PD/SD Rules

[Joaquin Guzman]

Cops are really making the criminal life unplayable. If you get caught in the act of a crime or it's really evident than no-one is going to complain. The fact PD can just drive into labs undercover in random vehicles at any given time is annoying. The amount of camping near Drug labs to wait and hear shooting is also ridiculous. Camping banks 24/7 and drug labs is just very unrealistic and it makes anything you can do as a criminal unenjoyable. 

[RogerDaHawk1812]

I would really love some in depth rules limiting cops to do random stuff in order to give a breathing space for crims to actually RP. +1 from my side.

Edited June 10 by RogerDaHawk1812

[MrSilky]

Any evidence? Examples? LSPD OR LSSD?

 

 

[MrSilky]

5 minutes ago, RogerDaHawk1812 said:

I would really love some in depth rules limiting cops to do random stuff in order to give a breathing space for crims to actually RP. +1 from my side.

[Joaquin Guzman]

Just now, MrSilky said:

Any evidence? Examples? LSPD OR LSSD?

 

 

Sure, we had a situation the other day where a undercover cop in gang clothes and a regular vehicle decided to pull itself into Sea Labs when the lab was active while we were cooking. 

Shadows had a situation where they were in chili and a Black Draugar pulled into Chili and it was undercover police. They used there typing voice to mask the fact that they were undercover. Realistically if things like this are going to happen, it should be a rule to where PD or SD should have to use there first voice so it's not blatantly hurting criminals and leaving absolutely 0 RP. 

There is many more examples these are just the 2 most recent.

[Joaquin Guzman]

No-one is asking PD or SD to change there ways by any means, a little more roleplay and not obvious blatant camping of drug labs would make things more interesting and fun in my eyes, I'm sure many more criminals would agree as well. 

[MrSilky]

Just now, Joaquin Guzman said:

Sure, we had a situation the other day where a undercover cop in gang clothes and a regular vehicle decided to pull itself into Sea Labs when the lab was active while we were cooking. 

Shadows had a situation where they were in chili and a Black Draugar pulled into Chili and it was undercover police. They used there typing voice to mask the fact that they were undercover. Realistically if things like this are going to happen, it should be a rule to where PD or SD should have to use there first voice so it's not blatantly hurting criminals and leaving absolutely 0 RP. 

There is many more examples these are just the 2 most recent.

And what was the context? Were there any 911 calls? Active traces? Anything? Or was is a lone wolf scouting for a good time?

You are in SD, you know the strict rules on static/illegal locations - at least I trust you read the manual?

[Joaquin Guzman]

Just now, MrSilky said:

And what was the context? Were there any 911 calls? Active traces? Anything? Or was is a lone wolf scouting for a good time?

You are in SD, you know the strict rules on static/illegal locations - at least I trust you read the manual?

Yeah I am in SD and there is very strict rules about it. No one can really prove anything to say though, a cop could setup a speed trap really close to a lab and wait for shots to be fired, no really way of proving anything it's more about the principles.

As far as I know from a IC standpoint I couldn't tell you as I don't dm cops about it OOCLY to know any of the reasonings. When your playing a criminal character such as you would know, there is a variety of things you can correct? So when it becomes a frequent thing happening and not just to one gang in particular it becomes a bigger and bigger problem. The issue is when people try to speak up for it and get things changed, they get told off and nothing happens in result. All anyone is asking for and this is just a suggestion keep in mind is to make the logistics around being undercover in labs a little more Roleplayed instead of shutting it down

[HobGoblin]

If you have situations they should be reported through IA when they happen so they can be checked. 
 

Every time iv checked any PD at a lab they have had a reason. We just don't share the reason publicly. 

[Bala]

25 minutes ago, Joaquin Guzman said:

Cops are really making the criminal life unplayable. If you get caught in the act of a crime or it's really evident than no-one is going to complain. The fact PD can just drive into labs undercover in random vehicles at any given time is annoying. The amount of camping near Drug labs to wait and hear shooting is also ridiculous. Camping banks 24/7 and drug labs is just very unrealistic and it makes anything you can do as a criminal unenjoyable. 

