Gang Backup Rule

[Dara MacFadden]

Just now, Appelgi said:

 

 

Lola's response was one of the 2 suggestions I had made, that's why I was curious if you even cared to read the rest, since I clearly described it in my post. Glad to hear though that you support the idea of making a clear ruleset for the current vague rules. 

 

np

[adsta_lynx]

-1. Makes it fun again not having to fight 3 gangs at once. Im here to RP not win all the time. 

[TvA]

3 minutes ago, Woo said:

If you read AlexAlex's response (which, if you lack understanding of the rule should go and re-read a couple times as they do very well at explaining it) the rule has been written vaguely on purpose to prevent loopholes and leeway when applying it.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or not. How will writing a rule vaguely prevent loopholes instead of creating them?

[Harley]

5 minutes ago, Appelgi said:

Believe me, I am not taking any offense. Just curious why you would put down a simple -1, while I have left 2 suggestions myself, the removal of most of the rules, or a rework of them as soon as possible. Seems like you agree with one of them.

So a bit odd that you would say "Your suggestion is to change the rule to make it "Just don't allow joint freqs, but allow the rest"  while that's not my only suggestion. We should try and work something out.

Not sure if you read my post, but it wasn't a simple -1.

I read your suggestion and disagree that any actions need to happen, which is why I posted -1. The rule is a complex one, but that's because it's a large scale issue.

When it first came around, I took my time to ask as many questions as I could think of to make sure I understand everything about the rule to cascade to my Faction members.

I know that Faction Leaders from Daichead Gadai also did the same with their Faction Handlers. As leaders it is our responsibility to learn the rule and everything there is to know about it.

The rules of ECRP as a whole can't be 10 paragraphs for each rule. They are phrased in a way to make it clear and simple to understand in a short read, but every rule has more context to it the more you look into it. This rule is no exception.

With every new rule or change to ECRP, there is bound to be confusion and growing pains, which is why as leaders we all took the opportunity to ask questions and fully understand the rule to prevent any of us breaking said rule.

You have Faction Handlers for a reason. Use them.

[Macc]

-1 As has been said by others, the responsibility relies on the individual leaders to ensure the rule is effectively understood. 

[Driqz]

6 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

FSO/La Fam war

Responding to this for just to sum up something that people should know and I'm pretty Sure you yourself don't know nothing about it. OOC protection, If gangs don't have that ooc protection the general build up and life of gangs will be the norm. You of all people went against Aztecas with 4 gangs to destroy them and they outlived all of these gangs. Having a gang attack all of the gangs in server and then complain about getting killed by said gangs THAT just the consequences from their own RP behavior that caused that. Most of the people that support this role is people that know for a fact that they wouldn't exist if those rules are not in place. War apps don't work and NLR rule is just idiotic and then add the joint freq rule to the mix with public robbery rules against gangs and those gangs are just protected from everything.  Let's be real too this rule only got implemented because of this
 

have fun

[alexalex303]

3 hours ago, Driqz said:

Responding to this for just to sum up something that people should know and I'm pretty Sure you yourself don't know nothing about it. OOC protection, Most of the people that support this role is people that know for a fact that they wouldn't exist if those rules are not in place. 

I'm glad you agree. This rule is here to make sure that four gangs don't bully one gang out of existence. That is never good for the server, even if we try to justify it with "RP reasons". If such a rule was around a lot longer ago, we wouldn't need faction management to create a street gang. If such a rule was around a lot longer ago, we could still have a racing gang in Wanted and so on.

Regardless of all the of the character development that occurred in order for three gangs of very different background to decide they want to hold hands, at the end of the day, it's extremely silly to have for example an Asian Syndicate team up with an African American street gang in order to directly fight an Italian Mafia. It just doesn't happen. Gangs are supposed to look after their own interests, try to make themselves #1, not share #4 spot with three other gangs.

And just to be clear, I was on both sides of it too, yeah, I never said I wasn't. That was the norm back then, it's not anymore, and I'm glad it is isn't. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by alexalex303

[Driqz]

5 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

racing gang in Wanted and so on.

as a HC in wanted let me just say even facing all of the gangs in the server I had more fun having to deal with that then OOC restrictions that we faced just killing one gang off. this shit should be up to the player and not by the rules. you are facing 4,5,6,7 gangs? deal with it. you have to act ICLY and accordingly to clear that shit off. It's all RP and should not be controlled by OOC rules and FM restrictions. just one example that happend when I led LFM that FM told me that I'm to aggressive in IC meetings......  that's what I mean by this being controlled environment and not what so ever up to the player to either play or initiate conflict as its controlled by FM and ooc rules for that to stop.   

