Gang Backup Rule

[skeletee]

1 hour ago, Mortem said:

I completely agree that it is fundamentally a very simple rule and one that is difficult to get your head around, but that doesn't make it a good rule. Just because something is simple doesn't mean it's effective or useful, the reasoning for the back-up breach rule is so that gangs don't team up but it seems like an IC issue that is being averted in an OOC manner. 

On top of this, the back up breach rule destroys a LOT of roleplay, it is completely unrealistic and so creates situations where scenarios must be avoided for no IC reasoning apart from OOC rules, in my opinion it is too much interference in IC matters from an OOC perspective. As I said earlier there could be a limit, but the fact that as a gang we can't help our allies to defeat a common enemy is simply absurd.

While I can understand your sentiment, I can’t fully agree. 

There are definitely ways to RP while the back-up rule is implemented. If you’re talking about grouping to “defeat a common enemy” per verbatim, at one point while I was in Daichead Gadai, we made a call for all gangs and organisations based in the city as everyone’s turfs were getting sold and dealt on by the Goblins, who historically stayed in Blaine Country areas. Through many discussions, mediating tensions (for example trying to get the Russians and Ballas to set aside their issues for the purpose of one common goal), and teamwork, we were able to deal and sell on all their turfs within a day to send them a message. This did not require any back-up whatsoever, and still accounted for a great deal of RP and development. Yes, while you cannot run labs with other gangs or shoot and kill other gangs in short-lived shoot-ours, I don’t believe it to be depriving of RP.

It is also totally counter-productive to have multiple gangs fighting one common enemy in regards to the NLR rule. As it stands, when two organisations get into a large altercation where one group is majority killed, they become John Doe and the “RP” resets so to speak to allow for new escalation. However, if multiple gangs are fighting together to “defeat” a singular organisation, suddenly the NLR rule is very difficult to navigate and will simply spiral and continue until no ends. 

Regarding realism - I believe someone has already mentioned it under this thread - but as much as it is unrealistic to not be able to join a shootout with allies, it is also unrealistic to be on the same radio frequency with 3, 4 other gangs for the purpose of shoot-outs.

Perhaps there can be a consideration for a quantifiable, said limit that you mentioned, but for now, I believe the rule is important for realism and overall the health of the server (particularly for new gangs that want to start up and for people to focus on their own fights, developments, and RP).

Edited February 2, 2022 by Lola

[Destuin]

47 minutes ago, Jorge Compass said:

backup rule is good as it helps prevents 3 gangs sitting on a freq 24/7 - from my understanding it was implemented during the council phase 

It was definitely a problem back then, doesn't mean it would still be a problem now. It truly only enhances roleplay to be able to make alliances and go on freqs and fight together etc. I definitely feel this can and should be relaxed. I am not talking about going back to 80 people on one freq all day every day. I am talking about grouping up with another gang and going together to roll labs or any other activity. Every time I have found myself on a joint freq the RP is so hindered by the constant fear of everyone there. Several times people ask if they need to change freq, is the operation over during a pursuit etc etc. Instead of having a blanket ban like this, it would be much more beneficial to let the RP develop and breathe and see where it takes the gangs ICly. If faction management feel that gangs are spending too much time on a joint freq, or any other issues arise they can easily speak to the leaders and sort this out. 

[alexalex303]

2 minutes ago, Destuin said:

It was definitely a problem back then, doesn't mean it would still be a problem now. It truly only enhances roleplay to be able to make alliances and go on freqs and fight together etc. I definitely feel this can and should be relaxed. I am not talking about going back to 80 people on one freq all day every day. I am talking about grouping up with another gang and going together to roll labs or any other activity. Every time I have found myself on a joint freq the RP is so hindered by the constant fear of everyone there. Several times people ask if they need to change freq, is the operation over during a pursuit etc etc. Instead of having a blanket ban like this, it would be much more beneficial to let the RP develop and breathe and see where it takes the gangs ICly. If faction management feel that gangs are spending too much time on a joint freq, or any other issues arise they can easily speak to the leaders and sort this out. 

The fact that you want to "roll labs" with several gangs shows exactly why the rule should not be relaxed in any way shape nor form.

