Robbing At House Robberies

[SteakHappy]

There should be some rules in-place regarding robbing players robbing houses.

Firstly, this would never happen IRL. When would people show up to a house being robbed and rob the robber? 

Secondly, as it stands, the House Robbery UI is currently the ONLY UI that is allowed to be used as in-game knowledge at this point. Seeing "House robbery" on a door and knowing it is a house robbery, imo, is basically metagaming. 

Lastly, people currently know what time houses are being robbed and hunt the houses at that time. The "it's random" claim just isn't true, as there are only certain houses that can be assigned as house robberies, usually in vinewood hills, chumash, or just south of the bank around Caesar's place. This makes basically 0 sense.

Arguments for the way it currently is:

"The lock would be noticeably broken." - No, it wouldn't be. That is not how picking a lock works.

"There would be broken lockpicks on the ground." - Not if the first one was successful.

"The door would be ajar." - Well, not unless the robber was incredibly dumb.

"They can see your vehicle in the driveway." - Firstly, not true, as I park my vehicle multiple houses down. Secondly, a vehicle in a driveway does not = house robbery.


My suggestion for the rules are simple.

Make sure there is a REASON for the door to be checked. Ex: You are followed leaving the robbery broker. Or you are seen lockpicking. Maybe even add a script for broken lockpicks to be found on the ground if the first pick isn't successful.

 

 

In practice, about 4 of 10 house robberies end up being foiled by gang members just checking doors at this point. This seems against the spirit of RP as a whole, as it is fully unrealistic, and it also ruins the only real solo way to make money as a criminal.

 

Edited August 24, 2024 by SteakHappy

[ryze09]

Agreed changes need to be made

[Quietthecutie]

+1

This was brought up previously, and the same reasoning given, and I still 110% agree with it. searching for house robberies and using things like the UI or cars outside a a property as reasoning that a house robbery is occuring is NRP. youre using knowlege of ooc game mechanics to infulence your characters actions. It should not be permitted. 

Now if you actually see a bunch of masked individuals entering a house with boxes in the dead of night, thats different. but that dosent happen nearly as often.

[David Coast]

As someone who attempted to focus on criminal RP, then getting greeted with getting robbed while robbing. At the end of the day, I believe this whole avenue of RP is strange. The only reason why people rob house robbers is that it's script impossible (I think, defo exploiting though) to use a gun and have a crate in your hands. Therefore when the house robber leaves the house they instantly are put under FRP, alongside the fact that it's a door which goes into a different dimension therefore giving the (wording this, is insane) house robber robber the advantage. 

While I have been a victim and a culprit of robbing house robbers, I still believe it's something that needs to be defined better in the rules. I just believe there are so many different rule breaks in this common scenario such as;

• NRP
• Metagaming
• FearRP 

 

[Soupiestfork]

+1

[averyy]

+1

[Ritchie Stones]

damn... i never done a house robbery, but if this is the mentality of some people or gangs, on the other hand I'm not surprised either,
and it seems to be a constant uphill battle for the server against abuse, like, I understand you are upset that its that easy for you to be taken advantage of in such a way.

and here is the thing, the more strict the server gets on those aspects the less fun it gets actually, but its also fully understanding that things shouldn't happen this way.
i hope something smart is done about it.

the server as I'm almost playing for 4 years,, has climb a long way up fighting such complex mentality by rules and implementations yet, people keep being creative about abuse, 

what helps me letting go more easy is the fact that I signed up for a server full of people trying to outsmart each other, and then reflect by myself by saying, I chose to come here knowing I WIL be taken advantage of, what else did I expect ?" 
 

ecrp been a process of letting go for me 
 

[Eliza]

I personally feel like trying to rob somebody inside of the house during a robbery would be dumb, as it would risk causing noise and getting the police involved by waking up the house owner NPC. However if you get caught slipping and get robbed after the house robbery I don’t personally see an issue.

[Requiem]

I think the better way of going about this is to push for the suggestion of reworking the UI. I posted this on other suggestions already, but if the UI could be eliminated, this wouldn't be an issue any more. Here is my suggestion for how to do that:

• Rather than the UI and the big skull icon marking the robbery, the contract dealer only provides an address, and the player needs to do /setgps [robbery address] to find it, or just find it manually themselves. 
• Add a new command /checkdoor to initiate the robbery or for others to check for signs of forced entry, or just checking if the door is unlocked (this will help in situations aside from just house robberies). To prevent other crims from going around Vinewood hills and spamming this command at every door, there could be a random chance of law enforcement getting an automated call if the command is used on a house that is not currently marked for robbery saying something such as, "The homeowner believes someone is trespassing on their property, trying to break into their front door!"
• Ctrl+x can be used to lockpick the front door, just like with vehicles and added to the new interaction menu that was changed for the license plate removal update. 
• Change the Law Cleanup UI to a command such as /cleanuphouse for police to use to get rid of the robbery contract. This command would of course be restricted to on-duty law enforcement officers. Could also add this to the Ctrl+x menu as an alternative option.

