 cops" sounds really fun and cool, until it happens 6 times a week for 6 weeks straight. Now your goal as a gangster should be to avoid police interaction and prioritize freedom. Shooting at the cops isn't the game, the game is preventing yourself from being noticed in the first place. Which, surprise surprise, is more realistic to begin with.

 

TL;DR The decision belongs to the owners, if you don't wanna be in jail for 10 hours, find a better way to commit crimes, stop being a criminal, or go play GTA 5 Story Mode.

[Bala]

I only speak for myself in this but as a cop and as someone who actively advocated for higher sentences, I think increasing the prison cap to 10 hours is an unnecessary exaggeration and it's going to create as many problems as it solves.

Gang Roleplay is already quite stale, in that they don't war with one another. They pick on civilians and bait cops to chase them, as far as I can see out of boredom rather than anything else. Doing either of those things now with the prison increase isn't worth the punishment anymore but I don't believe it's going to achieve the desired results either.

Pre-patch, there were occasions when someone wanted would stop for a traffic stop or that they'd hand themselves in. 
Ask yourself honestly, Is someone that's facing eight hours in prison going to role-play with the police or are they even more inclined to try and shoot their way out of trouble?

There is a fragile relationship between criminals and police. We rely on criminals for our job and the criminals rely on us for that element of extra danger. Changes like this in my opinion only serve to undermine that relationship and strain relations even further. 

For me, six hours would of been the sweet spot. You can get most of that sentence done in a day of playing. Ten hours is probably 2-3 days of playing before you have any kind of freedom.

As for the original post, completely in agreement, you should be punished for the offences you commit and no more or less. Shooting at just 1 cop, when seven are present should only equate to 1 cop.

[Alverin]

1 hour ago, GOAT said:

I only speak for myself in this but as a cop and as someone who actively advocated for higher sentences, I think increasing the prison cap to 10 hours is an unnecessary exaggeration and it's going to create as many problems as it solves.

Gang Roleplay is already quite stale, in that they don't war with one another. They pick on civilians and bait cops to chase them, as far as I can see out of boredom rather than anything else. Doing either of those things now with the prison increase isn't worth the punishment anymore but I don't believe it's going to achieve the desired results either.

Pre-patch, there were occasions when someone wanted would stop for a traffic stop or that they'd hand themselves in. 
Ask yourself honestly, Is someone that's facing eight hours in prison going to role-play with the police or are they even more inclined to try and shoot their way out of trouble?

There is a fragile relationship between criminals and police. We rely on criminals for our job and the criminals rely on us for that element of extra danger. Changes like this in my opinion only serve to undermine that relationship and strain relations even further. 

For me, six hours would of been the sweet spot. You can get most of that sentence done in a day of playing. Ten hours is probably 2-3 days of playing before you have any kind of freedom.

As for the original post, completely in agreement, you should be punished for the offences you commit and no more or less. Shooting at just 1 cop, when seven are present should only equate to 1 cop.

I've already spoke about why the limits are so high and why criminals should be more careful, but you brought up a particular point in regards to stale criminal roleplay. You make this claim that if someone's facing 8 hours in prison they'd be more inclined to shoot their way out of arrest than to lay down and take it, if their facing an additional 10 hours (total 18) for trying to shoot their way out, I'd hope they'd have the foresight and brain cells to calculate that maybe attacking 8 police officers with your loaded weapon isn't a good idea. Just take the sentence on the chin. Why would you add additional time to your sentence? How often do gangsters kill all the cops that show up to arrest them? Why is that even an option? The server isn't cops vs robbers. Criminals aren't supposed to win by brute force, if they could they'd just overthrow the government.

Shooting at a group of cops is an offence you commit. When you aim, point and fire your gun in the direction of a police officer, it's pretty evident you're attempting to murder them. More importantly, you're putting ALL of their lives at risk by firing a gun in their direction, as there is no guarantee that you'll miss them or a bullet won't ricochet and hit them. Would you prefer the charges be changed to "Reckless Endagerment of a Officer"?

