Clarification/Suggestion Regarding Forced Stabilization After Police Shootouts

[frezeli]

I would like to suggest a specific rule against forced stabilization/treatment after shootouts, especially where police shoot and down suspects and then use medical RP or /stabilize mainly to keep the suspect alive for arrest and imprisonment.

The issue is not that police should be unable to provide treatment. They obviously can and should be allowed to attempt treatment where it makes sense. The issue is that the outcome of that treatment should not be controlled by the same officers who just shot the suspect and now have an obvious interest in keeping that suspect alive only to process charges and send them to prison.

In my view, once a player is downed and injury RP begins, the consequences of treatment should depend entirely on the injured/downed player’s response through /do. Police or medics should be able to attempt treatment, but they should not be able to force a successful stabilization where the injured player is roleplaying serious or catastrophic injuries. For example, if a player is downed after multiple gunshot wounds and responds through /do that the injuries are severe, life-threatening, or not realistically treatable on scene, that response should control the RP and if it is felt that the response is being abused in bad faith, forum reports are always a thing.

Otherwise, this becomes Powergaming. The officer is effectively forcing the injured player into a medical outcome that benefits PD, regardless of the injuries being roleplayed, just so the suspect can be imprisoned. That removes the injured player’s ability to properly roleplay the consequences of being shot and turns /stabilize into a custody tool rather than a medical RP tool.

I am not suggesting that suspects should be allowed to avoid consequences by instantly forcing death every time they are caught. That would also be poor RP. The suggestion is simply that police should not be allowed to force survival either. Both sides should be required to RP the situation fairly, and the injured player’s /do response should be respected unless it is clearly unreasonable.

This would still allow PD and EMS to treat suspects properly, but it would stop the unrealistic practice of shooting someone, forcing them to survive, and then immediately using that forced survival to jail them.

[Josh]

-1, I hate to say it but many people would abuse this to die and get away from their IC Consiquences and imprisonment.

I agree roleplay wise should still be done and should not be stopped just becuase /stabilize is done. And players should do proper RP with each side but people can't be just rping their death.

Edited Saturday at 01:06 PM by Josh

[frezeli]

43 minutes ago, Josh said:

-1, I hate to say it but many people would abuse this to die and get away from their IC Consiquences and imprisonment.

I agree roleplay wise should still be done and should not be stopped just becuase /stabilize is done. And players should do proper RP with each side but people can't be just rping their death.

I get that concern, but that is not really what I am suggesting.

I am not saying players should be allowed to just RP death whenever they want to avoid jail. That would obviously be abused and should still be punishable if done in bad faith. My point is more about the opposite problem, which is that PD should also not be able to force survival every single time after shooting someone just because they want to process charges.

There has to be a middle ground. If the injuries being roleplayed are reasonable and serious, especially after multiple GSWs or shots to vital areas, then the outcome of treatment should not be decided only by the officer who shot the person. The officer can attempt treatment, EMS can attempt treatment, but the injured player’s /do response HAS to matter. If the injured player is clearly abusing it just to escape consequences, staff can deal with that as Non-RP/poor RP. But if PD is forcing stabilization despite severe injury RP just to jail someone every single time as a matter of routine, that is clearly the definition of Forced RP & Powergaming.

So I’m not asking for “let criminals die to avoid prison.” I’m asking for “don’t let police force a successful medical outcome every time for custody purposes.” Both sides should have to RP it properly, and if either side abuses it, staff should step in.

[HobGoblin]

I wonder if you ever want to die due to your injures when your friends are trying to save you after a gang shootout.

[Demonmit1]

Law enforcement has a justifiable bias to preserve life and try to ensure you face consequences for your actions.
Criminal players have a bias to die and respawn to avoid prison time and fines.

Subjective text-based RP will never be a valid solution if you want something fair. If you want something fair in all situations, there needs to be a scripted medical system that is in effect every time you're injured, no matter if it's a gang fight, a shootout with cops, or screwing around with friends that ends in an injury in a parking lot.

 

Edited Saturday at 03:50 PM by Demonmit1

[Demonmit1]

19 minutes ago, HobGoblin said:

I wonder if you ever want to die due to your injures when your friends are trying to save you after a gang shootout.

people chose the outcome that's the most beneficial to them. want to avoid repercussions of your actions? deny all treatment attempts, then crash out in /ooc that you were force stabilized. want to live after a fight? make the injury as basic as possible and accept a 1-2 word /me RP, if there is even any RP done at all. I'd be shocked to see that staff actually audit criminal players use of the /CPR command to the same level they audit law enforcement commands usage. 