Until any changes are implemented, the topic of the rules surrounding using the UI to rob someone else doing a house robbery has been brought up within the staff team several times over the past few months, each time with the consensus being that using the UI to know that someone is robbing the house is not metagaming, with the argument being that there would be signs of a break in that had occurred. 

[Ofek]

+1

[Hama232]

+1, this happened to me today and this needs to be changed

Edited October 21, 2024 by Hama232

[Normal]

+1 this is why i wont do them anymore

 

[Bullsevil]

+1 i agree with all of this, you will never realistically get robbed while robbing a house, the risk is already there between cops rolling past and someone following you from buying a contract then going to a house, as stated in the suggestion if you are a smart robber, there would never be a door ajar, there would be nothing left outside for cops to find when the home owner wakes up, there are a multitude of reason why this is just Poor RP, i know there are limitations, but a UI should not be allowed to be used icly for house robberies when realistically there would be no evidence left except for everything missing. 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Shane Falkenlove

[Quietthecutie]

This has recently been brought up yet again in forum reports that currently, using things like the WI for a broken lock, or cars outside a property as reasoning for counterrobbing/raiding a house robbery is valid PER CURRENT RULES.

This is something I still maintain to be massively NRP. for the many reasons listed above, including the fact LOCKPICKS are used to open these properties, therefore there would be no visible damage to even a discerning eye...over the years locks take alot of scratches etc even if youre just using your keys... if we uses something else, like drills or torches to break the lock. this would be different.

As for vehicles parked outside...again, we live in a city where the streets are only so clean and clear because script/server limitations mean we dont have many NPC cars. so seeing a couple cars parked outside a property and investigating on that is again, moot. and should not be proper reasoning to check the property. rply the streets would be lined with constant parked cars and traffic.

In short I still find this to be a massive footfall within the servers ruleset and urge admins to take another look at this. I mostly play an LEO these days and therefore have no real stake in this, but I still find it a real problem that discourages people from even trying to engage with this mechanic.

It is, in a single word, Bullshit.

 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[ryze09]

I got robbed the other day and I don’t feel that robbing someone in the middle of a road near multiple houses and near a public road is a place to rob someone and hold guns it’s not realistic. 

[Soupiestfork]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:52 AM, Requiem said:

I think the better way of going about this is to push for the suggestion of reworking the UI. I posted this on other suggestions already, but if the UI could be eliminated, this wouldn't be an issue any more. Here is my suggestion for how to do that:

• Rather than the UI and the big skull icon marking the robbery, the contract dealer only provides an address, and the player needs to do /setgps [robbery address] to find it, or just find it manually themselves. 
• Add a new command /checkdoor to initiate the robbery or for others to check for signs of forced entry, or just checking if the door is unlocked (this will help in situations aside from just house robberies). To prevent other crims from going around Vinewood hills and spamming this command at every door, there could be a random chance of law enforcement getting an automated call if the command is used on a house that is not currently marked for robbery saying something such as, "The homeowner believes someone is trespassing on their property, trying to break into their front door!"
• Ctrl+x can be used to lockpick the front door, just like with vehicles and added to the new interaction menu that was changed for the license plate removal update. 
• Change the Law Cleanup UI to a command such as /cleanuphouse for police to use to get rid of the robbery contract. This command would of course be restricted to on-duty law enforcement officers. Could also add this to the Ctrl+x menu as an alternative option.

Until any changes are implemented, the topic of the rules surrounding using the UI to rob someone else doing a house robbery has been brought up within the staff team several times over the past few months, each time with the consensus being that using the UI to know that someone is robbing the house is not metagaming, with the argument being that there would be signs of a break in that had occurred. 

Extra + 1 this is a good idea.

[Demonmit1]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:52 AM, Requiem said:

each time with the consensus being that using the UI to know that someone is robbing the house is not metagaming, with the argument being that there would be signs of a break in that had occurred. 

the solution to that is just not allowing people to randomly run through vinewood and check the UI's of doors to see if they're an active robbery. that is just pure metagaming. If you're not allowed to use every other menu and UI for IC information, this one shouldnt be allowed either.

robbing house robberies shouldnt be removed, but the idea that people can just run through vinewood hills and check random doors till they find one is so dumb.

if you wanna rob people robbing houses. camp the dealer, track the person as they make the contract purchase, then follow them to their destination. that seems fair. randomly checking for a UI on a door that says "This house is currently being robbed" is straight metagaming, theres no argument against that.