Do you believe you should be able to aim your gun and shoot all around a police officer's feet without hitting him and walk away without any charges as long as you have a gun license?

[alexalex303]

2 hours ago, GOAT said:

Pre-patch, there were occasions when someone wanted would stop for a traffic stop or that they'd hand themselves in. 
Ask yourself honestly, Is someone that's facing eight hours in prison going to role-play with the police or are they even more inclined to try and shoot their way out of trouble?

Occasions as in once in a blue moon.

If someone is facing eight hours in prison if he surrenders, but eighteen for shooting at all the cops arresting him, he would reasonably surrender. Adding a hard cap will give him permission to do whatever he wishes when he reaches the cap, as there will be no further punishment, only the possibly of reward (if he dies in the shootout).

Edited July 2, 2019 by alexalex303

[Riderz]

43 minutes ago, Alverin said:

I've already spoke about why the limits are so high and why criminals should be more careful, but you brought up a particular point in regards to stale criminal roleplay. You make this claim that if someone's facing 8 hours in prison they'd be more inclined to shoot their way out of arrest than to lay down and take it, if their facing an additional 10 hours (total 18) for trying to shoot their way out, I'd hope they'd have the foresight and brain cells to calculate that maybe attacking 8 police officers with your loaded weapon isn't a good idea. Just take the sentence on the chin. Why would you add additional time to your sentence? How often do gangsters kill all the cops that show up to arrest them? Why is that even an option? The server isn't cops vs robbers. Criminals aren't supposed to win by brute force, if they could they'd just overthrow the government.

Shooting at a group of cops is an offence you commit. When you aim, point and fire your gun in the direction of a police officer, it's pretty evident you're attempting to murder them. More importantly, you're putting ALL of their lives at risk by firing a gun in their direction, as there is no guarantee that you'll miss them or a bullet won't ricochet and hit them. Would you prefer the charges be changed to "Reckless Endagerment of a Officer"?

Do you believe you should be able to aim your gun and shoot all around a police officer's feet without hitting him and walk away without any charges as long as you have a gun license?

Alrighty, so what issue would the server have in this case that a "smart criminal" leaves no hostages, no witness, etc. Kidnapping family members, torturing those who cause issuing with a family executing business. If you are "for" this form of strict RP then the following should not trouble you. How about we place citywide contracts on those who arrest us? That would be Roleplay as it relates to the above issues. If you want "IRL" then give us everything that comes with it. 

How about us being able to import heavy rifles and carbines because it's so readily accessible across state lines (keeping with the fact that LS is in CA). How about we remove OOC administration actions when it comes to prison breaks? How about we remove .50 CAL rifles from PD as it's not allowed by any agency in the US. 

[Alverin]

1 minute ago, Tezhl said:

Alrighty, so what issue would the server have in this case that a "smart criminal" leaves no hostages, no witness, etc. Kidnapping family members, torturing those who cause issuing with a family executing business. If you are "for" this form of strict RP then the following should not trouble you. How about we place citywide contracts on those who arrest us? That would be Roleplay as it relates to the above issues. If you want "IRL" then give us everything that comes with it. 

How about us being able to import heavy rifles and carbines because it's so readily accessible across state lines (keeping with the fact that LS is in CA). How about we remove OOC administration actions when it comes to prison breaks? How about we remove .50 CAL rifles from PD as it's not allowed by any agency in the US. 

I don't really get what you're arguing here. Hostage situations never work out in real life, why would you "leave" a hostage anywhere? What do you mean by that? If you want to kill witnesses I also think you should be allowed to do that. If you want to "kidnap" family members I think you should be able to do that too, I don't know what makes you think I wouldn't be okay with you doing those things in the server. What you said does not trouble me. Do it and have fun doing it, just don't complain about a 20 hour jail sentence when you just took up everyone elses time RPing a torture scene. You get RP and give rp, that's how it works no?

