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CalvinKlein

The Community's general involvement in crucial staff-related decisions.

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Gonna make this as brief and short, and please either provide healthy / constructive feedback, or none to this matter, my suggestion here is to involve the community, and your regular player who's been playing this server everyday for x amount of time, to be involved in decision making for rule updates, and feature updates, after all this is a gaming community, metaphorically similar to a beehive, and we all know there can't be a beehive with no bees..

I believe it would drastically improve this community in a positive way if for example, polls were to be made, every once in a while in regards to new updates, or rule changes, and overall the voice of the community as a WHOLE, had a say in what changes, what stays, because at the end this is a game everyone wants to enjoy and it's your everyday player getting affected by major changes to the server, I really believe that involving the community as a whole would just make the server a better place for every one, staff would get less reports / complaints, and your average player will get to enjoy the game more, now this is not to undermine staff's perspective on things but we are all humans, and some things can be opinionated rather than factual sometimes, and what's actually better to actually act on an opinion? Other than the opinion of the majority of the server's players ??..

Maybe if you believe forum polls would not work as not everyone will be participating, do something like the TP menu you get when server restart where a player in-game gets to answer a quick poll and have those polls [with results] showing in panel, for example lets hypothetically say  lots of player want to see adjustment of the NLR rule, send a quick  MCQ questionnaire on how you'd like to see this rule adjusted / improved , maybe even short questions and actually ACT on those, now I'm not saying the server should just be a democracy run by the voices of its players completely, however I really believe having heavy community involvement in major rules / updates, will do nothing but benefit everyone playing.

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I am going to start off my saying I dislike this idea.

And, ill try to build up my opinion here.
It mostly stems from me having been a videogame developer for a roleplaying game.
Ill start off with the less hypothetical things.
Ill add a small explanation with reasoning.

1. You can have your opinion made known already.
Pier parking changes had a petition. We have discussion topics. And afaik you can discord it.
This is not the same as having a say but an important fact to start with.
 

2. You need to think out a system where choices wont be slowed down.
If you have more people involved it likely takes longer to handle things.
Speed in choices is important for many administrative things.
You cannot tell a mod to wait a day for the community to have a vote on something not stritcly writting down in the rules that is happening right now.

3. No situation is black and white. And polls make this worse. Do you have an idea to fix that?
Most things are not black and white. Even rules as written might not be rules as enforced. Or rules as intended.
A simple yes/no poll will not always suffice neither will a/b/c/d polls.
You also need to know backgrounds on the polls before voting.
And you can give significant bias in a poll as well.
Making it open ended creates loads of responses that mostly create extra work for staff.

Examples:
Any poll on a report already has a bias. People have ooc issues all the time. And we have factionalism as well.
This would make any rule change associated also have this bias.
Any law/rule changes from players need to be enforced by admins. If they disagree you lack enforcement of the rule or it gets enforced different then intended.
Pier changes did not 100% exactly get copied for example the blocking provision is not mentioned although that might be redundant.
You can also have bias in a poll an obvious example is X is a terrible rule should we remove it. (You call the rule terrible already. It is also yes/no when adjustment of rules should be where you look before removal.)
Less obvious would be: Many people dislike the X rule should we change it? (You say in the poll the rule is disliked)
And then you have the issue's of advertising polls, multi-voting or just selectively sending it to all your friends so just they vote or perhaps sending it to 50 ooc friends to vote your way.

4. Do you have an idea to remove ooc issues?
We are a roleplay server, but sometimes people take the ic to ooc. But in this case you also have to worry about the reverse.
You do not want people voting for something because they disliked who proposed it for something ic.
Or for example want to adjust taxes because they feel like they do not make enough money. (Lowered taxes yeee let's all vote for that.)
And there is also a lot of ooc considerations that you will not ever see mentioned or even think about.
Like having to moderate ooc fights because people disagree on things.

Edited by Awan
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1 minute ago, Awan said:

I am going to start off my saying I dislike this idea.

And, ill try to build up my opinion here.
It mostly stems from me having been a videogame developer for a roleplaying game.
Ill start off with the less hypothetical things.
Ill add a small explanation with reasoning.

