PD and illegal imports; recent changes that should be reversed.

[TheCanadian]

With the recent changes PD now has a 5% chance to receive a notification for illegal imports of weapons, ammunition or attachments.

This change should be reversed back to how it was previously, and here is why:
 

It adds automation to the server

• This is not something criminals can outsmart, counter, or prevent.
• The notification will go out regardless of the precautions the criminal takes; I.e never saying the drop location on the radio, only texting then deleting the texts, or saying the location in person to minimize the risk of leaks. 
• Removes potential RP with PD planning to send in moles to gangs, pay off informants, etc. that would allow criminals to also interact and prevent potential leaks of information.

I have talked with 2 people i know who has had this happen to them and they both said the same story, they went to pick up ammo when a lot of swat and PD rolled up on them, caught them and arrested them. Later that same day their house(s) got raided by PD and they lost all of the weapons and munition they worked hard to stash. Now i am not certain if PD catches you at a dropoff that they would raid you house, but even if they didnt do this I would put forward that this new implementation for certain removes potential in depth RP to the server between PD and gangs. It adds automation, i could even see how some people would see it as powergaming because there is literally nothing we can do as criminals to stop PD from getting that notification.

Please revert this change and promote better RP inside of PD. Get moles into gangs, work your way up the ranks like you would IRL until you eventually have enough information to bust the whole thing wide open. Pay off informants, offer tempting deals for those about to go to prison. etc.

Just please, please dont keep this in the server. It adds 0RP, adds automation and there is nothing criminals can do to prevent PD from getting that notification.

 

Looking forward to seeing input from everyone

Edit: I have been told by some people that it is higher than 5%, but here is the screenshot i am going off of from NBDY's stream last month. the value might have been adjusted.

 

Edited May 27, 2019 by TheCanadian

[Marca]

Thing is, I think this additional actually adds a bit more realism. All weapons are imported into LS. Because of that, different factions in the city work with different factions outside of LS (looking at this from a RP standpoint). Even if you're all careful on who gets the notification, you're still just half of the full picture. The other group that's importing these things could have a snitch or an agent in their ranks, that later notifies the LSPD. Realistically there's no way for you guys to know how the other group operates or how good their security is.

I'd see this as a good thing, since the % chance is very low and weapons are pretty cheap. Importing weapons can also have little RP to them to begin with. Furthermore, there's also no visible indication that weapons are being dropped off, since they just spawn in certain places. There are no NPC's that would fly over and airdrop or use boats to get close and use the waves to get the crates on shore. If NPC's like that would be added (which can be), I'd say that would balance things out more.

[TheCanadian]

19 minutes ago, Marca said:

The other group that's importing these things could have a snitch or an agent in their ranks, that later notifies the LSPD. Realistically there's no way for you guys to know how the other group operates or how good their security is.

thats the thing. COULD. there is nothing in our power we can do to prevent this from happening, no relationships to be forged and strengthened with the one who is giving us the weapons, no paying them to make sure only people they trust are on the job at hand. Nothing. We are powerless in this scenario to RNG.

19 minutes ago, Marca said:

and weapons are pretty cheap.

I couldn't care less if PD catches me importing 30 .50 rounds and i go to jail for it. What i am worried about is them raiding my house because of a mechanic i had no power to prevent, no matter how much i could try. I also use to make massive imports of 50shotguns as more weapons shipped save the buyer money. However when my 50 shotguns worth 500k and my 30 AK rounds worth under 5k have the same amount of chance to be caught, forgive my language but i think that is really fucking stupid.

Edited May 27, 2019 by TheCanadian

[Linden]

1 hour ago, TheCanadian said:

there is nothing in our power we can do to prevent this from happening

because of a mechanic i had no power to prevent, no matter how much i could try.

You can't plan for and control everything in life. You wouldn't have much influence over some cartel that operates out of Mexico nor knowledge of any snitches or undercovers in their group. People might also notice things happening IRL and call the cops because they are concerned, but that doesn't have much chance to happen because there isn't many people living in the city.

5% is a tiny chance and you should just treat each smuggling operation as if the cops might turn up.

