Create or Clarify the basic rights of citizens in the state of LS

[Linden]

10 hours ago, Wizzidy said:

A: Name change would be PG however not having the ability to expunge records, argue legality, and so on would also be horrible PG... this means if an officer doesnt like you, he/she can permenantly cripple your character with no legal recourse as has happened to quite a few people already. The policy is in fact CK or nothing.. even though a crime  committed so many years ago would be able to be expunged by state law in almost every state, definitely in California, the whole thing is "selective realism" its "reality" to deny a gun crime by knowing a person's forum name because "cops wouldnt fall for a name change" but it is "too much" to consider somone has speant over a month without a single crime in the game and should be eligible or a charge removal... charge expunging exists for the exact reason it is needed in this server, because you can cripple somone for life over 1 thing and never give them a chance to change. 


Proof that California does offer expunging of criminal records. 
https://www.shouselaw.com/expunge-criminal-records.html

B: Also I have spoken with the government and I have spoken with PD and the chief warden of the DOC where I have maintained a job for over a month of RL time without a crime anywhere and have done nothing but serve the people of LS has spoken on my behalf, to which what was received was nothing short of a "We will never do that"...

I have spoken to the chief of police, I have spoken to the commissioner...  I have used every route eligible while maintaining the cleanest record of anyone in LS. Not to mention the only reason I didnt CK is because I was told BY AN OFFICER that Name Change wiped criminal records, and I did it, now a month later I am expected to CK or face never-ending penalty?

Instead of assuming I have done nothing, ask, instead of just saying "court wont work" why not thinking of alternatives, I tried petitioning PD with the credit of the govt and a chief of the DOC and it yielded nothing because PD doesnt like to be wrong. I didn't always have a problem with PD btw, I only got this way because of this over-arching powergame... "5 hours in prison is too much for criminals they cant enjoy the game enough if they go to jail for a long time.... " same people "Killing a month of RL character development is the only way to expunge a crime where you never held a weapon and was slapped on you while unconscious in a hospital" seems good man... seems fun and fair... whos realism is this helping?


To keep this on topic, we need rights listed so we can use them. Right now rights are "Whatever PD feels like RPing at the time" and its not kosher... no courts is understandable it would be a shit show, but there should be some avenue of arguing against PD that is valid..... they are the only faction with the power to permanently ruin a character and yet they answer to not a soul.... no constitution is used... shit we havent heard miranda.... literally ever...

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of it somehow being powergame that there is no system in place to expunge records. The lack of legal resource is not the police departments fault and it's up to the government faction to put systems in place; if an officer is doing something wrong you are free to submit a report to their Internal Affairs division. Changing your name and calling it a "character kill" is powergaming and shouldn't be happening, it's such a fail rp system that is being abused. Having your record expunged is not a speedy process and shouldn't just happen because you decided you don't want to commit felonies anymore. IRL you may need to wait years, or it may never be expunged if the crimes you've committed are serious enough. Even if you succeed in having your record expunged you won't have your gun rights restored, you would require a Governor's pardon which is not a thing that currently exists on Eclipse.

 

You claim to have used every route available to you to have your record expunged but have seemingly only spoken with the police department about something that is not their jurisdiction or responsibility. You complain about receiving a "never-ending penalty" and yet you were the one who made the decision to break the law and get a criminal record, disregarding the simple fact that actions have consequences.

 

10 hours ago, Wizzidy said:

my complaint is never with PD in general, it is with the acceptance that they should be an unchecked power. I don't agree with it, and it leads to a toxic environment. A lot of people hate PD... I do not, I RP with them more than most in game... but I believe they need to be checked.

Just looking at your posts has you crapping on their RP and policies, all because you got caught robbing a store a month ago.

 

 

 

Anyway OT: Government needs to write up various laws to cover important topics, and should IMO implement a system of pardoning ex-cons. Suggestions like these really ought to be brought up to them directly.