1. You can have your opinion made known already.
Pier parking changes had a petition. We have discussion topics. And afaik you can discord it.
This is not the same as having a say but an important fact to start with.
 

2. You need to think out a system where choices wont be slowed down.
If you have more people involved it likely takes longer to handle things.
Speed in choices is important for many administrative things.
You cannot tell a mod to wait a day for the community to have a vote on something not stritcly writting down in the rules that is happening right now.

3. No situation is black and white. And polls make this worse. Do you have an idea to fix that?
Most things are not black and white. Even rules as written might not be rules as enforced. Or rules as intended.
A simple yes/no poll will not always suffice neither will a/b/c/d polls.
You also need to know backgrounds on the polls before voting.
And you can give significant bias in a poll as well.
Making it open ended creates loads of responses that mostly create extra work for staff.

Examples:
Any poll on a report already has a bias. People have ooc issues all the time. And we have factionalism as well.
This would make any rule change associated also have this bias.
Any law/rule changes from players need to be enforced by admins. If they disagree you lack enforcement of the rule or it gets enforced different then intended.
Pier changes did not 100% exactly get copied for example the blocking provision is not mentioned although that might be redundant.
You can also have bias in a poll an obvious example is X is a terrible rule should we remove it. (You call the rule terrible already. It is also yes/no when adjustment of rules should be where you look before removal.)
Less obvious would be: Many people dislike the X rule should we change it? (You say in the poll the rule is disliked)
And then you have the issue's of advertising polls, multi-voting or just selectively sending it to all your friends so just they vote or perhaps sending it to 50 ooc friends to vote your way.

4. Do you have an idea to remove ooc issues?
We are a roleplay server, but sometimes people take the ic to ooc. But in this case you also have to worry about the reverse.
You do not want people voting for something because they disliked who proposed it for something ic.
Or for example want to adjust taxes because they feel like they do not make enough money. (Lowered taxes yeee let's all vote for that.)
And there is also a lot of ooc considerations that you will not ever see mentioned or even think about.

I appreciate your response but you're thinking too deep into it, pier parking [petition] was an IC issue that got handled ICly, I am talking about maybe a committee of players representing sections of the community as a whole, using polls was just an example, however the MAIN suggestion in place here is to increase the magnitude and importance of the players' opinions, for example I believe Lewis would have an idea since he was part of NGRP's staff on NGRP, on how there was a gang commission directly being involved with staff on what should be added / revamped with gang / criminal aspects of the server, and community meetings were held every once in a while on teamspeak and overall the community's involvement was more important, and whatever method used or platform used, the aim here is to involve the community more into future rule / system updates..

Since you used pier parking as an example, I'll use drug labs..

I won't speak for everyone but so far every crim has complained about how labs are dead now and provide minimum crim RP compared to how they were, and multiple forum posts are being made up until this day to fix it but yea.

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2 minutes ago, CalvinKlein said:

I appreciate your response but you're thinking too deep into it, pier parking [petition] was an IC issue that got handled ICly, I am talking about maybe a committee of players representing sections of the community as a whole, using polls was just an example, however the MAIN suggestion in place here is to increase the magnitude and importance of the players' opinions, for example I believe Lewis would have an idea since he was part of NGRP's staff on NGRP, on how there was a gang commission directly being involved with staff on what should be added / revamped with gang / criminal aspects of the server, and community meetings were held every once in a while on teamspeak and overall the community's involvement was more important, and whatever method used or platform used, the aim here is to involve the community more into future rule / system updates..

Since you used pier parking as an example, I'll use drug labs..

I won't speak for everyone but so far every crim has complained about how labs are dead now and provide minimum crim RP compared to how they were, and multiple forum posts are being made up until this day to fix it but yea.

Ok, for the committee.
Admins are already players of the game. They have a broader view on the game compared to a player. You are also already welcome to discuss your opinion on what should be changed with admins who have influence. It's not a problem that they do not hear. And for the maginitude of increasing the say points 2 3 and 4 still stand.
Without a specific plan it will just sound like X should be better and then you are just not being constructive.

I feel community meetings/question hours would be a better idea. Since those are more open ended.

And your example provides something. When I developed new features we worked in secret. As in we did not tell players what we worked on.
This is for several reasons. See below. What is to say they are not working on drug labs already?


