STOP THE BACKUP

[Osborn]

Hi team, contrary to the post above, we are reading this and many others.

I just want to clarify a few things about pagers and the backup rule. The backup rule was never introduced to favor LEOs. It was put in place during a time when larger gangs were forming alliances that pushed other gangs to disband or even leave the server. It was intended as a protective measure to give smaller gangs a fair chance. This is something that could be reviewed again if the need and desire are there, but I believe this is best reviewed and brought up by Faction Services, as they deal with our criminal factions.

Relying on other government entities for support when everyone is down is not feasible or realistic (one can ask, though, is the current climate "realistic"? Or does realism only get evaluated through one lens?). Ideally, there would be additional agencies to call beyond the correctional department or a government security bureau, but we do not have that option. As SD leadership and ECRP management, I am open to working on practical solutions that disallow the response of non-PD/SD , but I cannot promise they will be broadly viable. We would likely have to consider lowering equipment requirements, among other things. Neither SD nor PD aims to win. They do not control what happens; they react to it. For example, ambushes often leave them at a serious IC disadvantage.

Regarding pagers, I am not sure where the major misconception comes from. Roughly 5 to 8 percent of SD, across three different time zones, have access to the pager system. These are SED members who function in a role similar to SWAT. The pager system exists so that IC tactical elements can respond to IC tactical situations. These are individuals with specialized vehicles and equipment who are trained to handle scenarios beyond what regular deputies or officers can manage. Like the backup rule, the pager system can be revisited, but its overall impact is limited due to how few people can use it. Without pagers, we would again need to consider lowering equipment standards, because we have to be able to respond to the IC climate. Not every deputy has access to an assault rifle, and it can take months before someone becomes eligible to use one after joining SD.

I do not believe it is fair to compare this to the backup system or the inability of criminals to use RP pings. The roles are very different. LEOs do not benefit from what they do. They do not initiate shootouts, robberies, or similar situations for personal or financial gain. Their role is to enforce the law and respond to crime. They are not supposed to hurt others financially unless they have been provoked by in-game actions. Comparing that to being unable to call in more players to rob a gang meeting or start a mass shootout does not feel like a one-to-one comparison.

I believe there is a deeper issue that needs to be addressed. Whether it is a mindset issue or something else, I am not entirely sure. Just last night, while we were discussing balance changes with others of ECRP leadership, an incident occurred that made me question things. A criminal gang deployed a gunship during a pursuit and opened fire on officers, and possibly on one or more helicopters. Incidents like this naturally lead to IC responses and adaptations, which have always been the case on the server. PD and SD did not start with the fleets or armories they have today. These things developed over time after many incidents. What we are seeing now feels like an arms race. Especially during NA nights, the amount of PVP directed at LEOs has reached a level that makes it difficult to find a coherent IC response.

I also want to clear up the rumor about 200 or 175 AP. It is not accurate. The same small group with pager access in SD is the only ones who have access to 150 AP. SD and PD leadership specifically chose not to request 200 AP during the uniforms update because they wanted to maintain balance and fairness. The rest typically carry between 50 and 100 AP and are equipped with a handgun, a shotgun, or an SMG.

In any case, I just wanted to check in and say that we are continuing to review what can be balanced. Any changes we make will reflect the behavior of the majority. We are also exploring ways to reduce the focus on PVP and bring in more non-PVP-centric content. Since the changes to labs, a PVP-heavy mindset seems to have grown quickly. Having been through the council era and many phases since, I can honestly say this feels like the peak of PVP-focused mentality.

If you want a better understanding of how PD and SD function, I encourage you to get more involved. Take ride-alongs on alts, try out the factions, ask OOC questions, and learn more. There are many misconceptions, and I think some players do not realize how much effort goes into maintaining fairness and operating within the limits we have. You can even watch live streamers from PD and SD to see raw, uncut content! 

[Osborn]

Feel free to engage with this as well for general changes etc. you'd like to see for your RP! 

[Rosalia Hall]

6 minutes ago, Osborn said:

Hi team, contrary to the post above, we are reading this and many others.

I just want to clarify a few things about pagers and the backup rule. The backup rule was never introduced to favor LEOs. It was put in place during a time when larger gangs were forming alliances that pushed other gangs to disband or even leave the server. It was intended as a protective measure to give smaller gangs a fair chance. This is something that could be reviewed again if the need and desire are there, but I believe this is best reviewed and brought up by Faction Services, as they deal with our criminal factions.