What do you mean by "place city wide contracts on those who arrest us". You mean hitmen contracts? Why not? That should also be allowed in my opinion. I don't want "IRL" roleplay, I want a system that creates dramatic scenes and situations and proportionately fosters a SERIOUS RP environment. It's hard for me to take the server seriously when you've got one guy with an AK-47 spraying at cops getting out of jail within the next two hours. Give me a break. 

I don't know what your fixation on these very specific circumstances like "importing heavy rifles" is, I think you're misunderstanding my post. ECRP isn't a spitting image of real life, we're not trying to emulate real life. We're trying to create and add a system perpetuates smarter, more dramatic and more serious roleplay among criminals. This is a step in that direction, I can try to re-explain how this would happen if you need clarification.

When you bring up the point about .50 CAL rifles you seem to be implying that we should make ECRP exactly like real life if we're going to implement a change that results in more realistic decisions. Firstly I don't understand how that follows, secondly that's not what we're advocating for. We don't want 100% realism, if we wanted that we'd be outside running around. We want semi-realism is a life that mirrors our own to an exciting extent. Each and every one of us has a different perspective on how that is achieved, if you think removing .50 CAL rifles would make the game more FUN then please, make a suggestion for that. But the suggestion that players spend more time in jail has nothing to do with realism and everything to do with meta-balance and incentivizing exciting behavior to a particular group of players.

[Clank]

What police in the server dont seem to realize. "multiple counts" of a crime doesnt mean you stack charges, that would actually be illegal and considered double jeopardy. Multiple counts of a crime are for the COURTS. They're considered crime theory and what is used to prove you guilty IN COURT. For example, if I am a police officer I have to prove someone guilty in court of their murder charge? How do I do this? By making multiple 'theories' to prove him guilty. COUNTS of a crime are literally just different ways the police can TRY and prove you guilty. Nobody can actually BE charged multiple times thats actually a criminal offense for law enforcement called double jeopardy. Stacking charges is already illegal under united states law and should be illegal in Los Santos as well. This is coming from a law student.

 

*edit this little image in*

"the prohibition is not against being twice punished, but against being twice put in jeopardy; and the accused, whether convicted or acquitted, is equally put in jeopardy at the first trial."

Edited July 2, 2019 by Clank

[Alverin]

18 minutes ago, Clank said:

What police in the server dont seem to realize. "multiple counts" of a crime doesnt mean you stack charges, that would actually be illegal and considered double jeopardy. Multiple counts of a crime are for the COURTS. They're considered crime theory and what is used to prove you guilty IN COURT. For example, if I am a police officer I have to prove someone guilty in court of their murder charge? How do I do this? By making multiple 'theories' to prove him guilty. COUNTS of a crime are literally just different ways the police can TRY and prove you guilty. Nobody can actually BE charged multiple times thats actually a criminal offense for law enforcement called double jeopardy. Stacking charges is already illegal under united states law and should be illegal in Los Santos as well. This is coming from a law student.

 

*edit this little image in*

"the prohibition is not against being twice punished, but against being twice put in jeopardy; and the accused, whether convicted or acquitted, is equally put in jeopardy at the first trial."

Oof, hate to break it to you but this isn't what Double Jeopardy means. You're taking it to mean you can't be convicted of the same charge twice, what double jeopardy ACTUALLY means is once you're acquitted you can't be RE-CHARGED for that offense again. So if you go to court and the judge deems you not guilty, the prosecution can't take you back to court for that same thing two years later when they come up with some more evidence.

" While double jeopardy prohibits different prosecutions for the same offense, it does not protect defendants from multiple prosecutions for multiple offenses. For example, a person acquitted of murder could be tried again on the “lesser included offense” of involuntary manslaughter. " - https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-double-jeopardy-4164747

Also

" As described by the U.S. Supreme Court in its unanimous decision concerning Ball v. United States 163 U.S. 662 (1896), one of its earliest cases dealing with double jeopardy, "the prohibition is not against being twice punished, but against being twice put in jeopardy; and the accused, whether convicted or acquitted, is equally put in jeopardy at the first trial." "

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_jeopardy

You're a law student you say? What year are you in?