First some developers like to see player reactions themselves they worked hard on things and reveals are fun.
Second revealing something is a promise. Delays happen, you could lose motiviation or it could just be forever stuck on the to-do list.
Sometimes it's not perfect on the first try. It goes from being something positive (It's new and it's not working right) to something negative. (They reworked it and it's bugged.)
And last if it's there and it's good but not excellent people accept it. If you review details beforehand people will discuss even the smallest of those until the end of times.
 

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The issue with your proposition is that direct democracy does not work, and is pretty much non-existent in the modern world because of that. The fact of the matter is that individuals will prioritize their own interests vs the interests of the group, resulting in poor choices being made. It's why most countries today adopted the representative democracy, where they elect a person that would, in theory, act in their interests while also keeping in mind the bigger picture; The electee's job is to be as informed as possible so that they can make a decision that represents his constituents but also factors in the needs of the group.

However, in your proposed system, of a direct democracy, you will have people voting in their own self-interest, and against that of the common good. There are many examples of movements on the forums that were against something that objectively made the server better.

Recently, we've had the change in the robbery rules. There have been countless posts speaking against it, however, it is abundantly clear that besides generating some player reports in the early days, the rule has improved the RP standard drastically. It was laughable that on a roleplay server, a civilian could be robbed at a gas station for little reason by a person in a super car, however, some still believe that way was superior, because it was in their own interest.

A while ago there were changes made to the interpretation of the NLR rule, to be more in line with what is expected of a serious RP server, and not a light RP server, and it's fair to say that the vast majority of criminal roleplayers disagree with the changes, and would instead love to bash a faction until they leave the server because of one bad interaction, even through countless deaths. That is in their interest, because they want to shoot or entertain themselves at the expense of others, but not in the interests of the server, who should be nurturing more criminal gangs, and not a monopoly of three that pushes everyone away.

That's just two very recent examples in which players side with their own interest vs the greater good, and is why your idea would make the server considerably worse, and not better. 

Reading material

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

https://www.britannica.com/topic/direct-democracy/Issues-and-controversies

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17 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

The issue with your proposition is that direct democracy does not work, and is pretty much non-existent in the modern world because of that. The fact of the matter is that individuals will prioritize their own interests vs the interests of the group, resulting in poor choices being made. It's why most countries today adopted the representative democracy, where they elect a person that would, in theory, act in their interests while also keeping in mind the bigger picture; The electee's job is to be as informed as possible so that they can make a decision that represents his constituents but also factors in the needs of the group.

However, in your proposed system, of a direct democracy, you will have people voting in their own self-interest, and against that of the common good. There are many examples of movements on the forums that were against something that objectively made the server better.

Recently, we've had the change in the robbery rules. There have been countless posts speaking against it, however, it is abundantly clear that besides generating some player reports in the early days, the rule has improved the RP standard drastically. It was laughable that on a roleplay server, a civilian could be robbed at a gas station for little reason by a person in a super car, however, some still believe that way was superior, because it was in their own interest.

A while ago there were changes made to the interpretation of the NLR rule, to be more in line with what is expected of a serious RP server, and not a light RP server, and it's fair to say that the vast majority of criminal roleplayers disagree with the changes, and would instead love to bash a faction until they leave the server because of one bad interaction, even through countless deaths. That is in their interest, because they want to shoot or entertain themselves at the expense of others, but not in the interests of the server, who should be nurturing more criminal gangs, and not a monopoly of three that pushes everyone away.

That's just two very recent examples in which players side with their own interest vs the greater good, and is why your idea would make the server considerably worse, and not better. 

Reading material

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

https://www.britannica.com/topic/direct-democracy/Issues-and-controversies

We don't have any type of democracy on this server. The staff team is not representative of the player base and is no way elected by the player base so it's not a republic either. I'd rather have a direct democracy than a dictatorship where everyone given power is elected rather than selected. However I know that's not how many many gaming communities work. There are a few that do it well like Oldschool Runescape, but their community is much larger. I know that this topic is hopeless and will never happen just like PD vs Crims discussion. One group, in this case staff, would never relinquish any of their power voluntarily. Just as PD wouldn't relinquish their power. I've asked for more transparency of staff meetings and for player input before rule implementations are created but it seems like nobody wants to give the community (who you force these rules upon) a seat at the table to even voice their opinion until after the rule was created. You're also oblivious if you think that members of the staff team don't vote in their own self-interest. Everyone has an inherent bias to their own experiences. It is abundantly clear that there is a PD bias by the staff team on this server. Which makes total sense since 80%+ of the upper staff team mains law enforcement characters.