1 hour ago, frezeli said:

There has to be a middle ground. If the injuries being roleplayed are reasonable and serious, especially after multiple GSWs or shots to vital areas, then the outcome of treatment should not be decided only by the officer who shot the person.

it goes both ways. the amount of lengthy /me text RP medical RP i do in basically every situation treating a downed suspect is about a 50/50 chance the criminal player crashes out in /ooc about getting force treated after they continually deny the treatment, or they just copy/paste the /mywounds text list and dont actually attempt any creative roleplay. once they're in prison, they're straight to AFK standing in a corner, or start farming stamps for money, mining, sprinting around picking up litter etc. Its hypocritical to expect high levels of realistic roleplay with medical treatment but then go on with your day not roleplaying the injuries you claimed to sustain. This isnt a dig at you or any specific person, its just the state of the server, this isnt a high roleplay server, and those interactions are something you shouldn't expect to happen. for most of the people that play, this is a cops and robbers server with roleplay-esque rules. there are some roleplayers and realistic elements, but its few and far between these days.

[frezeli]

51 minutes ago, HobGoblin said:

I wonder if you ever want to die due to your injures when your friends are trying to save you after a gang shootout.

You’re missing the point again.

This is not about whether someone wants to die when their friends are trying to save them. The same principle should apply in gang shootouts too. If your friends are trying to treat you, your injury RP should still matter. Nobody should be able to just ignore the downed player’s RP and force whatever outcome benefits them.

The issue is that PD can shoot someone, then immediately skip over the injured player’s consent/response to whether the treatment actually works, and force survival because they want to jail them.

If a player abuses injury RP just to avoid consequences, staff can deal with that. But the solution cannot be to let the other side completely disregard the player’s RP and decide the medical outcome for them.

Maybe reread the suggestion, a few more reads should help get some clarity haha.

[frezeli]

46 minutes ago, Demonmit1 said:

Law enforcement has a justifiable bias to preserve life and try to ensure you face consequences for your actions.
Criminal players have a bias to die and respawn to avoid prison time and fines.

Subjective text-based RP will never be a valid solution if you want something fair. If you want something fair in all situations, there needs to be a scripted medical system that is in effect every time you're injured, no matter if it's a gang fight, a shootout with cops, or screwing around with friends that ends in an injury in a parking lot.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Demonmit1 said:

people chose the outcome that's the most beneficial to them. want to avoid repercussions of your actions? deny all treatment attempts, then crash out in /ooc that you were force stabilized. want to live after a fight? make the injury as basic as possible and accept a 1-2 word /me RP, if there is even any RP done at all. I'd be shocked to see that staff actually audit criminal players use of the /CPR command to the same level they audit law enforcement commands usage. 

it goes both ways. the amount of lengthy /me text RP medical RP i do in basically every situation treating a downed suspect is about a 50/50 chance the criminal player crashes out in /ooc about getting force treated after they continually deny the treatment, or they just copy/paste the /mywounds text list and dont actually attempt any creative roleplay. once they're in prison, they're straight to AFK standing in a corner, or start farming stamps for money, mining, sprinting around picking up litter etc. Its hypocritical to expect high levels of realistic roleplay with medical treatment but then go on with your day not roleplaying the injuries you claimed to sustain. This isnt a dig at you or any specific person, its just the state of the server, this isnt a high roleplay server, and those interactions are something you shouldn't expect to happen. for most of the people that play, this is a cops and robbers server with roleplay-esque rules. there are some roleplayers and realistic elements, but its few and far between these days.

Honestly, I think the scripted medical system point is a solid suggestion. If someone gets shot, there could be scripted text showing where the bullets landed. That would remove a lot of the subjective back-and-forth from both sides.

But until something like that exists, the current problem still remains. The issue is the practice PD has adopted where they shoot/down a suspect and then force medical RP mainly to preserve charges and put the person in jail. That is not really “preserving life” in an RP sense, it is preserving custody.

I agree that criminal players can abuse injury RP to avoid consequences. But PD also abuses /stabilize and treatment RP to force consequences as we speak. Both things can be true. The answer cannot be that one side’s abuse is treated seriously while the other side’s abuse is basically normalized because it leads to prison time.