[TheCanadian]

8 minutes ago, Linden said:

You can't plan for and control everything in life. You wouldn't have much influence over some cartel that operates out of Mexico nor knowledge of any snitches or undercovers in their group. People might also notice things happening IRL and call the cops because they are concerned, but that doesn't have much chance to happen because there isn't many people living in the city.

5% is a tiny chance and you should just treat each smuggling operation as if the cops might turn up.

What happens IRL vs what is healthy for the server is 2 completely different arguments. i am attempting to state that it would be better for the server in terms of RP and overall interaction between cops and criminals. Many things are not realistic but are the way they are because it is better for the community overall, and promotes better RP. This is the argument i am trying to make.

[HaminLord]

4 hours ago, TheCanadian said:

With the recent changes PD now has a 5% chance to receive a notification for illegal imports of weapons, ammunition or attachments

I'll start off by saying this, PD doesn't know the import locations.

When an import does come in, and we get the message telling us one is coming. We only get 1 message in chat saying something roughly like this.

"[POLICE INFORMANT] A criminal weapons import is arriving at Paleto Bay in 50 minutes."

We don't get any markers on the map, any further messages or etcetera. We simply get the message, a general location. (E.g Vespucci Canals, Los Santos International Airport or Grapseed).

4 hours ago, TheCanadian said:

This is not something criminals can outsmart, counter, or prevent.

Now to this, you'd be surprised. But we've already been outsmarted. More than once.

We've already had a few imports in which we're too late to catch the suspects, and when we do. They've already stashed the weapons away, meaning we cannot arrest them without solid proof.

You want to outsmart us? Get a few vehicles, each one driving around the area to confuse us. 

You want to counter or prevent this? Get a small convoy going on, get some people in trucks or vans. Protect whoever is carrying the import by ramming us, blocking us or etcetera.

4 hours ago, TheCanadian said:

Removes potential RP with PD planning to send in moles to gangs, pay off informants, etc. that would allow criminals to also interact and prevent potential leaks of information.

There is RP going on. Everytime we receive a notification for an import, we group up. Usually send a detective to scout the area, get a few SWAT on standby. Get a helicopter up in the air to provide overwatch and useful information and etcetera.

RP between PD and Criminals isn't extremely that high quality sometimes as I'm sure you know. I'm sure getting informants into gangs can help etcetera, but doing so. Might as well let us know about every import you order.

The 5% chance was mainly made to stop tens of imports made by criminals every day, with people stockpiling on AKs and shotguns, something had to be done in the technical side of things to keep the server smooth and working and to prevent criminals constantly going around with heavies on their back without any fear to lose it.

4 hours ago, TheCanadian said:

Just please, please dont keep this in the server. It adds 0RP, adds automation and there is nothing criminals can do to prevent PD from getting that notification.

For this part, I'm going to ask you personally. Isn't criminal RP almost fully automated? 

Imports are automated, almost no roleplay. Drug labs are automated, almost no roleplay. Chop shops are automated, almost no roleplay.

And sure, there is RP. But we all know criminal RP is not that good. Constant robberies on one another, forum and OOC wars and occasional massive rule breaks between one another. (Not saying this is only on the criminal side, I agree this happens on PD's side sometimes as well)

4 hours ago, TheCanadian said:

 I have talked with 2 people i know who has had this happen to them and they both said the same story, they went to pick up ammo when a lot of swat and PD rolled up on them, caught them and arrested them. Later that same day their house(s) got raided by PD and they lost all of the weapons and munition they worked hard to stash.

No, I can tell you this now. We have no way of knowing where your house is located at. Nor do we raid it simply because we caught you importing illegal weaponry.

We have our own protocol in regards to raiding houses which I don't know if I'm allowed to share or not, but I can assure you we don't raid houses this way.

 

To sum this up, personally. I have mixed feelings about this.

From one side, I want to -1 this. I agree with you in regards to automation, that this is a bit powergaming. (As criminals can't do anything in regards to it)

On the other, I want to +1 this. As I believe the 5% chance (Which I personally believe isn't really 5%, but I have no way knowing exactly) is needed to prevent criminals stockpiling on massive stashes of AKs and shotguns. Adding a bit more value to weapons.