Edited by Copperhorse
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Personally, I think the struggle comes from it being difficult to pick out the good ideas and the well-meaning community members, from those that just want to specifically benefit themselves and/or their faction. There is a lot of that and unfortunately, it does tend to suffocate the good ideas that people do come up with.

It is easy to tar people with the same brush and it tends to be what happens. If you are a criminal, you take the criminal POV. If you are a cop, you take the cop POV. Voting in self-interest is the most natural thing, because why would you vote any other way? But, ultimately, it leads to people picking sides and not to people supporting a common goal.

There is a great irony though, that cops rely on criminals and criminals rely on the cops. 
There is a heavy police involvement in the upper admin teams, you are right but when you look at it, it's also pretty natural. You serve the IC laws and the OOC rules. PD and Staff aren't really that much different so it makes doing both easier.

I would like to be honest, I don't think that the interests of our criminal role-players are represented as well as they could be but then at the same time, I don't look at the higher administrators and think they are looking to fuck over a significant portion of the player-base either. For me, it is just that both sides right now are speaking different languages.

I'll use the faction war system and the newest robbery rules as examples. Both were introduced because criminals had gotten way out of control with their actions, so the admins respond to protect the interests of other people in the server, which is what you would expect and hope they would do. In doing so, I feel that perhaps too much unpredictability was lost and it lead to more rule-play than role-play. 

Good Roleplay is not hiding behind the rules nor is it typing fifty /me's. It's about building character and "living" in the world around you.
If you have to second guess everything you do, you've already lost it. 

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32 minutes ago, Bala said:

I would like to be honest, I don't think that the interests of our criminal role-players are represented as well as they could be but then at the same time, I don't look at the higher administrators and think they are looking to fuck over a significant portion of the player-base either. For me, it is just that both sides right now are speaking different languages.

Whether they are intentionally looking to do so or are accidentally doing so does not make a difference. In the end we're still getting shit on just like we've been since late 2019. PD relies on criminals to have a purpose of a faction. Keep shitting on criminals ICly and OOCly and you'll (PD/SD) eventually not have anything to do as a faction, just like we have nothing to do as a criminal community right now. I'd imagine you've already seen a significant reduction in the amount of roleplay opportunities you get as police now compared to a year ago. Criminals I've known who have played here for a while are dropping like flies (quitting) because they aren't represented and there seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel suggesting that there would be any real change for the betterment of criminals. I've said it to a few people privately and I'll say it publicly now. If I hadn't put in 4k+ hours I would not be playing Eclipse. If I was a new player now and I chose the criminal path I would quit the server within a week. It's the same old song and dance though. Any discussion about PD vs Crim or Staff vs Crim never leads to any meaningful changes. Just like this one wont. In both you have a party (PD & Staff) who refuse to budge when it comes to negotiating a fun and fair standard of play for everyone involved because they can just impose their will on criminals without having to give criminals any bargaining chips.

Edited by Copperhorse
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5 minutes ago, Copperhorse said:

PD relies on criminals to have a purpose of a faction. Keep shitting on criminals ICly and OOCly and you'll (PD/SD) eventually not have anything to do as a faction, just like we have nothing to do as a criminal community right now. I'd imagine you've already seen a significant reduction in the amount of roleplay opportunities you get as police now compared to a year ago. 

That's not true, and should probably stop being peddled around as an argument for no rules for crim RP. If there was absolutely no crime for an entire week, the LSPD could still do a great amount of RP, arguably even more than they can now. There's a lot of opportunities for passive RP, and community RP within law enforcement; Community outreach programs, public meetings, parking enforcement and other such things. These things are stifled right now by the constant need to have officers available for near constant chases and daily mass shootouts. The constant chases and shootouts are NOT a good thing or preferable to passive RP. 