Relying on other government entities for support when everyone is down is not feasible or realistic (one can ask, though, is the current climate "realistic"? Or does realism only get evaluated through one lens?). Ideally, there would be additional agencies to call beyond the correctional department or a government security bureau, but we do not have that option. As SD leadership and ECRP management, I am open to working on practical solutions that disallow the response of non-PD/SD , but I cannot promise they will be broadly viable. We would likely have to consider lowering equipment requirements, among other things. Neither SD nor PD aims to win. They do not control what happens; they react to it. For example, ambushes often leave them at a serious IC disadvantage.

Regarding pagers, I am not sure where the major misconception comes from. Roughly 5 to 8 percent of SD, across three different time zones, have access to the pager system. These are SED members who function in a role similar to SWAT. The pager system exists so that IC tactical elements can respond to IC tactical situations. These are individuals with specialized vehicles and equipment who are trained to handle scenarios beyond what regular deputies or officers can manage. Like the backup rule, the pager system can be revisited, but its overall impact is limited due to how few people can use it. Without pagers, we would again need to consider lowering equipment standards, because we have to be able to respond to the IC climate. Not every deputy has access to an assault rifle, and it can take months before someone becomes eligible to use one after joining SD.

I do not believe it is fair to compare this to the backup system or the inability of criminals to use RP pings. The roles are very different. LEOs do not benefit from what they do. They do not initiate shootouts, robberies, or similar situations for personal or financial gain. Their role is to enforce the law and respond to crime. They are not supposed to hurt others financially unless they have been provoked by in-game actions. Comparing that to being unable to call in more players to rob a gang meeting or start a mass shootout does not feel like a one-to-one comparison.

I believe there is a deeper issue that needs to be addressed. Whether it is a mindset issue or something else, I am not entirely sure. Just last night, while we were discussing balance changes with others of ECRP leadership, an incident occurred that made me question things. A criminal gang deployed a gunship during a pursuit and opened fire on officers, and possibly on one or more helicopters. Incidents like this naturally lead to IC responses and adaptations, which have always been the case on the server. PD and SD did not start with the fleets or armories they have today. These things developed over time after many incidents. What we are seeing now feels like an arms race. Especially during NA nights, the amount of PVP directed at LEOs has reached a level that makes it difficult to find a coherent IC response.

I also want to clear up the rumor about 200 or 175 AP. It is not accurate. The same small group with pager access in SD is the only ones who have access to 150 AP. SD and PD leadership specifically chose not to request 200 AP during the uniforms update because they wanted to maintain balance and fairness. The rest typically carry between 50 and 100 AP and are equipped with a handgun, a shotgun, or an SMG.

In any case, I just wanted to check in and say that we are continuing to review what can be balanced. Any changes we make will reflect the behavior of the majority. We are also exploring ways to reduce the focus on PVP and bring in more non-PVP-centric content. Since the changes to labs, a PVP-heavy mindset seems to have grown quickly. Having been through the council era and many phases since, I can honestly say this feels like the peak of PVP-focused mentality.

If you want a better understanding of how PD and SD function, I encourage you to get more involved. Take ride-alongs on alts, try out the factions, ask OOC questions, and learn more. There are many misconceptions, and I think some players do not realize how much effort goes into maintaining fairness and operating within the limits we have. You can even watch live streamers from PD and SD to see raw, uncut content! 

The issue is, you say PD/SD do not aim to win or that it is a criminal sided PVP mindset causing this issue. I think it needs to be looked into on how PD/SD roleplay has been as well. There has been many times several PD members have aimed to cause a chase, a gunfight, etc out of boredom - their own words. Cops will speed trap right outside known open labs just in hopes they can find a reason to raid it. Things like this get reported and very rarely, anything is done about it. I can only speak for myself on the fact I have been IAing more and more as it's become overly frustrating as a crim. There isn't much for crims to do and if you do try to roleplay any other scenario minus the boring roll lab, shoot, evade, etc. - it is usually shut down immediately by LEOs who could not care less. You take a hostage? You get sniped within 2 minutes. You do a bank? Chances are you're being tazed off a bike. These are the things that need looked into ontop of the backup. I am not saying criminals are these amazing roleplayers because I agree, the server has become mainly PVP on all sides. Everyone's guilty - not just crims.