Hi, I'd just like to touch on the lab camping aspect of that, as part of the team leading PD. I could tell you that it's not something that goes down the way that you think it does but you wouldn't believe me right? But, what I will say is that on a faction level, camping lab locations is not something we endorse or condone. Anyone that was found to be doing that would be punished and on the odd occasion that has happened, we've taken measures.

What I would say though is that, it is somewhat awkward for everyone involved when we only have four robbable banks in the server and like what, 7-8 locations for public labs. They are the same locations, used for the same things and we have to expect people to forget something is what it obviously is. On one side, you could guess someone going there is absolutely cooking drugs and on the other side, any cop going there is absolutely simply camping a lab, right? It's really easy to make an assumption of camping and assume nefarious/play to win behaviour.

To that end, I can tell you that I've been working on a number of new locations for public labs, which not only would make the lab experience feel a little bit fresher and present crims with new challenges and environments to do their dirt but also, will make it less predictable that a public lab is in use for law enforcement. Some of those are somewhat public and will require a low profile, others are more secluded and out of the way of normal patrol areas of both PD and SD.

Edited June 10 by Bala

[Joaquin Guzman]

1 minute ago, Bala said:

Hi, I'd just like to touch on the lab camping aspect of that, as part of the team leading PD. I could tell you that it's not something that goes down the way that you think it does but you wouldn't believe me right? But, what I will say is that on a faction level, camping lab locations is not something we endorse or condone. Anyone that was found to be doing that would be punished and on the odd occasion that has happened, we've taken measures.

What I would say though is that, it is somewhat awkward for everyone involved when we only have four robbable banks in the server and like what, 7-8 locations for public labs. They are the same locations, used for the same things and we have to expect people to forget something is what it obviously is. On one side, you could guess someone going there is absolutely cooking drugs and on the other side, any cop going there is absolutely simply camping a lab, right? It's really easy to make an assumption of camping and assume nefarious/play to win behaviour.

To that end, I can tell you that I've been working on a number of new locations for public labs, which not only would make the lab experience feel a little bit fresher and present crims with new challenges and environments to do their dirt but also, will make it less predictable that a public lab is in use for law enforcement. Some of those are somewhat public and will require a low profile, others are more secluded and out of the way of normal patrol areas of both PD and SD.

That's why I opened a suggestion to hear perspective. I appreciate and have understood what you are saying and I look forward to change if that's going to present itself. I think the meta of oh just "IA" the situation doesn't help cope with the fact that you are going to spend the next 3 hours of your day inside a prison. Not really any assumptions being made, I can only speak through my own personal experience which as far as i'm concerned everyone else replying can as well. Everyone is biased to their own experiences because they have all been different.  

[SaltyPoiosn]

I would like to draw the attention to a time where I was rolling labs with 2 of my gang members. We had not done a single thing wrong, no active warrents. Nothing at all. I have played crim for long enough to know if i am being trailed or scouted by cops in any shape or form. Of coruse there is an exception to the rule under very particular circumstances. 

Long story short we ended rolling into Chilliad Lab where there was an undercover PD Drauger, With Dale Ashcroft and Gankis. My big concern here is that they said it was an active case on a gang. However i am aware ICly that they are not GnD, they are infact Vice. Meaning it would be out of their line of work to conduct such investigation. Besides the point really tho. They were in an ilegal location in a drauger and abusing the fact that you can "type to talk" on this server in order to avoid detection. They can run my plate and PID off a santa hat, but god forbid i use my IC knowledge of a persons voice in order to raise some suspisions. Anyway we were called out and eventually ambushed at the gate.

This situation happened around maybe a month ago now, with similar cases becoming really common over the past two weeks. I'm not asking as to why this is happening on an IC level as that could cause some heavy cases of meta. However i would like some insight as to why this even allowed on an OOC level at all. I understand you say its not allowed, but its come to a point where it feels there was a shift in what is and isnt allowed as PD or SD

Edited June 10 by SaltyPoiosn

[Dola]

PD/SD characters can come on here and give their side of the story and act like everything is fine but that's easy to say when your main character is LEO. PD/SD is a huge problem and it is getting worse by the day and some people dont even want to log on because they essentially cant be a criminal and enjoy the server. I have so many cars but im constantly on a bf because i know if im in a car with a gun im most likely getting stopped and searched for no reason and the chances of evading successfully is so much lower in a car. Yes arrests are apart of the roleplay but try be an actual criminal for a while and you will see how bad it is.
1. You cant 3 or 4 stack a car because that's an instant pull over and searched.
2. Cops camping braddocks doing speed traps listening for shots.
3. Detectives rolling labs on a daily basis for any small reason. The only time a any cop should be able to go into a lab is if they hear gunshots or they trace somebody who is wanted.
4. The fact that any detective can pull me out of the car if they wish because i have a criminal record and in the infamous "case file" is ridiculous.