Besides all of that nonsense, I keep trying to re-frame this in a way people will understand, let's try again.

The reason for the stacking limit removal wasn't because of REALISM.

The reason for the stacking limit removal was for BALANCE, META-MANIPULATION, AND GAME THEORY. The idea is that by REMOVING THE LIMIT and giving cops more POWER TO IMPRISON, we will see a change in criminal behavior that fits the servers intended style.

[Clank]

19 minutes ago, Alverin said:

Oof, hate to break it to you but this isn't what Double Jeopardy means. You're taking it to mean you can't be convicted of the same charge twice, what double jeopardy ACTUALLY means is once you're acquitted you can't be RE-CHARGED for that offense again. So if you go to court and the judge deems you not guilty, the prosecution can't take you back to court for that same thing two years later when they come up with some more evidence.

" While double jeopardy prohibits different prosecutions for the same offense, it does not protect defendants from multiple prosecutions for multiple offenses. For example, a person acquitted of murder could be tried again on the “lesser included offense” of involuntary manslaughter. " - https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-double-jeopardy-4164747

Also

" As described by the U.S. Supreme Court in its unanimous decision concerning Ball v. United States 163 U.S. 662 (1896), one of its earliest cases dealing with double jeopardy, "the prohibition is not against being twice punished, but against being twice put in jeopardy; and the accused, whether convicted or acquitted, is equally put in jeopardy at the first trial." "

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_jeopardy

You're a law student you say? What year are you in?

Besides all of that nonsense, I keep trying to re-frame this in a way people will understand, let's try again.

The reason for the stacking limit removal wasn't because of REALISM.

The reason for the stacking limit removal was for BALANCE, META-MANIPULATION, AND GAME THEORY. The idea is that by REMOVING THE LIMIT and giving cops more POWER TO IMPRISON, we will see a change in criminal behavior that fits the servers intended style.

"So if you go to court and the judge deems you not guilty, the prosecution can't take you back to court for that same thing two years later when they come up with some more evidence." 

Yes exactly! I posted the definition in my post? It also not just about being acquitted, It protects you even if you are convicted! If you get convicted and they find more evidence they cant just take you to court for it with the new evidence.

"While double jeopardy prohibits different prosecutions for the same offense, it does not protect defendants from multiple prosecutions for multiple offenses. For example, a person acquitted of murder could be tried again on the “lesser included offense” of involuntary manslaughter. " - https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-double-jeopardy-4164747"

Thats exactly what I wrote! MULTIPLE offenses are completely fine in different situations you did the crime you are held liable BUT it cannot be from the same situation! You can't just charge someone for attempted murder 7 times if they shoot 7 cops in the same shootout, The courts would only try them for ONE charge. "counts" are completely different than charges when being processed/convicted!

The issue is, Shooting SEVEN different cops doesnt equal attempted murder SEVEN times. It would be one charge! ATTEMPTED First-Degree Murder OR ATTEMPTED Capital Murder depending on your state.

____

The error I made writing my post was when I said "nobody can be charged for murder multiple times" I mean "TRIED" for murder. You cannot take someone to court and slam 7 attempted murder charges on someone just because there were 7 officers on scene. 

Also, 3rd year law! Going for a Doctorates title like my father. You misread my post and I also made an error when I was writing it up! Apologies. I will fix my original typing mistake on my post that gave you the wrong impression of what I was trying to say.

Here's an actual lawyer defining what a 'count' means:

The murder statute defines several distinct mental states that can support a conviction for murder. The prosecutor usually charges every mental state that can potentially apply as a separate count. If the defendant is ultimately found guilty on more than one count arising out a single act, the counts are merged into one conviction for purposes of judgment and sentence..

It is even explained that it all merged into once conviction (charge) for judgement.