[Dara MacFadden]

2 hours ago, Driqz said:

as a HC in wanted let me just say even facing all of the gangs in the server I had more fun having to deal with that then OOC restrictions that we faced just killing one gang off. this shit should be up to the player and not by the rules. you are facing 4,5,6,7 gangs? deal with it. you have to act ICLY and accordingly to clear that shit off. It's all RP and should not be controlled by OOC rules and FM restrictions. just one example that happend when I led LFM that FM told me that I'm to aggressive in IC meetings......  that's what I mean by this being controlled environment and not what so ever up to the player to either play or initiate conflict as its controlled by FM and ooc rules for that to stop.   

There's something's I agree with in this thread, but you saying you are facing 4,5,6,7 gangs? deal with it.

Things WOULD be dealt with better if things were more fair, and I'm saying this by saying LFM never had a reason to hit Irish initially.

You guys teamed up with GD for the sole purpose to beat us in fights, nothing other than that, there was no singular RP reason for it, maybe I'm mistaken but I'd be happy to hear what the reason was as I'm still yet to know, but I've spoken to members of GD during that time and they've told me similar.

Fighting 4 gangs and the 4 gangs reason collectily is "They disrespected us" Is simply a dull reason, sorry, it's not valid and it's just an excuse to shoot. And it's not healthy for the server or gangs OOCLY

So don't say it's "RP" when it's simply just not, it's mostly a win mentality sometimes, as displayed by your gang back then, 2 days before you hit us, you invited me personally into your arcade for a tour, and we didnt have an issue with LFM whatsoever, they were at the back of our minds.

>

It's all RP and should not be controlled by OOC rules and FM restrictions

This simply wouldn't work anymore. Things are not the way they used to be and for good reason.

I'm not trying to be an asswipe here, but considering it's about the topic at hand in the thread, its best to use examples we've all experienced.

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Dara MacFadden

[Driqz]

1 hour ago, Dara MacFadden said:

LFM never had a reason to hit Irish initially.

You guys teamed up with GD for the sole purpose to beat us in fights, nothing other than that, there was no singular RP reason for it, maybe I'm mistaken but I'd be happy to hear what the reason was as I'm still yet to know, but I've spoken to members of GD during that time and they've told me similar.

That's what surprise me still that you guys still don't know the reason for us attacking yall. It all stims from Triads attacking us off colors and you guys recruiting the people that were hitting us. Saying that our sole reason was just disrespect is just a lie that came from people that either are not HC or don't get told what's happening. You guys fought GD with Triads and after countless meetings with GD and FSO HC we waged war on Irish just to have FSO leave us to have 2v2 when Triads jumped in the mix without "Reason" as it comes from your understanding and that resulted in their disbandment. Countless posts and FM meetings happened to explain the conflict and FM understood it clearly.  

I was in the backend of a war way worse then the one we waged on you guys not once but twice and never did it went to the ooc level that some people have it to be. People should treat this as game and accept a loss some times. it's the nature of games but to add countless OOC measurements just to have shit halted and conflict stand for months on end it will have some people OOC hate some people and that's a fact from the things we have seen from the past couple of months. some people get salty and some people cheat just to win and I can say with all of confidence that we never did that and for conflict you can check on the leader of FSO if we had meetings after meetings to figure out a peace from the conflict. thing is some people to explore all of their options and never try to end the conflict that they themselves are complaining about for example Irish never went and met with us another example is how Irish, FSO and TRCC when they went around attacking every gang that is semi Friendly and with that it resulted in some small gangs just attacking yall. in end I'm just saying that having conflict is the nature of being a crim and if you yourself can't handle that and need OOC restrictions to protect you should not be playing crim.
 

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Driqz

[IAmTurtle]

Lets bring this back to the original topic over joint-freqs so that the thread will not be locked and archived. 

[ize]

6 minutes ago, Driqz said:

You guys fought GD with Triads

Man Oti texted Triads declaring War WHILE CHASING Irish during an already ongoing war between Irish and GD, and LFM and GD had been fighting each other before GD fought Irish.
I really don't see how this has become a part of this thread regardless, seems completely off-topic to me? Would rather the thread stays on the topic of the backup rule instead of discussing he-said she-said about random fights from half a year ago...

[Driqz]

1 minute ago, DoctorIze said:

Man Oti texted Triads declaring War WHILE CHASING Irish during an already ongoing war between Irish and GD, and LFM and GD had been fighting each other before GD fought Irish.
I really don't see how this has become a part of this thread regardless, seems completely off-topic to me? Would rather the thread stays on the topic of the backup rule instead of discussing he-said she-said about random fights from half a year ago...