[Diligo]

i agree to original suggestion +1 BUT
while we wait for changes, maybe have a friend that can scout for you?

i love private labs and hope devs bring them back BUT you guys are pushing for solo roleplay adventure. Nobody roleplays alone, so grab a friend to watch over you while you rob an innocent persons house!

roleplay isnt just about grinding them stacks and then driving to car-shows with your itali gto hoping people would notice you and praying that you could get friends that way.
nobody cares, everybody has a friend that already has an itali gto, it is not special.
Anyone can grind one out if they solely commit to grinding and not roleplay. Look at trucker`s job, I basically go there when I don`t want to roleplay at all but just grind. Is that good mentality while being in a roleplay server? it does not even pay that good.
if i want to make stacks, gotta go roleplay and now if you guys want to enforce some stuff so crims could be protected and can solo grind without roleplay - then why dont we bring back private labs?

ALSO!!!
/checkdoor is just a simple copy paste thingy that wouldnt solve anything just make people copy paste the same old doors that had the UI menu previously.
Me and my group of friends always do the roleplay about checking the door with /me and /do and if the UI is removed, then typing simple /checkdoor is not a problem haha. That would actually prevent stalling from the house robbers when they are getting robbed, because then there would be no reason to complain OOCly about a rulebreak.
So maybe yeah, implement it, so roleplay could continue and there would be less /b

"'
If you really wanna fix the problem
stop solo mentality and add friends to the mix. being solo makes you anti-social and also makes you hateful and possibly impacts your roleplay attitude, style and language... this is roleplay server, become social and get some friends!!!

[Quietthecutie]

42 minutes ago, Nikolia said:

i agree to original suggestion +1 BUT
while we wait for changes, maybe have a friend that can scout for you?

i love private labs and hope devs bring them back BUT you guys are pushing for solo roleplay adventure. Nobody roleplays alone, so grab a friend to watch over you while you rob an innocent persons house!

roleplay isnt just about grinding them stacks and then driving to car-shows with your itali gto hoping people would notice you and praying that you could get friends that way.
nobody cares, everybody has a friend that already has an itali gto, it is not special.
Anyone can grind one out if they solely commit to grinding and not roleplay. Look at trucker`s job, I basically go there when I don`t want to roleplay at all but just grind. Is that good mentality while being in a roleplay server? it does not even pay that good.
if i want to make stacks, gotta go roleplay and now if you guys want to enforce some stuff so crims could be protected and can solo grind without roleplay - then why dont we bring back private labs?
 

unworkable tbh.

Simply because the money output of a single house robbery isnt enough to afford cutting in a lookout also. on a 20k house robbery in order to make it worth for 2 people cleaning out the house top to bottom it has to be JUST those 2 people. any more would dilute the pot til its only a few k profit each...again..you might as well clock on at burgershot.

 

[Diligo]

55 minutes ago, Quietthecutie said:

unworkable tbh.

Simply because the money output of a single house robbery isnt enough to afford cutting in a lookout also. on a 20k house robbery in order to make it worth for 2 people cleaning out the house top to bottom it has to be JUST those 2 people. any more would dilute the pot til its only a few k profit each...again..you might as well clock on at burgershot.

 

nobody said crim life easy life.
time to go and get friends go broke fr fr

[JoKenpo]

+1

[SilentRobn]

I've been on both sides of this coin.  When these house robberies were first introduced to the server early last year,  I would do them constantly. There was an occasion where I was robbed by someone outside of my house at gunpoint. I felt that the player had just metagamed the UI to know I was there but there was nothing I could do about it.  I was certain I hid my vehicle properly and I was not followed. All the robber knows was the UI said house robbery and I was leaving a house with a crate. 

A short time after I was robbed, I decided to use the same technique that had been used on me, just sit in a bush after noticing the house robbery UI and wait for someone to come out with a crate to rob them. 

When I tried to use this tactic, I was met by an admin outside the house (as the player that had been robbing the house had already created a report for another issue) and was told this was considered metagaming. 

I took a leave from the server for some months and when I came back to the server, sure enough a similar situation occured where I was robbed because of UI at a house robbery. 

At this point I was certain this was metagaming as an admin had declared it to me in the past scenarios when I tried to rob someone. 

When I made a report about this behavior though, it seems as though they disagreed with this being metagaming after all. And stated the UI can be used to "notice the door is damaged". 

Long story short,  at first they considered the UI metagaming but somewhere down the line they changed their stance on this. I think they should go back to the original belief of this being metagaming as the UI is NOT something your chapter would see ICLY and any other time a UI is used, it is considered metagaming.

[Diligo]

4 hours ago, SilentRobn said:

I've been on both sides of this coin.  When these house robberies were first introduced to the server early last year,  I would do them constantly. There was an occasion where I was robbed by someone outside of my house at gunpoint. I felt that the player had just metagamed the UI to know I was there but there was nothing I could do about it.  I was certain I hid my vehicle properly and I was not followed. All the robber knows was the UI said house robbery and I was leaving a house with a crate. 