____________

TL:DR, Charge Stacking someone because they shot at 7 different cops IS double jeopardy because they would be BEING TRIED FOR THE SAME CRIME. (I just made a typing error in my original post)

 

P.S The theory behind prison sentence being removed wouldnt be a mitigation for crime, it actually makes criminal RP worse by them NOT wanting to be caught. More prison transport attacks, more RP ending in gunfights, more cops being shot at. 

Edited July 2, 2019 by Clank
added a p.s

[Bala]

7 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

Occasions as in once in a blue moon.

If someone is facing eight hours in prison if he surrenders, but eighteen for shooting at all the cops arresting him, he would reasonably surrender. Adding a hard cap will give him permission to do whatever he wishes when he reaches the cap, as there will be no further punishment, only the possibly of reward (if he dies in the shootout).

I think in trying to adjust the balance, they've just completely swung it the wrong way and if I were a criminal, it's perhaps not going to motivate me to commit crime smarter which seems to be the point, it's going to demotivate me to play, especially if I'm stuck in prison for 10 hours.

It's about balance, yes punish those that commit the crimes but then we're reliant on criminals for our activity in PD as well and it's been weird the past couple weeks because there are periods where we've had 250-300 people on the server and barely any 911 calls. I'm not sure that a 10 hour prison sentence helps that.

I'm also not sure that it encourages the gangs to fight each other instead of baiting cops and robbing civilians either because they know it's an easy catch. I'm not sure that people are as accepting OOC to go to prison. I'm not sure that people won't do everything they possible can to death roleplay or to loophole out of going to prison.

A new player comes to the server and is speeding around in a vehicle, getting Reckless Operation charges but he's unaware of the consequence of this like a normal player would be. He gets 4 of those charges and when he gets caught, he goes to prison for three hours for driving fast around the city. He thinks it's just tickets. We then have to remove his license, he get an extra fine on top. If that was you, would you stay?

It's like a lot of these changes whether it's the GPS or the prison cap or the hunger/water or the recoil or the cross hair removal is for a server we don't have. 

[Alverin]

2 hours ago, Clank said:

The issue is, Shooting SEVEN different cops doesnt equal attempted murder SEVEN times. It would be one charge! ATTEMPTED First-Degree Murder OR ATTEMPTED Capital Murder depending on your state.

This is wrong, here's a link to a Criminal Defense Attorney saying the exact opposite, he actually says "you are charged with five separate offenses of the crime and can be punished for each one separately"

https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/what-do-a--count--mean-in-a-crime---1061187.html

The person I'm quoting is Criminal Defense Attorney W. Scott Brannen in response to this persons question. It seems others also corroborate this.

Furthermore, The Shouse California Law Group seem to disagree with you on this as well, stating you get 11 counts of murder for firing at multiple residences. That's the last Example under the header "That you intended to kill that person"

https://www.shouselaw.com/attempted-murder.html

It also seems having multiple counts of attempted murder would get you a longer sentence. You use the phrase "Charge Stacking" to refer to the scenario you painted "shooting at 7 different cops" but that's not what Charge Stacking is. Charge Stacking is when a cop thinks of every possible crime you could have committed while there and apply's all of the charges he comes up with. 7 charges of attempted murder in this instance would totally be valid if you had a fire-arm and were returning fire at cops surrounding you. Even if you thought you were only going to hit two. See the SCLG link for citation.

I would like to continue to contend, this has nothing to do with double jeopardy since double jeopardy is relative to the same charge. If you traded fire with police officers and they charged you several counts of attempted murder, they could, and you might get convicted for that, but they'd have to prove it. The judicial process is not currently in our system as of now, correct me if I'm wrong. So we assume you committed the crime when the police officer books you. Police officers can place whatever charges they want when they book you. It's up to them and they usually try to put as many as they can. If you stab two people at a bar fight you're getting charges for two counts of aggravated assault. And no where in the history of anywhere has anyone ever argued that Double Jeopardy would apply there.