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18 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

That's not true, and should probably stop being peddled around as an argument for no rules for crim RP. If there was absolutely no crime for an entire week, the LSPD could still do a great amount of RP, arguably even more than they can now. There's a lot of opportunities for passive RP, and community RP within law enforcement; Community outreach programs, public meetings, parking enforcement and other such things. These things are stifled right now by the constant need to have officers available for near constant chases and daily mass shootouts. The constant chases and shootouts are NOT a good thing or preferable to passive RP. 

First of all, nobody is asking for no rules for crim RP. If you think that's what we're asking for then it shows how out of touch this staff team is with the criminal community. Perhaps if the staff team involved the community in their discussions they would better understand what it is we would like to see.

Secondly, good luck with finding enough passive roleplay to keep the 200+ players in your factions satisfied. You have way too many officers than you need right now. If you are so committed to passive RP then you'd be performing these passive RP opportunities right now as there are very few chases and mass shootouts compared to months or even a year ago when you had a lot fewer players in your faction. It's not something that should be mutually exclusive. You can have people performing passive RP whilst others are arresting people or chasing a vehicle due to the shear amount of players your faction has.

Edited by Copperhorse
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I do agree with some of the changes but to comment on what @alexalex303 said, eclipse is where it is at today because of some of those fun moments that are rarely occurring now, and like @Bala said, A LOT of those changes unfortunately promoted Ruleplay and it roleplay. Immersion is totally ruined it and as Bala said “ you question yourself before doing anything” for IC actions thay make RP sense due to ooc repercussions 

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I think the criminal community would be healthier if there were more things to actually do.  From my experience as an officer, a lot of criminals fall into the same patterns of activity with little variation beyond what color their clothes and cars are.  Almost all criminals cook drugs or are involved in the drug trade in some capacity, because it's one of the few ways to actually make any kind of significant money.  Selling guns is partly successful, but this is very limited due to official factions having a monopoly over imports so if you aren't an official faction you are permanently forced into small-time trade of pistols and ammunition and this assumes you're able to cheat the firearms license system.  The biggest hurdle I've seen is official factions holding all the cards: if they don't want to deal with you or you don't want to deal with them for whatever reason, you cannot grow beyond beginner level.

I honestly think you'd see far fewer random robberies and overall toxicity if there were more activities to plug into.  While IC you can do all sorts of things like prostitution, street racing, embezzling, etc it's hard to keep things like this consistent and more importantly persistent beyond 1-off events.

For example, if there was a scripted street racing activity that players could join, follow waypoints like you do at the DMV except against other players, and receive a payout I imagine many criminals would go for it.  I also imagine this would promote IC rivalries to try and beat the bastards that always win.  You can organize such a thing IC, but there's little consistency.  A scripted activity provides that persistent thing people can do whenever they want and RP blooms from there.

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7 minutes ago, Victor Einhart said:

I think the criminal community would be healthier if there were more things to actually do.  From my experience as an officer, a lot of criminals fall into the same patterns of activity with little variation beyond what color their clothes and cars are.  Almost all criminals cook drugs or are involved in the drug trade in some capacity, because it's one of the few ways to actually make any kind of significant money.  Selling guns is partly successful, but this is very limited due to official factions having a monopoly over imports so if you aren't an official faction you are permanently forced into small-time trade of pistols and ammunition and this assumes you're able to cheat the firearms license system.  The biggest hurdle I've seen is official factions holding all the cards: if they don't want to deal with you or you don't want to deal with them for whatever reason, you cannot grow beyond beginner level.

I honestly think you'd see far fewer random robberies and overall toxicity if there were more activities to plug into.  While IC you can do all sorts of things like prostitution, street racing, embezzling, etc it's hard to keep things like this consistent and more importantly persistent beyond 1-off events.

For example, if there was a scripted street racing activity that players could join, follow waypoints like you do at the DMV except against other players, and receive a payout I imagine many criminals would go for it.  I also imagine this would promote IC rivalries to try and beat the bastards that always win.  You can organize such a thing IC, but there's little consistency.  A scripted activity provides that persistent thing people can do whenever they want and RP blooms from there.