I can list so many things but the fact of the matter is cops are killing the server and crim is dying day by day and lets not forget cops need crims.

BIG +1

[onlystorming]

i fail to understand what rules can possibly added when there are already ones in place for the specific problem you are highlighting. you fail to understand that there are people around you that may also be investigated within your group, a freq was leaked, a trace was made, you have a snitch, a call was made or an individual that had this attention on them managed to trail into your location and you were also caught just by being a bystander. there are so many ways to get caught but you guys limit this to somebody seeing you in a lab and gunshots for simplicity reasons to cook 60k p/h? these pd vs crim threads are put up every single month yet most of the people arguing these cases have either:

1. never played LEO
2. have reached basic ranks in LEO and do not understand the depth of which some investigations go to warrant detectives being in labs

if you well and truly believed a rule breach happened then you'd be taking this to the correct place such as IA or a report, not the forums to complain and ask for even more rules to limit gameplay instead of letting the rp flow freely. if you wish to act like the infamous crims you are then surely you must want to deal with the attention that comes with gang suppression and detectives following you around? i see a lot of people here talking about limitations that don't actually exist. people complained about prison times, they got lowered and now we're complaining again? we're asking for voip to be used strictly for undercover situations so people's voice can be metagamed despite a mask being in place? if you are being caught so often then there's an issue in how you're operating.

i've played crim, i've been pulled out, traced, profiled because of my "case file". there's ways to avoid this. stop dressing in colors with high valuables on you, stop coloring your cars in gang colors and don't drive 200 through the city then you might not be flagged. LEO isn't stupid, they aren't meant to forget the past year of gameplay for your convenience reasons.

[DoTo]

I'm not sure where this expectation comes from that you should be able to be a known gang member that commits several violent crimes a day, regularly kills other people and shoots at cops and then be subsequently just allowed to live their life like a normal citizen. Actions have consequences. Jail times are far too short to be the only reasonable IC consequence for a violent, gangbanging criminal. That said, it is rather unfortunate that the server has very limited options for criminals to circumvent these, in truth very reasonable, consequences in terms of being hunted down by police, stopped, frisked etc. The issue is not helped by the fact that, to my knowledge, gangs are OOCly encouraged to display gang colours and such which is, in the way that it is has been practiced by every single faction on the server in the past 3-4 years, simply stupid from an IC standpoint and the IC interest in not getting caught, harassed etc.

On the topic of OOC regulations, Detectives camping labs or whatever the usual accusations are, I can only ask you to document and report individual cases where you think something foul has happened. I have said this before, many times in fact, but complaining on the forums about this does nothing at all. There are strict regulations in place against the behavior that has been described by multiple parties in this thread and the many that came before it. If you choose to not report them to Internal Affairs / Legal Faction Management, you do not have a right to complain.

Most of the time, any sort of perceived camping of labs or other criminal locations is not actually that, but rather an IC consequence based on actions of those that are targeted in the specific scenario. There have been instances where this was not the case and such things have been done out of an OOC play-to-win attitude, but I can assure you that this is punished and pursued, but for that to happen, it actually needs to be reported via OOC IA / Legal Faction Management, although in 99% of cases the former is enough. Just to be clear though, this is not a widespread issue. In the past 3 years of being a supervisor / command member of both SD and PD, I can recall maybe two or three instances.

[Zion Willard]

3 hours ago, Joaquin Guzman said:

No-one is asking PD or SD to change there ways by any means, a little more roleplay and not obvious blatant camping of drug labs would make things more interesting and fun in my eyes, I'm sure many more criminals would agree as well. 