This rule does not stop roleplaying. You can meet at a public event, such as the Irish Pub, you can have some noodles at the noodle house. Actual roleplay. It can be done, and there shouldn't be any fear about that.

However, running labs, chasing people and other such activities should never involve allies. The last thing we need right now is a return of zergs wiping off any smaller criminal crew from criminal activities. Allies should only assist you with soft power, and not shoot for you.

[Destuin]

10 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

The fact that you want to "roll labs" with several gangs shows exactly why the rule should not be relaxed in any way shape nor form.

This rule does not stop roleplaying. You can meet at a public event, such as the Irish Pub, you can have some noodles at the noodle house. Actual roleplay. It can be done, and there shouldn't be any fear about that.

However, running labs, chasing people and other such activities should never involve allies. The last thing we need right now is a return of zergs wiping off any smaller criminal crew from criminal activities. Allies should only assist you with soft power, and not shoot for you.

I disagree with you here entirely. I also feel the large majority of the crim community feel this way. Thats why threads like this pop up. All the time people complain about it, obviously as you do not play criminal yourself, you might struggle to see the impact this has had.

[alexalex303]

35 minutes ago, Destuin said:

I disagree with you here entirely. I also feel the large majority of the crim community feel this way. Thats why threads like this pop up. All the time people complain about it, obviously as you do not play criminal yourself, you might struggle to see the impact this has had.

I have led two official criminal factions on this server. I was there for the abuse of the backup and the zerg fights that crippled the server.

[Destuin]

5 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

I have led two official criminal factions on this server. I was there for the abuse of the backup and the zerg fights that crippled the server.

I think you will find that criminal RP is in the worst state it has ever been. It is because of old heads like you saying how bad it used to be, these people that say that are the same people who no longer play crim.... For the rest of us that was what everyone fell in love with. People look back on those times fondly, now days criminal RP has hit an all time low. You led two criminal factions yes, but haven't been active in any for over a year now. Your view is outdated. I will not reply again, I feel I have made my thoughts clear.

[Chris_]

4 minutes ago, Destuin said:

I think you will find that criminal RP is in the worst state it has ever been. It is because of old heads like you saying how bad it used to be, these people that say that are the same people who no longer play crim.... For the rest of us that was what everyone fell in love with. People look back on those times fondly, now days criminal RP has hit an all time low. You led two criminal factions yes, but haven't been active in any for over a year now. Your view is outdated. I will not reply again, I feel I have made my thoughts clear.

I could agree from an IC level that CrimRP may not be doing the best right now but it definitely is getting more promising. I can honestly say on a OOC level the amount of screaming of "Save POV" in /b and Petty forum reports has drastically dropped since Zetas WCA days and even after that Which In my personal opinion has led the CrimRP side of the server to be extremely less toxic then it used to be especially as of late. Now in regards to back-up rules I think the rule can hinder RP between allies but I do think it helps your faction be its own independent thing, as it should be. I experienced LFM & Azteca's joint freqs when I was in LNF, a 15 man gang and fighting someone on a 40 man freq is literally impossible and makes you want to quit the server. If your faction is fighting another faction it should be dealt with Faction versus Faction NOT Faction + 2/3 other factions versus Faction. Just my view on the whole thing.

[alexalex303]

28 minutes ago, Destuin said:

I think you will find that criminal RP is in the worst state it has ever been. It is because of old heads like you saying how bad it used to be, these people that say that are the same people who no longer play crim.... For the rest of us that was what everyone fell in love with. People look back on those times fondly, now days criminal RP has hit an all time low. You led two criminal factions yes, but haven't been active in any for over a year now. Your view is outdated. I will not reply again, I feel I have made my thoughts clear.

@Lola contributed to this thread and she was involved in a lot of large fights around that time, while still holding a criminal main character. It's not good to strawman the other side while claiming popular support to your side.

I also disagree wholeheartedly that my view is outdated when the discussion is to bring things closer to the way things are. Who's view is going to be more relevant, people that led gangs when things were like that, or people that saw videos about it?