A short time after I was robbed, I decided to use the same technique that had been used on me, just sit in a bush after noticing the house robbery UI and wait for someone to come out with a crate to rob them. 

When I tried to use this tactic, I was met by an admin outside the house (as the player that had been robbing the house had already created a report for another issue) and was told this was considered metagaming. 

I took a leave from the server for some months and when I came back to the server, sure enough a similar situation occured where I was robbed because of UI at a house robbery. 

At this point I was certain this was metagaming as an admin had declared it to me in the past scenarios when I tried to rob someone. 

When I made a report about this behavior though, it seems as though they disagreed with this being metagaming after all. And stated the UI can be used to "notice the door is damaged". 

Long story short,  at first they considered the UI metagaming but somewhere down the line they changed their stance on this. I think they should go back to the original belief of this being metagaming as the UI is NOT something your chapter would see ICLY and any other time a UI is used, it is considered metagaming.

if they go back to this ruling then everybody would do house robberies because they basically are then protected from any consequences. a car in the driveway would be left.
that would make all crim roleplay through house robberies and that is it.
carrying a crate does not mean someone has something illegal in it, so no reason to bring guns to accidentally appear illegal.
that would just be private labs all around again and that is not what most of the staff wants, that is why it is the only UI which is not considered metagaming.

I have slept on this - i do have an idea

Implement this guys idea:

On 8/28/2024 at 6:52 PM, Requiem said:

I think the better way of going about this is to push for the suggestion of reworking the UI. I posted this on other suggestions already, but if the UI could be eliminated, this wouldn't be an issue any more. Here is my suggestion for how to do that:

• Rather than the UI and the big skull icon marking the robbery, the contract dealer only provides an address, and the player needs to do /setgps [robbery address] to find it, or just find it manually themselves. 
• Add a new command /checkdoor to initiate the robbery or for others to check for signs of forced entry, or just checking if the door is unlocked (this will help in situations aside from just house robberies). To prevent other crims from going around Vinewood hills and spamming this command at every door, there could be a random chance of law enforcement getting an automated call if the command is used on a house that is not currently marked for robbery saying something such as, "The homeowner believes someone is trespassing on their property, trying to break into their front door!"
• Ctrl+x can be used to lockpick the front door, just like with vehicles and added to the new interaction menu that was changed for the license plate removal update. 
• Change the Law Cleanup UI to a command such as /cleanuphouse for police to use to get rid of the robbery contract. This command would of course be restricted to on-duty law enforcement officers. Could also add this to the Ctrl+x menu as an alternative option.

Until any changes are implemented, the topic of the rules surrounding using the UI to rob someone else doing a house robbery has been brought up within the staff team several times over the past few months, each time with the consensus being that using the UI to know that someone is robbing the house is not metagaming, with the argument being that there would be signs of a break in that had occurred. 

and change which houses can be robbed after certain amount of time. Week/month/seasonal or everytime a specific house gets robbed it cannot be robbed for a OOC month or two. Does not matter, they should change.

If you combine @Requiem UI change with my change then it would allow the picklocked doors to be checked but also protect anyone from metagaming house robber robbers.

If you implement just @Requiem then house robber robbers can just check the already known houses with /checkdoor but if you implement just my idea then people will still find houses with the UI after certain time has passed.

Combining our suggestions will make for better roleplay, people would just camp the key dealer guys to catch the possible house robber. And also for the house robber it would initiate roleplay of losing a tail. Even if you just came to the guy and didnt pick any keys, you could still get a tail, so finding a way to lose a tail would be awesome roleplay addition imho.

So remove the house robber UI, add those specific commands and change the houses which can be robbed periodically.
Then we have a lot more roleplay opportunities and no one could feel that they are scriptwise in a disadvantage which we all can agree on damages the roleplay.

Edited December 3, 2024 by Nikolia

[Requiem]

I think the point some people missed in my suggestion for the /checkdoor portion was this part: 

On 8/28/2024 at 11:52 AM, Requiem said:

To prevent other crims from going around Vinewood hills and spamming this command at every door, there could be a random chance of law enforcement getting an automated call if the command is used on a house that is not currently marked for robbery saying something such as, "The homeowner believes someone is trespassing on their property, trying to break into their front door!"

If people continue to go around spamming the command rather than checking the UI, they would put themselves at risk of the cops coming and you catching charges for trespassing and likely firearm possession if you were planning on robbing someone. If concerns are quite high that people would be spamming the command that much, could just set the percentage quite high that cops get called to something like 80% chance and the criminals who are spamming the command would not get notified cops were called either.