In the last 7 months since Ive been back I haven't personally seen a single situation where PD "camped" a lab. Any of the situations mentioned, factions were already holding x place and PD came because they were there for y reason. 9 times out of 10 if you're at any remote lab you get to have all the shootout fun you want without any police showing up until after it has been dealt with or not at all. Both the situations you mentioned had reasons for people to be there.

I do agree that braddocks is too close to the highway and makes it tough for crims to be there given the proximity to the farm and stores which naturally causes more SD to be there.

Edited June 10 by Zion Willard

[DontSniffSugar]

As a criminal main and LEO player with over 500k XP on both characters, I have personally never encountered LEO players camping a lab, every time I’ve personally been inside of a lab was at the result of a 911 call being made, being led into a lab via a pursuit, an active trace, or seeing somebody enter with a firearm. I’ve never seen LEO characters enter just because they were bored or without valid reasoning, then again I could be wrong but I’m just sharing my personal experience with this.

Edited June 10 by DontSniffSugar

[HobGoblin]

3 hours ago, Joaquin Guzman said:

That's why I opened a suggestion to hear perspective. I appreciate and have understood what you are saying and I look forward to change if that's going to present itself. I think the meta of oh just "IA" the situation doesn't help cope with the fact that you are going to spend the next 3 hours of your day inside a prison. Not really any assumptions being made, I can only speak through my own personal experience which as far as i'm concerned everyone else replying can as well. Everyone is biased to their own experiences because they have all been different.  

Next time you see a cop go into a lab for no reason dm me on discord .hobgoblin. and I will check if that cop has a reason, if they don't have a reason they will get punished.

[Joaquin Guzman]

8 minutes ago, HobGoblin said:

Next time you see a cop go into a lab for no reason dm me on discord .hobgoblin. and I will check if that cop has a reason, if they don't have a reason they will get punished.

Thank you.

[Gustavo Prez]

Ive had a couple bad interactions with PD/SD at labs, all from units camping outside labs seemingly "afk" or "doing paperwork" when in reality they are activley listening for gunshots or waiting for someone to pull in so they can follow them in. Or getting pulled out of the car for seemingly the most minor reasons because they know that i most likley have guns inside the car. And the MOMENT a PD or SD officer does something they shouldint you need to spend an hour atleast on a IA report, then wait 2 months for them to respond to it, and 100/10 they will get denied, i think the best solution is a more active internal affairs with both of the departments, if the reports would be answered faster and in a more serious manner it would be benefitial for all, not even because more cops will get suspended but because cops will become wayyy more careful with how they operate and arrest. 

So coming from a both crim and cop player, this seems like the best alternative for all parties to be happy.

[Freclan]

5 minutes ago, Gustavo Prez said:

Ive had a couple bad interactions with PD/SD at labs, all from units camping outside labs seemingly "afk" or "doing paperwork" when in reality they are activley listening for gunshots or waiting for someone to pull in so they can follow them in. Or getting pulled out of the car for seemingly the most minor reasons because they know that i most likley have guns inside the car. And the MOMENT a PD or SD officer does something they shouldint you need to spend an hour atleast on a IA report, then wait 2 months for them to respond to it, and 100/10 they will get denied, i think the best solution is a more active internal affairs with both of the departments, if the reports would be answered faster and in a more serious manner it would be benefitial for all, not even because more cops will get suspended but because cops will become wayyy more careful with how they operate and arrest. 

So coming from a both crim and cop player, this seems like the best alternative for all parties to be happy.

IA does not take 2 months to respond to a report what are you waffling about

[ComradeCorbyn]

7 hours ago, Joaquin Guzman said:

Cops are really making the criminal life unplayable. If you get caught in the act of a crime or it's really evident than no-one is going to complain. The fact PD can just drive into labs undercover in random vehicles at any given time is annoying. The amount of camping near Drug labs to wait and hear shooting is also ridiculous. Camping banks 24/7 and drug labs is just very unrealistic and it makes anything you can do as a criminal unenjoyable. 

It's crazy how confident you guys can be in posts like this when you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It's very revealing that you think we don't have game balance in mind when considering our internal protocols. I imagine you think we don't have this in mind because you couldn't imagine sacrificing what you could do within the server rules with having game balance when considering your actions as a criminal roleplayer.