[Osborn]

4 minutes ago, Rosalia Hall said:

The issue is, you say PD/SD do not aim to win or that it is a criminal sided PVP mindset causing this issue. I think it needs to be looked into on how PD/SD roleplay has been as well. There has been many times several PD members have aimed to cause a chase, a gunfight, etc out of boredom - their own words. Cops will speed trap right outside known open labs just in hopes they can find a reason to raid it. Things like this get reported and very rarely, anything is done about it. I can only speak for myself on the fact I have been IAing more and more as it's become overly frustrating as a crim. There isn't much for crims to do and if you do try to roleplay any other scenario minus the boring roll lab, shoot, evade, etc. - it is usually shut down immediately by LEOs who could not care less. You take a hostage? You get sniped within 2 minutes. You do a bank? Chances are you're being tazed off a bike. These are the things that need looked into ontop of the backup. I am not saying criminals are these amazing roleplayers because I agree, the server has become mainly PVP on all sides. Everyone's guilty - not just crims.

The PVP mentality exists on both ends, I am sorry if my message was conveyed in a way that it wasn't. Can you quote a report of a cop camping outside a lab in a speed trap that was investigated and concluded for me? So I can look at it as well. Edit: Or send me a link if it was done here on the forums. 

[Rosalia Hall]

3 minutes ago, Osborn said:

The PVP mentality exists on both ends, I am sorry if my message was conveyed in a way that it wasn't. Can you quote a report of a cop camping outside a lab in a speed trap that was investigated and concluded for me? So I can look at it as well. Edit: Or send me a link if it was done here on the forums. 

Unsure if they were done on the forums - the ones I have been involved in were in game or even if you look at any of the reports on PD/SD recently regarding labs, including the most recent one. I understand doing investigations and such but I feel like a more defined line of what is acceptable "investigating" vs trying to find a reason to raid a lab is needed. I personally have been involved when I was a ride along or as PD where they are just spam tracking gang rosters and the second they find one in a lab location, they are "investigating". I know the current mindset of crims is anything to do with cops is "not worth it" because of the lack of roleplay we are receiving and the W mindset we do face. A lot of crims won't even report as they feel it will go nowhere, the same with IAs and roleplay feedback.

[Clank]

On 5/25/2025 at 10:39 PM, Lincoln Derose said:

this is just not true, it was once 200 AP and now it is 175.

What armor model has 175 armor value attached to it?

[Earl Mud]

To add to cops speed trapping outside labs just go to the intersection crossover from Sea Lab to Braddox. Almost always a cop or 2 there speed trapping. 

Issue with crim pvp is at the end of the day its the only way to achieve a reward. Crim rp that's fun you go in debt for if you aren't already stacked.  Also people end up doing pvp to protect themselves since making money as a crim your chances of being hands is almost everytime you go to a chop spot or lab. Even people are camping house robberies now which i still dont understand why that's not metagaming.

 

If there's a way to make non violent crim rp rewarding it'd hopefully lower pvp. My funnest rp moments as a crim was me giving out loads of drugs to people  at events but that cost so much time and money to do its not worth doing often. 

Edited May 27, 2025 by Earl Mud

[Clank]

I think the big misconception is that PVP is inherently bad for roleplay servers. Tell me why the highest standard of roleplay in terms of GTA 5 servers is heavily linked to PVP and has extremely light deathmatching rules. They don't even have VOIP. 

 

The problem is the character development and player mentality. Look at the vehicles people choose to drive, Tell me why on serious RP servers there is character quality staff teams that ensure players are not grinding assets or driving vehicles that don't fit their character. You don't see a street criminal driving in an expensive car. You don't see a mobster driving Japanese import cars. You don't see people hopping from gang to gang, changing their skin color. Character Kills can be applied for by rival characters and are even FORCED if you break FearRP rules. 

The whole point is playing a role. Not grinding or getting attached to assets.

[Marksy]

1 minute ago, Clank said:

I think the big misconception is that PVP is inherently bad for roleplay servers. Tell me why the highest standard of roleplay in terms of GTA 5 servers is heavily linked to PVP and has extremely light deathmatching rules. They don't even have VOIP. 