I'm pretty sure your blind and can't see the rest of what a wrote as it explains most of the shit that I THINK of the rule as it's unnecessary and more of a hindrance to RP then promoting it 

[krooks365]

15 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

This rule was not introduced as a fix to a temporary problem, it was introduced as a fix to a problem as old as the (modern) server, starting with the original council.

It is not healthy for the server for a small group of players to have a monopoly on gangs, and give those players the power to bully other players off the server. No matter the amount of supposed roleplay it generates, it does not create a healthy environment, and adds to OOC tensions.

You stated that this rule stifles criminal diplomacy, I say that it strengthens it. Not the 120 man zerg going up Chiliad, that's dead, but actual diplomacy.

Say you have gangs A, B and Z. A & B are on good terms, and for some reason gang B and Z are having a conflict, that maybe turned violent.

Instead of having gangs A&B sit on a joint frequency all day and throw 100 man fights every time they see each other, gang A can provide support to gang B via soft power. That means providing weapons to help the other gang fight, provide drugs or cars to shop for the other gang to maintain influence, or even straight up cash. They can also refuse to provide any of these to the enemy faction. That is all backed up through roleplay.

The only thing this rule harms is the TDM mentality, and in my opinion, it should never be removed or altered. Clarification is always welcome so long as it does not introduce loopholes (which is why I believe the current rule is vague).

While I agree there is alot that /could/ be clarified the problem is that the more you clarify the more people try to find the loopholes out of what is not shared. There is a mentality of "well this one example wasnt listed so it must be fine."

I would love a future where there could be less rules - but that would require people to look at their gameplay and ask "Is this fair and balanced for other roleplayers on this server or am I just trying to get a win?" and I am not optimistic of that at this time. Honestly the rule that was added was a breath of fresh air after enduring people claiming not to be on joint freq's yet oddly still all responding to the same situations. It was well needed to address what was going on and has been going on for a LONG time. Something even myself am guilty of. And while grouping up multiple groups deep is fun time - 80 people all on a joint freq robbing every person, instigating shootouts, etc on any 1 person or group who so much as looks at one of the 8- wrong does not generate or encourage good roleplay nor a fair playing field for all roleplayers.

 

[ShawnsBeard]

-1

Really surprised that nobody has mentioned the fact that the way joint freq's were before just didn't make sense RPly.  It almost never makes any logical sense for one gang to supply physical backup to another, risking their own lives for somebody else's problem.  This is especially true when you consider that 9 times out of 10 allied gangs on the server have been dragged into a conflict for the sole reason of their alliances with other gangs.

Of course that doesn't mean you cant have allies, but as alex has stated, you supply support to your allies in different ways than just throwing bodies to meat shield bullets because they can just respawn later.  The server is meant for roleplay, not chain fighting.  

[krooks365]

You thinking they killed off any gang is laughable. I still see Irish doing just fine. FSO/Triads (whichever you think is the 'dragon gang's) disbanded for OOC reasons that have nothing to do with his gang or any gang. The only thing I've seen the behavior you are advocating for kill is the collective motivation to create stories and roleplay fairly. If you want to tell people to get good go play Rust or COD. This isn't about winning all the time it's about telling good stories that EVERYONE can enjoy and interact with. Hilarious you think people who are advocating for fair play are "hiding" I seriously think this is either not the game you think it is or you are just trolling. Based off your name I'll assume you are trolling.

You want my respect as a gang? You want me to say that your gang was great and awesome - Don't get banned for massive rule breaks directly following disband, be known for the quality and in depth of your RP not how many times and how well you can shoot. FSO disbanded of our own accord and I don't know of a single FSO member who mass DMd to "go out in a blaze of glory" after. Can some of you others say the same? If not ask if what you were promoting/ or even just allowing in your factions was positive and healthy for all or whether it just was to shoot. If that's all your concerned about this is not the server for you. 

[Kento]

5 minutes ago, Irishmonke said:

Tell that to the national guard 

Sounds like someone was banned here to me 

[skeletee]

Gangs should not be forced to disband at the hands of another gang unless because of an official war. To think otherwise is an unhealthy mindset for the server. How is this enjoyable for anyone? Maybe it was fine in the past, but it is just unacceptable now.