I mean you must be out of the loop because almost nobody cooks drugs after the most recent update. There's no way to protect your lab from exploding and losing 500k worth of gear. Even if you water it every 5 minutes eventually it will blow up and cause you to lose money. If they want to making it so labs blowing up is the cost of doing business they need to raise the drug prices back to where they were pre-turf update. They got lowered from ~900 to ~600. A lot of criminals are resorting to trying to get legal jobs because there's literally no solid way to make a good consistent income anymore.

Edited by Copperhorse
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This is supposed to be role-playing a real world American city... how does fishing or becoming a medic or even a cop pay more than making and selling drugs with/for a gang??

It's laughable. My gang just fishes all day and maybe cooks some drugs when they just can't fish anymore due to boredom, because there's nothing else really worthwhile to do where the risk is worth the reward.

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On 11/19/2020 at 8:28 PM, alexalex303 said:

That's not true, and should probably stop being peddled around as an argument for no rules for crim RP. If there was absolutely no crime for an entire week, the LSPD could still do a great amount of RP, arguably even more than they can now. There's a lot of opportunities for passive RP, and community RP within law enforcement; Community outreach programs, public meetings, parking enforcement and other such things. These things are stifled right now by the constant need to have officers available for near constant chases and daily mass shootouts. The constant chases and shootouts are NOT a good thing or preferable to passive RP. 

Bro you are not telling me that if all crim players vacated the server, you'd be satisfied with having 'community outreach' programs and 'parking enforcement' as your primary RP. How about holding an LSPD bake sale to raise funds for charity? That sounds like a great time!

Your direct democracy analogy is kinda busted as well ngl. Representative democracy has only reinforced a two-party system in the USA and the UK, and the form of democracy really doesn't change the fact that people will always vote for their own interests, why would they not? Comparing ECRP to any form of democracy is a bad analogy, seeing as players don't get any kinda of vote and discussions are constantly put down. Whilst I agree that the robbery rules were a good thing, they were not objectively better for the server, as you claim, and the entire crim community expressing concern about what the rules have done to their gameplay experience shouldn't be ignored.

If you wanna form political analogies around how suggestions are received and implemented, then here's one for you: totalitarianism 😁

Stay safe my slime.

Edited by FrankieP
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Greetings @CalvinKlein, I reformatted your text, because it was difficult to read or understand, but I didn't change any of the wording. I don't think we need to bold the entire thing. Please also consider better formatting and sentencing in future posts as well, I only found three sentences.

The community is very much involved in the outcome and choices of what happens on the server and how it affects players. Much of the staff have been here a long time and have seen a lot. Everything that is decided is often discussed with these staff members who have connections with every bit of involvement on the server. From my experience, no 'crucial' choices are made without discussion or without good reason.

If there is something that has changed, that you don't like, it's likely because others have abused it, causing staff to review and look into an adjustment. Everything happens for a reason though.

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@FrankieP you have literally picked the two worst examples in the world, choose any European country to see it actually works.
Staff are still players, just like us, able to give input, as well as faction leaders being involved in some decisions that heavily affect the server like seen earlier in the year.

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I think we have to be a little bit realistic about the level of involvement your average joe is going to have on the decisions in the community.  People would obviously like to have some sort of say in their community but if you listen to too many people, it becomes a little bit like the inmates start running the asylum.

In terms of criminal stuff, if it was me, I'd task each faction leader of the main crim factions (official/unofficial) to speak to their faction members and come up with lists of what issues afflict the criminal scene, then dividing them up into sections;

  • Issues that can be fixed without script support i.e. rules.
  • Issues that can be fixed with script support i.e. features.
  • Issues that cannot be fixed.
  • Issues that are not really issues.

Even if you can only fix a couple of the problems on the list, you send out the message that you're not just open to conversations but also actively working with those factions to improve things AND you have less problems than you had before.

The problem with threads like these is the inevitably they go off in all different directions. Either someone goes off on a tangent or someone brings up issues that aren't specific to the topic. There are some well-known, well-respected criminal role-players in this community with both great ideas and perspectives that if they were indulged a little more, could really help that side of the server. 

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10 hours ago, FrankieP said:

Bro you are not telling me that if all crim players vacated the server, you'd be satisfied with having 'community outreach' programs and 'parking enforcement' as your primary RP. How about holding an LSPD bake sale to raise funds for charity? That sounds like a great time!