 

Finally, I'll give this a +0. I simply wanted to clear things up from my point of view.

[TheCanadian]

34 minutes ago, HaminLord said:

We don't get any markers on the map, any further messages or etcetera. We simply get the message, a general location. (E.g Vespucci Canals, Los Santos International Airport or Grapseed).

Those are the names of the drop locations, does PD not get a message for the exact spot of the drop i.e Puerto del sol? even if so... if you see Paleto it narrows it down to 2.grapseed narrows it down to 1. Airport to 3., Vespucci to 1 location. Not exactly difficult to find out which it drops at if what you are saying is true. 

 

34 minutes ago, HaminLord said:

Now to this, you'd be surprised. But we've already been outsmarted. More than once.

We've already had a few imports in which we're too late to catch the suspects, and when we do. They've already stashed the weapons away, meaning we cannot arrest them without solid proof.

You want to outsmart us? Get a few vehicles, each one driving around the area to confuse us. 

You want to counter or prevent this? Get a small convoy going on, get some people in trucks or vans. Protect whoever is carrying the import by ramming us, blocking us or etcetera.

The first example is you not being responsible with your time management, or other stuff going on and you showing up late. The second I already tried in other situations involving PD and got charged with essentially 'guilty by association's charges despite having nothing illegal on me. And the third works well for when someone is ordering a big shipment of weapons, but is extremely impractical and borderline impossible for every drop that happens.

 

34 minutes ago, HaminLord said:

RP between PD and Criminals isn't extremely that high quality sometimes as I'm sure you know. I'm sure getting informants into gangs can help etcetera, but doing so. Might as well let us know about every import you order.

This is where you are wrong. Only those with the rank which may order can see the notification of the location and time it will arrive, and it is up to them to relay the information to those it concerns. If I would suspect there to be a mole I would request to not have the information said over the radio, say my number and ask them to text me so most if not all possibilities of my drop being raided are nullified.

34 minutes ago, HaminLord said:

For this part, I'm going to ask you personally. Isn't criminal RP almost fully automated? 

Imports are automated, almost no roleplay. Drug labs are automated, almost no roleplay. Chop shops are automated, almost no roleplay.

And sure, there is RP. But we all know criminal RP is not that good. Constant robberies on one another, forum and OOC wars and occasional massive rule breaks between one another. (Not saying this is only on the criminal side, I agree this happens on PD's side sometimes as well)

I very much disagree that drug Labs are automated. It is a dynamic environment, having set people to scout, when others roll up deciding to rob them and take their phones vs letting go them go with a chance they call cops, many interactions happen at labs.

 

This is in no way comparable to a SCRIPTED automated notification. Could there be more to implemented for drops, chopshop and many other things? Sure. But I do not agree that the way to fix the issue is to implement things that would just aggravate the issue above.

If your question is: 'But arent most activities already automated?'  implying there is a problem with the way it is and the lack of RP around it; your answer to this issue shouldn't be 'lets add more automation to the server.'. you are bolstering the issue even more by increasing the frequency it occurs on the server.

 

34 minutes ago, HaminLord said:

No, I can tell you this now. We have no way of knowing where your house is located at. Nor do we raid it simply because we caught you importing illegal weaponry.

Then I must have been given misinformation, my apologies.

 

I appreciate your detailed reply.

Edited May 27, 2019 by TheCanadian

[Yputi]

I just think we come to a point again where we have to accept PD and Criminals are not equal.

[flow]

You are ranting about a 5% chance of your illegal shipment being seized. Are you aware of that? The system used to order these shipments is all online, and by definition and real-life examples, these illegal market places are monitored by the police and lead to arrests and seizures. Lose the mindset that you have to win in every situation and need a reward simply for roleplaying. Maybe if you would see past this petty point you're making of how unfair it is that a tiny percentage of shipments may be seized you could see the RP value of such and come up with ideas to not only secure your shipment but also in the process of doing so, enhance the roleplay for everyone involved.