I think every faction has something to offer to the server that helps bring it to life. For example, an illegal motorbike gang could host annual rallies, bike shows, rock concerts, charity rides, and collaborate with a drift gang to work on illegal modifications likewise an Asian syndicate can open a MMA business, sell opium, or host illegal gambling likewise a street gang that operate in more impoverished areas of Los Santos can traffic drugs, carry out extortion, contract killing, prostitution, kidnapping, and host events for illegal fights likewise a "hacker-for-hire" mercenary group that operate the underground market and sell information over the internet to other criminals. When a faction wants to do something that RPly wouldn't make sense for do, there would be another faction that can help.

These are just to name a few ideas. How much more exciting would the server be if everyone worked with one another to bounce off one another for ideas and events like these? This is not to say shoot-outs isn't RP. It can be, and is a great way to end conflict when used as the very pinnacle of it or a way to escalate a conflict up to that point. Sometimes, however, fighting provides little essence to RP. This is why I say fighting accounts for just a fraction of what RP is and should be, because look at what else there is to do that doesn't involve shootouts.

Going back to the main topic, this is one of the reasons why the rule should remain. It fundamentally diverts people away from focusing on providing and contributing to mass back-ups for fights, and instead, forces people to actually "RP" outside of shooting. In reference to the first thing I said in this post as well, no gang wants to fight against obscene numbers day in, day out with no chance of diplomacy. It ruins people's times on the server and deprives RP, especially ones that contribute to faction lore. Back-to-back shootouts with poor escalation is not RP, and the new rule undeniably reduced these. The server is not a place for competition. It's really not. It's too big of a server for any singular gang or ally to "run" it. It's a place for people to enjoy themselves and practice creativity. Let's work together to encourage this mindset. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Lola

[karl_vsm]

+1

 

[Mortem]

+1 

Although I believe there is room for discussion on what level of backup from other gangs should be allowed, and a limit on how many gangs can be called to back eachother up, I still think this rule should be changed immediately. 

 

[jdeclue1]

This rule is the boogeyman among factions as it’s so vague and I’ve heard so many different understandings of it, that the normal course of action via role play is, “Oh my ally and all his friends are currently dying? Sweet, I have a haircut appointment but good luck!”

[skeletee]

4 hours ago, jdeclue1 said:

This rule is the boogeyman among factions as it’s so vague and I’ve heard so many different understandings of it, that the normal course of action via role play is, “Oh my ally and all his friends are currently dying? Sweet, I have a haircut appointment but good luck!”

There are ways to avoid this, such as going on a different frequency with said gang that you are doing a task with and being sure the only people on the frequency are the people that are physically there together. Alternatively, if you’re suddenly fighting and you notice another faction is involved, you simply tell over the frequency that you and other X faction have it under control and not to come OR someone not involved can say they’ve got help by X faction, they have it under control. At that point, the fault falls on anyone that comes to assist when it’s been made clear not to get involved.

 

Admittedly, it is a difficult rule to get your head around initially but it is fundamentally very simple in practice. I have a copy and paste outline of the rule that I’ve been sharing in announcements since the rule was established which I’m happy to share, feel free to PM if you’d like to have it to share to other respective factions or for your own understanding.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Lola

[Mortem]

9 hours ago, Lola said:

There are ways to avoid this, such as going on a different frequency with said gang that you are doing a task with and being sure the only people on the frequency are the people that are physically there together. Alternatively, if you’re suddenly fighting and you notice another faction is involved, you simply tell over the frequency that you and other X faction have it under control and not to come OR someone not involved can say they’ve got help by X faction, they have it under control. At that point, the fault falls on anyone that comes to assist when it’s been made clear not to get involved.

 

Admittedly, it is a difficult rule to get your head around initially but it is fundamentally very simple in practice. I have a copy and paste outline of the rule that I’ve been sharing in announcements since the rule was established which I’m happy to share, feel free to PM if you’d like to have it to share to other respective factions or for your own understanding.

I completely agree that it is fundamentally a very simple rule and one that is difficult to get your head around, but that doesn't make it a good rule. Just because something is simple doesn't mean it's effective or useful, the reasoning for the back-up breach rule is so that gangs don't team up but it seems like an IC issue that is being averted in an OOC manner. 

On top of this, the back up breach rule destroys a LOT of roleplay, it is completely unrealistic and so creates situations where scenarios must be avoided for no IC reasoning apart from OOC rules, in my opinion it is too much interference in IC matters from an OOC perspective. As I said earlier there could be a limit, but the fact that as a gang we can't help our allies to defeat a common enemy is simply absurd.

[Jorge Compass]

backup rule is good as it helps prevents 3 gangs sitting on a freq 24/7 - from my understanding it was implemented during the council phase 

[IAmTurtle]

It was meant to stop council who were just fucking smaller gangs out of the server.