I'm sure that a lot of people enjoyed the massive fights where they ran over their enemies, however, the server advanced so much more since then. We actually have active legal characters, and I don't mean people pretending to be legal but fulltime legal characters that throw parties, and exclusively social RP with a sprinkle of legal factions such as DCC and Weazel.

I'm not saying that they didn't exist back then, but they were being suppressed, whereas now they are flourishing. All of the rules since then allowed this to happen, the public robbery rule, even the no backup rule allowed civilians to roleplay civilians without the gang scene holding the server for ransom.

You might ask, how does the gang backup rule affect civilians? It's simple. When four gangs fight three gangs, all on joint frequencies, a large percentage of the time, just because of how many people are involved, law enforcement will also become involved, because the scene is so large, a lot of them will be involved, and then LSEMS. We had fights at grove st that literally had 200 people there, between LSPD, SASD, LSEMS and all of the gang members.

What happened to the random civilian that hit a pole and was bleeding out? They died. What happened to the random people getting robbed? They got robbed. What happened to people in prison? They were left alone as even DOC responded.

To put it simply, it paralyzed the server, putting this one unrealistically large fight in the spotlight. I'm sure it was fun for some of the people involved, for me, it was a terrible mess with 25 people crashing every 5 minutes due to RAGE not supporting that many people in one place.

Since the rule was implemented, how many of those fights did you see? 0. 

How many criminal roleplay events did you see? I'm not sure about you, but I've saw many. It was during the criminal backup rule that Irish was still a thing and they opened their pub weekly, once again roleplay that @Lola was involved in. LSD was doing legal races, together with illegal ones, inviting people from all gangs.

Roleplay still happens. What doesn't happen anymore is those huge fights, and I'm glad.

Edited February 2, 2022 by alexalex303

[Mortem]

5 hours ago, Jorge Compass said:

backup rule is good as it helps prevents 3 gangs sitting on a freq 24/7 - from my understanding it was implemented during the council phase 

Personally I think 3 gangs sitting on one freq is an IC issue, what prevents that from happening in real life? Communication problems, which definitely happen on a 100 man freq, either way, the rule should be tweaked one way or another, make it so that gangs can help each other, or maximum 2 gangs on the same freq, there are ways around this rule.

The whole point is that allies are REAL in real life, and if you are a '15 man gang trying to fight a 40 man joint freq' then you need to RPly re-evaluate what you are doing, as it's genuinely just not a good idea, maybe get some allies yourself and come back. 

Simple problems require simple solutions, in the same way that IC problems require IC solutions.

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Mortem

[dominykas]

Noticing these responses I just have to intervein. @Mortem mentions "15 man gang trying to fight a 40 man joint freq". I'm sorry, but for the past like six months when have you seen a gangs number of members exceed 25 at one time? If you were to compare most gangs I believe that their member count is quite constant and balanced. I feel like your statements are irrelevant and you don't see the potential negative impact this could have if this rule were to be lifted. It would paralyze the server and not allow new players to fully experience criminal roleplay. Even though from what I have seen criminal roleplay is at a low point I believe it's still in a better position than what it previously was. In Eclipse people try to make their roleplay as realistic as possible, but your comparison with real life in this case would not benefit the server as you so believe. In this situation I completely agree with @Chris_ and @alexalex303 statements that "If your faction is fighting another faction it should be dealt with Faction versus Faction NOT Faction + 2/3 other factions versus Faction". & "To put it simply, it paralyzed the server, putting this one unrealistically large fight in the spotlight". That would be all I have to say in regards to this topic.

[Destuin]

I think if we got every criminal that was online during peak time, and we all made an alliance, we still wouldn't have 80 people on freq, this is what I mean by the state of criminal RP is different.

[alexalex303]

2 hours ago, dominykas said:

Noticing these responses I just have to intervein. @Mortem mentions "15 man gang trying to fight a 40 man joint freq". I'm sorry, but for the past like six months when have you seen a gangs number of members exceed 25 at one time? 

Two weeks ago. 

[Destuin]

10 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

Two weeks ago. 

This is discord pinged RP ops. Everyone gets on at a certain time and these pings are only used for meetings or alt rp.  Just check the panel look at the amount of people in gangs, then look at that same panel a year ago, the numbers are totally different.