Edited May 27, 2019 by flow

[Daniel_Underwood]

+1

[alexalex303]

After manufacturing drugs, do you always sell them to players, providing good roleplay to the server, or do you have the option to sell them in automated drop off areas which instantly spawns cash? How about the mining ore dropoff that people are literally camping to extort new players to the server out of their ore? The butchery drop off?

Is that the good thing of automation then? because I didn't see you suggest those being removed and only having the ability to sell those things to other players.

You also present this as a false dichotomy "if its automated, PD is not making use of actual informants, providing good RP", why? There is no reason the LSPD can not have an actual player informant, and 4% of shipments being automatically informed about.

This isn't anything but a double standard, where its fine for you to sell drugs automatically to NPCs, but the LSPD having 4% of a task automated? It's NonRP, Powergame and all of those?

Edited May 27, 2019 by alexalex303

[Linden]

50 minutes ago, Hoxton_Curry said:

 I believe it's quite stupid that there's a chance I will have to waste 2+ hours and my money over 30 AK shots (and yes 30 ak ammo is the usual amount you will very rarely get over 50 )

A 5% chance that it gets reported, which can be worked around as stated by the cops in this thread. Treat each import like the cops might show up, move quickly and use decoys if necessary. Think smarter and be a better criminal.

 

BTW, it's pretty hilarious that you complain about wasting hours to get something stupid powerful when most criminals go around robbing people for things they also spent time acquiring. Why do people like you and OP believe you should have complete control over a situation and have to right to always win? If you get caught take the loss and get better.

[Linden]

26 minutes ago, Hoxton_Curry said:

your second point makes no sense to me

me use less word. you shoot cop big army gun and win. is no no. you rob fishy from man is no no.

[ViktorR]

I think this new thing adds more additional RP with PD BUT I believe a couple of things need to be done about it, because:
1. the amount of ammunition you can order now is really ridiculous.
2.  Now as PD getting information about the incoming imports it is, even more, harder to get the ammo. 
3. It is impossible to injure a SWAT member, as everyone has noticed now probably, there is A LOT OF SWATS these days.

My Offer, keep the new thing about informing the PD about the imports, but:
1. Let criminals import more ammo (can be the same as was before).
2. Nerf swat officers, because if you see 5 swat members, what you can do is just run, even if you have 15 guys with you. 

Before there weren't so many SWAT operatives and it was understandable why you can't easily injure them, but now there is a lot of them and it would be nice if they would be nerfed. As for my eyes, it doesn't seem realistic, when you need 5-6 guys with heavy guns to injure a swat guy.  

[flow]

5 minutes ago, ViktorR said:

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, ViktorR said:

2. Nerf swat officers, because if you see 5 swat members, what you can do is just run, even if you have 15 guys with you. 

Before there weren't so many SWAT operatives and it was understandable why you can't easily injure them, but now there is a lot of them and it would be nice if they would be nerfed. As for my eyes, it doesn't seem realistic, when you need 5-6 guys with heavy guns to injure a swat guy.  

That's not true though. You can down SWAT operatives without having to have 5 people empty clips into them. Naturally, a SWAT Team is better equipped in terms of protection compared to a criminal, but training, organization and a plan go a lot further than just armor itself. I'd argue that if you give criminals the same armor as SWAT and they'd have a fight, SWAT would come out on top as often as now. You can't script or equip skill and training. 

[ViktorR]

 

 

 

2

6 hours ago, HaminLord said:

Now to this, you'd be surprised. But we've already been outsmarted. More than once.

We've already had a few imports in which we're too late to catch the suspects, and when we do. They've already stashed the weapons away, meaning we cannot arrest them without solid proof.

You want to outsmart us? Get a few vehicles, each one driving around the area to confuse us. 

You want to counter or prevent this? Get a small convoy going on, get some people in trucks or vans. Protect whoever is carrying the import by ramming us, blocking us or etcetera.

There is RP going on. Everytime we receive a notification for an import, we group up. Usually send a detective to scout the area, get a few SWAT on standby. Get a helicopter up in the air to provide overwatch and useful information and etcetera.

RP between PD and Criminals isn't extremely that high quality sometimes as I'm sure you know. I'm sure getting informants into gangs can help etcetera, but doing so. Might as well let us know about every import you order.