If someone is giving completely unreasonable /do responses just to die and avoid jail, staff should deal with that. But if PD is ignoring serious injury RP, skipping over the injured player’s response, and forcing a successful outcome because they want to jail the person, that is also Non-RP/Powergaming.

The point is not “criminals should always get to die.” The point is that PD should not automatically get to decide that every suspect survives either. Until there is a scripted system, both sides’ RP should matter, not just the side trying to process charges.

[NotMattch]

I see this thread is already turning into a "PD bad wah" response as evidenced by statements such as:

Quote

 

"especially where police shoot and down suspects and then use medical RP or /stabilize mainly to keep the suspect alive for arrest and imprisonment."

"The officer is effectively forcing the injured player into a medical outcome that benefits PD"

"PD should also not be able to force survival every single time after shooting someone just because they want to process charges. "

"But if PD is forcing stabilization despite severe injury RP just to jail someone every single time as a matter of routine, that is clearly the definition of Forced RP & Powergaming."

"The issue is that PD can shoot someone, then immediately skip over the injured player’s consent/response to whether the treatment actually works, and force survival because they want to jail them."

"But if PD is ignoring serious injury RP, skipping over the injured player’s response, and forcing a successful outcome because they want to jail the person, that is also Non-RP/Powergaming."

 

So lets nip this in the bud immediately, I specfically want to call out the following statement as well:

Quote

The issue is the practice PD has adopted where they shoot/down a suspect and then force medical RP mainly to preserve charges and put the person in jail. That is not really “preserving life” in an RP sense, it is preserving custody.

 

This thread is full of incorrect assumptions.  Anyone who has played for the length of time I have knows full well that this has absolutely nothing to do with LEO "adopting" a practice or "forcing rp and powergaming because they want to jail them".  This has been a long-standing RP that has had staff approval since 2017.  In fact, history lesson time,  before around 2020, PD & MD didn't even need to know your injuries before using stabilize and were actually permitted to arrive on scene, stabilize everyone injured and then go back around and actually treat the injuries.  This was changed around 2020, at a scene I was, funnily enough, actually leading the response to on the MD side, when a large gang fight erupted at Triad HQ and there was an overwhelming amount of injuries from both sides.  The ruling was made during this scene and became set into precedent thereafter that MD and LEO need to at a minimum know the injuries before running the stabilize command to allow others the chance of bleeding out.  

We also used to permit DeathRP with staff approval, where if someone was actually RPing decent enough, with the agreement of those on scene and the agreement of the staff overseeing the person, they could RP their death based on their injuries. I myself used this system and had it approved several times.  This was eventually removed, for reasons I'm not aware of, as I wasn't staff at the time.

 

The long-standing problem of the past few years is that the majority of the time you turn up to treat injuries, you get 0 RP response.  You turn up, start medical RP either from an MD or LEO perspective and get the absolute bare minimum of "/do GSW" because the guy that got shot is salty that they died.  This isn't exclusively a Crim or LEO issue; I've had this from both sides. MD provides medical RP to just get a string of "/do yes" "/do able", not RP at all because they just don't care to engage with it and are super salty now that they aren't going to die.  This also assumes the moment you arrive to actually do something, you didn't immediately get hit with "/pm wtf bro y u stabilize me" or "/do GSW to head" or "/do would be dead".

 

 

Anyways, history lesson aside, I do agree to an extent with the suggestion but not in the current setup of the server at all.  As stated above, text-based RP and relying on the other party to be fair just doesn't work, as correctly stated above, Crims want to die, LEOs want to save.  There's an inherent conflict of interest here where one side has to be willing to "lose", which we all know isn't going to happen.

 

What I would like to see on the wishlist of items is exactly what you guys said above.  A scripted medical system.

 

Look at other servers and platforms and the medical systems they provide, where injuries are scripted based on the damage taken, how the damage was taken and where the damage was taken.  They then have to treat the injuries correctly with the right tools and equipment, i.e., blood loss from a GSW has to be resolved with a transfusion, the wound itself has to be stabilized with the correct amount of bandaging or even resolved by going through surgery where it's stitched up, etc.  Some injuries require monitoring as they aren't just fixed and you walk out based on how severe they are and do have some after effects.  One server I'm aware of has about 25 different medical items that all perform various functions.  Now I'm not saying we need 25 different items, but this is an example of how in-depth you can make the system. Obviously, it can be adjusted to fit the server better.

Additionally, this actually gives MD some much-needed love.  MD hasn't changed at all (excluding vehicles, MLO) since I joined back in 2019, it's been the exact same system forever.