Your direct democracy analogy is kinda busted as well ngl. Representative democracy has only reinforced a two-party system in the USA and the UK, and the form of democracy really doesn't change the fact that people will always vote for their own interests, why would they not? Comparing ECRP to any form of democracy is a bad analogy, seeing as players don't get any kinda of vote and discussions are constantly put down. Whilst I agree that the robbery rules were a good thing, they were not objectively better for the server, as you claim, and the entire crim community expressing concern about what the rules have done to their gameplay experience shouldn't be ignored.

I told you that if crime was to stop for a week, that would be great. All criminal RP will never vacate entirely, the only people that will vacate will be those that are not here to RP, and only for action RP. I know for a fact that dozens of people interested in genuine RP left after being robbed at gas stations. That's never talked about.

The idea that somehow having less crime will kill the server is only an issue for those that seek constant shootouts and pursuits. There's plently of non-action law enforcement roleplay that can be done, and those were just examples. And just for the record: Yes, it would be a great time. Yesterday I spent a good amount of time simply talking to individuals, without any chases or shootouts and it was great. No shootouts or chases required for RP or fun. 

Comparing ECRP to any form of democracy is a perfect analogy because that is exactly what the thread you are commenting on is suggesting, they are suggesting the opposite of the status quo, which would be a direct democracy. He did want players to get a vote; I was not commenting on how things are now, I was commenting on how things would work under his proposed system. Please read the thread.

 

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7 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

I told you that if crime was to stop for a week, that would be great. All criminal RP will never vacate entirely, the only people that will vacate will be those that are not here to RP, and only for action RP. I know for a fact that dozens of people interested in genuine RP left after being robbed at gas stations. That's never talked about.

The idea that somehow having less crime will kill the server is only an issue for those that seek constant shootouts and pursuits. There's plently of non-action law enforcement roleplay that can be done, and those were just examples. And just for the record: Yes, it would be a great time. Yesterday I spent a good amount of time simply talking to individuals, without any chases or shootouts and it was great. No shootouts or chases required for RP or fun. 

Comparing ECRP to any form of democracy is a perfect analogy because that is exactly what the thread you are commenting on is suggesting, they are suggesting the opposite of the status quo, which would be a direct democracy. He did want players to get a vote; I was not commenting on how things are now, I was commenting on how things would work under his proposed system. Please read the thread.

 

I'll make only a brief point to prevent this from becoming another crim v pd argument. I don't think it's fair to link the concerns of crim players to them seeking constant shootouts and pursuits, because that certainly is not the case for all of us. I've always attempted to engage in meaningful criminal RP, favouring diplomacy over war when it has come to dealing with external relations in a gang (never been on for heavy PvP gameplay). I hope you can respect the effort that I and a lot of others have put into making crim RP somewhat deep and interesting, just as I know that what you created with WCA was undoubtebly one of the best roleplayed criminal factions I've ever seen.

I'll have to agree to disagree with you on the point about democracy and analogies, although I do quite like the suggestion that @Bala makes, where faction leaders can form suggestions out of feedback from their members. Community engagement is never a bad thing!

I appreciate efforts to engage in non-action law enforcement roleplay, I've had my fair share of such interactions with cop players, although I still assert that having a healthy and satisfied crim community will always be necessary for balance and enjoyment on all sides.

 

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I’ll say this again, I’m not discouraging heavy rp, or shootouts / chases (action rp like alex said) , neither am I encouraging them - but let’s not forget this is a game and again Eclipse is where it’s at today and the majority of the people here for a long time are there because of those fun moments, right now unfortunately it’s the sad truth but you see more ruleplay and script usage solely , than actual roleplay 

 

there’s also a huge difference between hearing someone and listening to them, yeah people post suggestions / discussion threads and they get heard sometimes but how often are they actually listened to? Take @Copperhorse thread for example about balancing the risk reward factor between crims to PD, no real feedback from higher staff was given, and it was turning to a PD vs Crim for a second, then back to the main discussion, with no actual feedback / response from the people in charge of the issue even though the majority of the community would agree and it made perfect sense to have this rule balanced out.

 

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