 

The problem is the character development and player mentality. Look at the vehicles people choose to drive, Tell me why on serious RP servers there is character quality staff teams that ensure players are not grinding assets or driving vehicles that don't fit their character. You don't see a street criminal driving in an expensive car. You don't see a mobster driving Japanese import cars. You don't see people hopping from gang to gang, changing their skin color. Character Kills can be applied for by rival characters and are even FORCED if you break FearRP rules. 

The whole point is playing a role. Not grinding or getting attached to assets.

I mean it's not bad by any stretch there needs to be some PVP, but there are large batches of the player base that log in, will never not have a weapon in their possession, message all their friends on discord to hop on, roll labs and shoot/rob anything that breathes. 

Some of them will pretend they're here for more by hosting an event once every 6 months and then the second the event is over they're back to rolling labs, the PVP mentality is laughable in this server at times, there needs to be more support for players to do other things but it is a problem. 

[Clank]

21 minutes ago, Marksy said:

I mean it's not bad by any stretch there needs to be some PVP, but there are large batches of the player base that log in, will never not have a weapon in their possession, message all their friends on discord to hop on, roll labs and shoot/rob anything that breathes. 

Some of them will pretend they're here for more by hosting an event once every 6 months and then the second the event is over they're back to rolling labs, the PVP mentality is laughable in this server at times, there needs to be more support for players to do other things but it is a problem. 

Nah I agree, It is a heavy extreme on eclipse in particular. I also agree there should be more than just labs as content. Such as a storyline of actual engaging heists with fun and challenging game mechanics.

[Harveyyy]

On 5/27/2025 at 11:50 PM, Clank said:

The problem is the character development and player mentality. Look at the vehicles people choose to drive, Tell me why on serious RP servers there is character quality staff teams that ensure players are not grinding assets or driving vehicles that don't fit their character. You don't see a street criminal driving in an expensive car. You don't see a mobster driving Japanese import cars. You don't see people hopping from gang to gang, changing their skin color. Character Kills can be applied for by rival characters and are even FORCED if you break FearRP rules. 

The whole point is playing a role. Not grinding or getting attached to assets.

You’ve just described GTA World. This isn’t GTA World and never will be in terms of RP standards. Both sides here have a PvP mentality so it sounds a bit biased to blame one side and praise the other.

Let me give you an example. Gang A is full of PvPers, and they decide that today, they’re gonna clap every cop they see just for the memes and the laughs. PD responds by importing MK2 heavies. Cool, now the shit starts. Other gangs, ones that aren’t even beefing with PD like that, are getting wiped. Why? Because one cop with a Carbine MK2 can drop two crims with .50s in a heartbeat. 

Now that gang’s pissed. They keep losing pistols, getting arrested, and serving jailtime. So what do they do? They do exactly the same, they start bringing in MK2s themselves. And suddenly, every gang starts feeling the pressure to match that firepower. It’s a ripple effect. Meanwhile, DOC is still garbage for a bunch of reasons, and nobody wants to spend time there. In the end, everyone is rolling with heavies.

So the question is, who’s really to blame here? The clapper gang that started the war for the fun of it? Or the cops who kept using MK2s even after the heat died down? 

[Phantas]

5 hours ago, Harveyyy said:

You’ve just described GTA World. This isn’t GTA World and never will be in terms of RP standards. Both sides here have a PvP mentality so it sounds a bit biased to blame one side and praise the other.

Let me give you an example. Gang A is full of PvPers, and they decide that today, they’re gonna clap every cop they see just for the memes and the laughs. PD responds by importing MK2 heavies. Cool, now the shit starts. Other gangs, ones that aren’t even beefing with PD like that, are getting wiped. Why? Because one cop with a Carbine MK2 can drop two crims with .50s in a heartbeat. 

Now that gang’s pissed. They keep losing pistols, getting arrested, and serving jailtime. So what do they do? They do exactly the same, they start bringing in MK2s themselves. And suddenly, every gang starts feeling the pressure to match that firepower. It’s a ripple effect. Meanwhile, DOC is still garbage for a bunch of reasons, and nobody wants to spend time there. In the end, everyone is rolling with heavies.