If anyone wants to see a really in-depth system, go look up the Ace3 medical system in Arma 3

[Demonmit1]

31 minutes ago, NotMattch said:

If anyone wants to see a really in-depth system, go look up the Ace3 medical system in Arma 3

That's exactly what I base my medical RP I do when I'm treating someone as a cop. But I also give the level of RP that I get. If someone just puts /do GSW, I just do "/me puts a tourniquet on the limb with the wound, pulling it tight" and then /cpr, as any argument against that being adequate enough RP to keep someone from bleeding out I ignore or tell them to report me. If someone actually bothers to prep a injury, I'll respond in kind with more detailed medical RP, and sometimes they end up dead cause treating the detailed injuries takes too long. Depending on the person I interact with, it's often a concern that theyre just over complicating the rp and they likely would never do the same would it wouldn't benefit them to die, but I have no immediate way to prove that.

 

3 hours ago, frezeli said:

The point is that PD should not automatically get to decide that every suspect survives either.

If you believe the RP isn't adequate, keep playing along as you're expected to, but make an in game report. Make sure you have a history of always having high quality medical RP to justify your complaint of someone's else's RP. You gotta make sure you hold yourself to the same standards you're wanting to hold law enforcement to. If you somehow are, you'd be one of the only ones... Lol

 

Also, just wanted to explain a game mechanic. Law enforcement are scriptly unable to /stabilize if an EMS member is online. It pops up an error saying we can't use the command due to EMS being online. If there is no EMS, then we have access to the command. /Cpr is the command all LEO and anyone with a BLS license has access to. This isn't a permanent stabilizer, it pauses your death for ~5 minutes, and needs to be reapplied to keep someone from dying. There are not very many situations I've personally been where as a LEO player I can actually use /stabilize. We normally have to transport or call MD to stabilize at the scene then transport the injured suspect to a hospital.

Edited Saturday at 07:16 PM by Demonmit1

[Eliza]

Most of the time when police shoot you IRL, they will provide treatment to you as fast as they can, watch bodycam videos on youtube of SWAT engaging their suspects. I do think that if there are MD on shift, that they should BLS with /cpr rather than stabilize though so it extends your life rather than just make you immediately good for hours and hours.

[AtlasOLimbo]

4 minutes ago, Eliza said:

Most of the time when police shoot you IRL, they will provide treatment to you as fast as they can, watch bodycam videos on youtube of SWAT engaging their suspects. I do think that if there are MD on shift, that they should BLS with /cpr rather than stabilize though so it extends your life rather than just make you immediately good for hours and hours.

Script as is limits LEOs from using /stabilize when MD is on duty. (or when 2 MD are on duty, something like that.)

[NotMattch]

Just now, AtlasOLimbo said:

Script as is limits LEOs from using /stabilize when MD is on duty. (or when 2 MD are on duty, something like that.)

Can confirm if 2 or more MD are on duty, it restricts /stabilize to MD Only

[frezeli]

I think some of the recent replies actually show why this needs clarification.

I am not trying to turn this into a “PD bad” thread, and I do not think police providing treatment after shooting someone is unrealistic by itself. Of course police should attempt to preserve life. That is not the issue.

The issue is when “attempting treatment” becomes “guaranteeing survival” for custody purposes. There is a difference between trying to save someone and forcing the outcome of that medical RP so the person can be processed and jailed. Realistically, police/EMS can attempt treatment, apply BLS, slow bleeding, etc. But they cannot magically decide that multiple serious GSWs are successfully resolved simply because the person needs to face charges.

The real issue is the practice of forcing RP, literally, which is contrary to the spirit of several rules. If the injured player’s RP and /do responses are being skipped over or treated as irrelevant, then the other side is effectively deciding the outcome for them. That is exactly why it feels like Powergaming/Non-RP. The injured player is not being allowed to properly RP the consequences of being shot, while the treating side is forcing the result that benefits them.

1 hour ago, NotMattch said:

Anyways, history lesson aside, I do agree to an extent with the suggestion but not in the current setup of the server at all.  As stated above, text-based RP and relying on the other party to be fair just doesn't work, as correctly stated above, Crims want to die, LEOs want to save.  There's an inherent conflict of interest here where one side has to be willing to "lose", which we all know isn't going to happen.

I get the conflict of interest point, but that is exactly why the outcome should not be controlled entirely by the side that benefits from it.