You go on to correct yourself but also contradict yourself almost instantly later in your post when you say "You cannot be TRIED in court" for the same crime, yes, but if you shoot at two different police officers in a shoot out, you attempted to murder both of them and you will be TRIED once but during the TRIAL you will be CHARGED with two COUNTS of attempted murder. So just to clarify, it seems like you're mixing up being TRIED in court with getting charged for 7 crimes. You can be TRIED in court once for 7 Counts of Attempted murder. And if you fired into a group of police officers in which 7 were present, you'd probably get 7 attempted murder charges.

Now to the META.

You bring up a few instances in which Criminal RP might degrade because players won't want to get caught. I feel like you're not giving people the benefit of the doubt here. You're actually saying they're too dim to realize when they get pulled over that 8 hours is a shorter sentence than 18 and it'd be better to take the charge on the chin than get into a shoot out and stack an additional 7 attempted murder charges onto your rap sheet. This is just really basic math, not much to wrestle with here. You're telling me a persons friends are gunna ram raid a cop on his way to arrest him and risk getting several hours in the cans themselves too? How often are they going to do this? Your argument is a bit counter intuitive in the sense that even if we /DID/ see a spike in this behavior, it would peter out or at least equalize with current behavior since they wouldn't be able to do these things while in jail anyways, since we have longer sentences that's just more time they CAN'T disobey the law.

Congratulations on your third year, keep your head up and continue your profession with passion brother.

[Reckless311]

1 hour ago, GOAT said:

I think in trying to adjust the balance, they've just completely swung it the wrong way and if I were a criminal, it's perhaps not going to motivate me to commit crime smarter which seems to be the point, it's going to demotivate me to play, especially if I'm stuck in prison for 10 hours.

It's about balance, yes punish those that commit the crimes but then we're reliant on criminals for our activity in PD as well and it's been weird the past couple weeks because there are periods where we've had 250-300 people on the server and barely any 911 calls. I'm not sure that a 10 hour prison sentence helps that.

I'm also not sure that it encourages the gangs to fight each other instead of baiting cops and robbing civilians either because they know it's an easy catch. I'm not sure that people are as accepting OOC to go to prison. I'm not sure that people won't do everything they possible can to death roleplay or to loophole out of going to prison.

A new player comes to the server and is speeding around in a vehicle, getting Reckless Operation charges but he's unaware of the consequence of this like a normal player would be. He gets 4 of those charges and when he gets caught, he goes to prison for three hours for driving fast around the city. He thinks it's just tickets. We then have to remove his license, he get an extra fine on top. If that was you, would you stay?

It's like a lot of these changes whether it's the GPS or the prison cap or the hunger/water or the recoil or the cross hair removal is for a server we don't have. 

People don't call LSPD because of the attitude they get from officers if they even respond to your calls.  The culture in the PD is 90% a-holes and who wants to deal with that?  that's the main reason you see declines in calls.  I think PD should be more professional when dealing with the citizens. 

 

As for the double jeopardy discussion.  You cam get multiple charges from the same act.  Lesser included offenses as well.  Shooting at cops from a car could result in 3 separate charges.  Attempted murder of Gov official, illegal weapon charge, and firing a gun from a vehicle (yes, that is a crime in LD). This is not stacking, these are separate crimes committed in one instance.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Reckless311
Corrections

[alexalex303]

2 hours ago, Reckless311 said:

People don't call LSPD because of the attitude they get from officers if they even respond to your calls.  The culture in the PD is 90% a-holes and who wants to deal with that?  that's the main reason you see declines in calls.  I think PD should be more professional when dealing with the citizens. 

 

As for the double jeopardy discussion.  You cam get multiple charges from the same act.  Lesser included offenses as well.  Shooting at cops from a car could result in 3 separate charges.  Attempted murder of Gov official, illegal weapon charge, and firing a gun from a vehicle (yes, that is a crime in LD). This is not stacking, these are separate crimes committed in one instance.

Good example. OP would see that as charge stacking, but is perfectly reasonable.

[Kris]

Archived by request.