So the question is, who’s really to blame here? The clapper gang that started the war for the fun of it? Or the cops who kept using MK2s even after the heat died down? 

I think clank didnt say the server name due a history of bans being handed out for server advertisement if mentioning anther server by name but I definitely think your correct with the once a tool is introduced to combat something specific it ends up staying and be used against what it wasn't originally for causing a chain reaction

[Ritchie Stones]

1 hour ago, Phantas said:

I think clank didnt say the server name due a history of bans being handed out for server advertisement if mentioning anther server by name but I definitely think your correct with the once a tool is introduced to combat something specific it ends up staying and be used against what it wasn't originally for causing a chain reaction

i was alreayd laughing at the point they decided to make the guns cheaper and make it an update, later they removed private labs, later they opened more public labs ? like... how could they not see this mess coming 

[Diligo]

2 hours ago, Ritchie Stones said:

i was alreayd laughing at the point they decided to make the guns cheaper and make it an update, later they removed private labs, later they opened more public labs ? like... how could they not see this mess coming 

guns made cheaper and private labs closing to get more interactions, but it turns out it comes out as more fighting..
People who are put RP first are the ones who were forced into different type of roleplay. The PvP roleplay

Bring back private labs!!!!!

[Ritchie Stones]

On 5/31/2025 at 4:00 AM, Diligo said:

guns made cheaper and private labs closing to get more interactions, but it turns out it comes out as more fighting..
People who are put RP first are the ones who were forced into different type of roleplay. The PvP roleplay

Bring back private labs!!!!!

YES !! BRING US BACK THE PRIVATE LABS OR WE SHALL RIOT !!

- but serious though, at least back then some people started a gang for the bussiness side of kt and they actualy did rp for it. There was also pvp gangs but there was a devide. 

[HobGoblin]

1 hour ago, Ritchie Stones said:

YES !! BRING US BACK THE PRIVATE LABS OR WE SHALL RIOT !!

- but serious though, at least back then some people started a gang for the bussiness side of kt and they actualy did rp for it. There was also pvp gangs but there was a devide. 

Idk how private labs have anything to do with this topic but you must be inside one to think it brought any RP other than AFK money farming. 

[alexalex303]

Private labs allowed you to avoid pvp just like they allowed you to be immune to law enforcement, raids, or any price that is too high as you could just print infinite money in an interior. 

Should never come back in any way shape nor form.

[Cup]

This conversation is very rapidly getting off track please keep it on topic

[CalvinKlein]

we need more community meetings to have open discussions and suggestions with the majority accross the board and try and work together as a community to find middle grounds where people are mostly happy and the game can be fun.

[Birdy]

7 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

Private labs allowed you to avoid pvp just like they allowed you to be immune to law enforcement, raids, or any price that is too high as you could just print infinite money in an interior. 

Should never come back in any way shape nor form.

Okay not necessarily though, i’ve personally raided private labs before and have been raided by PD, private labs yea was extremely good money but there was never no risk of it being raided by people or law enforcement. 

[Earl Mud]

Maybe private labs but make it limited to where its not as good as regular labs. Regular labs you can make a fuck ton an hour. So maybe for private it limited to 1 table in an rv and only blunts or something. Blunts require double the plants so you still will have to be out picking and growing. Maybe add 50% to the time compared to lab table to help with balance. So now you can choose hey make quarter of the money indoors or risk it making way more out at a lab. This gives more options for risk vs reward. 

[Danny_V]

13 minutes ago, Earl Mud said:

Maybe private labs but make it limited to where its not as good as regular labs. Regular labs you can make a fuck ton an hour. So maybe for private it limited to 1 table in an rv and only blunts or something. Blunts require double the plants so you still will have to be out picking and growing. Maybe add 50% to the time compared to lab table to help with balance. So now you can choose hey make quarter of the money indoors or risk it making way more out at a lab. This gives more options for risk vs reward. 

According to the title of this thread, the topic isn't private labs.

If you want to talk about that, maybe you could make a separate thread..
It would greatly help to keep things on-topic.

[Earl Mud]

13 minutes ago, Danny_V said:

According to the title of this thread, the topic isn't private labs.

If you want to talk about that, maybe you could make a separate thread..
It would greatly help to 

The thread lead to that I was just following the recent comments 

Edited June 2, 2025 by Earl Mud