Believe it or not, many of the issues that you have with PD and SD and how we operate in these situations are highly regulated within the faction. Please do not cite your experience in SD as a fact of how we operate. As a member of SD Command, I can tell you firsthand that we monitor deputy activity around rotating illegal locations extremely closely. In fact, I can tell you that we have seen you outside of a static criminal location within gunshot range. Care to explain your involvement in this?

Instead of taking a comprehensive look at the situation, it appears that you are taking a single personal experience to form the entirety of your opinion on the situation. Have you considered that there are perhaps factors that you are not aware of that lead investigators to look into your criminal activities? Have you considered that you or your criminal associates slipped up in some way to get a law enforcement agency on your tail? Have you considered anything else than the worst possible intentions of those playing the same game as you?

 

Edited June 11 by ComradeCorbyn

[Joaquin Guzman]

2 minutes ago, ComradeCorbyn said:

It's crazy how confident you guys can be in posts like this when you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It's very revealing that you think we don't have game balance in mind when considering our internal protocols. I imagine you think we don't have this in mind because you couldn't imagine sacrificing what you could do within the server rules with having game balance when considering your actions as a criminal roleplayer.

Believe it or not, many of the issues that you have with PD and SD and how we operate in these situations are highly regulated within the faction. Please do not cite your experience in SD as a fact of how we operate. As a member of SD Command, I can tell you firsthand that we monitor deputy activity around rotating illegal locations extremely closely. In fact, I can tell you that we have seen you outside of a static criminal location within gunshot range. Care to explain your involvement in this?

Instead of taking a comprehensive look at the situation, it appears that you are taking a single personal experience to form the entirety of your opinion on the situation. Have you considered that there are perhaps factors that you are not aware of that lead investigators to look into your criminal activities? Have you considered that you or your criminal associates slipped up in some way to get a law enforcement agency on your tail? Have you considered anything else than the worst possible intentions of those playing the same game as you?

 

Like we said from the beginning and are still saying, this is a suggestion opened to personal opinions and experiences. This isn't a place to get defensive and turn this into emotion. It's a suggestion for a reason and I've been quite mindful of everyone thoughts. I don't recall any issues or instances that I have done things like this on purpose or of meaning. Then again, I am always with a supervisor due to being a trainee. Everybody knows things play into it, its a rule and logistics opinion we are looking for not and argument. 

[Kazjii]

To speak on the behalf of SD's Command team, any and all situations that occur that outlines what you are talking about is thoroughly discussed and acted-on if necessary. Key phrase is "if-necessary". We have OOC policies, not rules but policies, that outline camping labs. All of that to provide balance that is spoken about here. 

But it seems to be an ongoing issue within the criminal space that your criminal record, your actions, and your presence in the server with both of those combined are something that does not give you the right to roll around without extra caution from LEO factions. As much as criminals will disagree, LFM works extensively between LEO command teams to ensure that balance is in line. 

Balance though is not a one way street. Criminals have the upper-hand in setting up vehicle switches, planning ahead and ambushing cops, and being ready to try and catch LEOs off-guard. If that side of the scale gets too heavy, LEO needs to add more weight (in this case, more authority and power) to balance out the odds. Labs are not safe havens, if you want to race into Catfish with multiple cars and swerving into lanes, your actions will result in cops going into this "safe haven".

[Joaquin Guzman]

1 minute ago, Kazjii said:

To speak on the behalf of SD's Command team, any and all situations that occur that outlines what you are talking about is thoroughly discussed and acted-on if necessary. Key phrase is "if-necessary". We have OOC policies, not rules but policies, that outline camping labs. All of that to provide balance that is spoken about here. 

But it seems to be an ongoing issue within the criminal space that your criminal record, your actions, and your presence in the server with both of those combined are something that does not give you the right to roll around without extra caution from LEO factions. As much as criminals will disagree, LFM works extensively between LEO command teams to ensure that balance is in line. 

Balance though is not a one way street. Criminals have the upper-hand in setting up vehicle switches, planning ahead and ambushing cops, and being ready to try and catch LEOs off-guard. If that side of the scale gets too heavy, LEO needs to add more weight (in this case, more authority and power) to balance out the odds. Labs are not safe havens, if you want to race into Catfish with multiple cars and swerving into lanes, your actions will result in cops going into this "safe haven".

See now this is the type of response we can work on instead of getting into a blatant emotions war.