LEOs should have an interest in preserving life, not forcing jail time. To clarify, I am not talking about every injury or every downed suspect. I am specifically talking about situations where the injuries being RPed are clearly lethal or catastrophic. In those cases, forcing survival just so the person can be processed feels like the exact conflict of interest this rule should address.

I am also not saying “just let criminals die.” If someone is clearly abusing injury RP just to avoid prison, that can and should be handled. But at the same time, if a person is shot dead in a gunfight, then realistically that is usually the end of the situation. It should not be treated as unacceptable simply because the suspect being dead means they cannot be jailed.

1 hour ago, Demonmit1 said:

But I also give the level of RP that I get. If someone just puts /do GSW, I just do "/me puts a tourniquet on the limb with the wound, pulling it tight" and then /cpr, as any argument against that being adequate enough RP to keep someone from bleeding out I ignore or tell them to report me.

I also do not think PD lowering the quality of their RP because the other player is “salty” is a good justification. If someone gives poor RP, it should not allow the other side to force RP or rush through treatment just to stabilize someone. The standard should not become “they gave basic RP, so I can force the outcome I want.” That just creates the same problem from the other side.

So again, I do not disagree with preserving life. I disagree with forced outcomes. Police/EMS should be able to attempt treatment, and criminals should not be able to force death to dodge consequences. But police/EMS also should not be able to force successful survival just to secure jail time. Both sides’ RP should matter.

[Eliza]

Thank you Matt, I had forgotten what the limit was and thought it was more than 2, I partially retract my last statement and now think MD should be called first before stabilizing, unless it’s already something practiced.

 

Either way if a cop provides treatment people will always deny treatment and give the most detailed injury RP to stall the timer unless it’s a homie treating them after a gang shootout

[frezeli]

35 minutes ago, Eliza said:

Thank you Matt, I had forgotten what the limit was and thought it was more than 2, I partially retract my last statement and now think MD should be called first before stabilizing, unless it’s already something practiced.

 

Either way if a cop provides treatment people will always deny treatment and give the most detailed injury RP to stall the timer unless it’s a homie treating them after a gang shootout

Again, not a justification for Forced RP/Powergaming just to ensure arrests.

[Eliza]

47 minutes ago, frezeli said:

Again, not a justification for Forced RP/Powergaming just to ensure arrests.

I believe I am confused, do you believe it is Powergaming for an officer to treat you and then BLS you until a medic who specializes in treating somebody arrives to take over treatment? I mean this respectfully because I am not sure what you are suggesting without interpreting it as a way to avoid arrests due to dying.

Edited Saturday at 09:32 PM by Eliza

[Cup]

The purpose of bls rp is not meant to be the most detailed medical treatment that fully fixes you. Its only meant to stabilize you long enough to get you to the hospital where you RPLY are treated by ER staff when the script revives you at the hospital.

If you think someone did in fact power game with their RP or /cpr before adequately RPing any treatment or Rping treatment at all then report it.  But you also need to be realistic. This is a video game, we aren't going to expect players to know exactly what to type to RP out treating traumatic injuries all we can expect is a good faith effort to put something that at least somewhat makes sense.

 

[Demonmit1]

This is just going in a circle and OP has a had their concern/questions answered and has ignored the solutions because they disagree with the solutions.

 

Report in game if you believe it's power gaming/non rp.

Law enforcement can't stabilize you in most situations. They're scriptly prevented from it.

Law enforcement are required to request assistance from MD for every scene when someone is injured. If there is no md online, we can /stabilize. we can /cpr to stop you from bleeding out by ~5 minutes to give us enough time to bring you to the hospital or to wait for MD to be available. 

Arguing that criminal players should be allowed a good faith effort to die based on their /do responses to their wounds is a bad faith argument when every attempt to RP wounds from criminals to cops is either /do GSW or 20x GSW or copy/pasting /mywounds so you have "/do 8x gunshots to torso, 3x gunshots to ., 7x gunshots to foot" again is low effort bad faith attempts for a crim player to try and force their death to avoid consequences of their actions. /BLS isn't making you whole again like nothing ever happened, it's just making sure you're not bleeding out before you can get actual treatment at a hospital. If we're able to clean up a gunfight quick enough that we can reasonably secure wounded without continuing to be attacked, you're going to get treated and processed.

Edited Sunday at 03:28 AM by Demonmit1

[padpilot]

Its more bad faith to assume "every" crim has that level of RP. Not all cops rp the same, not all crims rp the same. 

[SneakySniper]

-1