 

Sorry for the double post, but I want to reply to @HaminLord  post.

I agree with you, you can organize and do that, but with the imports (how many things you can order at one time) it is not worth to do that. As I have mentioned before in my upper post, there needs to be made changes with the imports, because now, you can order a really low amount of things and it is not worth risking by organizing something like that. 

Also as I said in my upper post, the swat needs to be nerfed, because it is really impossible to fight with SWATS, especially when in this kind of operations there is like 10-12 of SWAT and some officers around, so basically we need half of the server to even get a chance to succeed. 

[Fa1N]

8 minutes ago, ViktorR said:

2. Nerf swat officers, because if you see 5 swat members, what you can do is just run, even if you have 15 guys with you. 
 

That's not what SWAT is for. SWAT are members of highly trained paramilitary units that tackle situations beyond the capability of conventional Police forces. SWAT teams are called in when an incident presents significant risk to law enforcement officers of the public. You are not suppose to engage with them, that's highly trained officers that will not hesitate to shoot you if you are a threat. You are suppose to run.

[flow]

1 minute ago, Hoxton_Curry said:

This is somewhat true,  I dont think you need 6 people against 1 swat member ( unless you're all using normal pistol?) but I agree with you that there is way too many swat and I feel like it's too easy to get into swat 

I'm sorry but how is this even an argument? The PD has well over 100 members, a fraction of which are active SWAT members. I'm not sure why you would assume that there needs to be a limit on members. You don't see anyone in PD arguing there's too many zeta members or any other faction. In fact, you don't see very many PD members complaining about gangs at all. Just because they're more organized and better trained, they shouldn't be nerfed.... 

[ViktorR]

Just now, Fa1N said:

That's not what SWAT is for. SWAT are members of highly trained paramilitary units that tackle situations beyond the capability of conventional Police forces. SWAT teams are called in when an incident presents significant risk to law enforcement officers of the public. You are not suppose to engage with them, that's highly trained officers that will not hesitate to shoot you if you are a threat. You are suppose to run.

I know what SWAT is and everything is fine with it. But spraying 30-50 AK bullets straight to one SWAT member and he is still standing, for me, it is unrealistic and overpowered. There will be people who will agree with me and there will be people who will not agree with me. As I said before, everything was good when there weren't so many swat people, but now? There are too many of them and with the desync, hitboxes and etc. going 5 vs 1  and swat still stay alive. You need to keep in mind that SWAT behind the armor is a normal person, not god or superhuman.

[Fa1N]

1 minute ago, Hoxton_Curry said:

We have a member limit, I'm not saying there should be a member limit on PD but I do think that there should be one for swat

Isn't this IC issue? More heavy weapon imports, more force to deal with it.

[flow]

So basically you're all saying the PD is doing a great job and has developed into a stronger, more organized, better trained and smarter faction than all the criminal factions. Well, I'm sure the PD appreciates those kind words! lol

[alexalex303]

9 minutes ago, ViktorR said:

I know what SWAT is and everything is fine with it. But spraying 30-50 AK bullets straight to one SWAT member and he is still standing, for me, it is unrealistic and overpowered. There will be people who will agree with me and there will be people who will not agree with me. As I said before, everything was good when there weren't so many swat people, but now? There are too many of them and with the desync, hitboxes and etc. going 5 vs 1  and swat still stay alive. You need to keep in mind that SWAT behind the armor is a normal person, not god or superhuman.

Don't spray at SWAT, run away from SWAT. It's much more unrealistic to try to go toe to toe with SWAT than them having level 3A armor.

[Bala]

It's alright, you can only go to prison for a max of two hours anyway. 

[ViktorR]

17 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

Don't spray at SWAT, run away from SWAT. It's much more unrealistic to try to go toe to toe with SWAT than them having level 3A armor.

There are some situations where there is no other way and when that happens - you know that you instantly gonna lose because you don't have an RPG or Machine Gun to even injure a person with only ARMOR. 

As you are talking about 3A armor, here is a video for you about 3A+ armor, imagine spraying all clip to that. 

Either way, I am ending this discussion, because now it feels like fighting with cops in forums

[Cutesader]

Strongly agree with this! +1