[Randul]

1 hour ago, Linden said:

Government needs to write up various laws to cover important topics, and should IMO implement a system of pardoning ex-cons. Suggestions like these really ought to be brought up to them directly.

Currently being worked on. 

[Wizzidy]

2 hours ago, Linden said:

 

You claim to have used every route available to you to have your record expunged but have seemingly only spoken with the police department about something that is not their jurisdiction or responsibility. 



 

 

 

Anyway OT: Government needs to write up various laws to cover important topics, and should IMO implement a system of pardoning ex-cons. Suggestions like these really ought to be brought up to them directly.

I'll stop the back and forth cause I don't want it to get overwhelming to the post, I've done an IA report, and spoken to the government and PD and the DOC, which you would know if you read my post as I mentioned that... Also I was curious about your comment of me always hating on PD so I did a count, less than 20% of my posts are even related to PD or legality... 

 

 

1 hour ago, Randul said:

Currently being worked on. 

This is nice to hear, because I feel like if 2 hours counts as 120 months in legal time my character serving has served a lifetime of perfectly legal civilian work and service to the citizens and it was disheartening to be told he will never escape the black mark because no systems existed.  If you say its in the pipelines for some checks then that is all I've ever wanted . Thank you for your work.

[Xoza]

+1 I agree something simply should be written to display what you have the right to. Like the right to live free and right to own property, with the statement that you could lose these rights at any time based on violations against the state. San Andreas is a 'police state', however that being said does not mean the police run the entire state, it only means Law Enforcement has a larger responsibility when it comes to criminal prosecution of criminals and that there are less allowances for citizens, many don't exist even in canon GTA.

--

A lot of people ((Including RL)) don't understand the differences in public and private property as well as what legalities police officers have over the city properties.

The only areas that are considered and covered under 'public use' are any properties open for public use and under the responsibility of the government. This being only roads, sidewalks and even they can be closed by government or authorized workers for any reason. See the government as its own entity and it owns the entire state of which it allows its citizens to sublease property within.

The government and public property covers any property without ownership or claimed and responsible of a citizen or citizen entity. These other areas besides roads or sidewalks are often protected property, not public use and you can be seen as trespassing if you are entering an area that you really shouldn't be in or have no legitimate or legal reason to occupy.

Common procedure is to inform a citizen the property is off limits and they are trespassing. If they refuse to leave, you would give them a verbal, direct warning that if they don't leave they can be charged with the following crimes. Depending on violation extent and ongoing situation, the citizen could lastly be arrested or detained pending investigation.

Now, since the government, governs the entire state of San Andreas, law enforcement agencies have been given the authorization to protect all properties within. They have been given the authority to make temporary suspensions to access in the goal to protect the state, it's citizens or its employees in its entirety. Just because an area is publicly accessible, does not give you full right to do whatever you want on the property. Even if you own the property, the government has permitted you to claim, use and protect that property at your own discretion, however the government still governs over you.

[Wizzidy]

3 hours ago, Xoza said:

+1 I agree something simply should be written to display what you have the right to. Like the right to live free and right to own property, with the statement that you could lose these rights at any time based on violations against the state. San Andreas is a 'police state', however that being said does not mean the police run the entire state, it only means Law Enforcement has a larger responsibility when it comes to criminal prosecution of criminals and that there are less allowances for citizens, many don't exist even in canon GTA.

--

A lot of people ((Including RL)) don't understand the differences in public and private property as well as what legalities police officers have over the city properties.

The only areas that are considered and covered under 'public use' are any properties open for public use and under the responsibility of the government. This being only roads, sidewalks and even they can be closed by government or authorized workers for any reason. See the government as its own entity and it owns the entire state of which it allows its citizens to sublease property within.

The government and public property covers any property without ownership or claimed and responsible of a citizen or citizen entity. These other areas besides roads or sidewalks are often protected property, not public use and you can be seen as trespassing if you are entering an area that you really shouldn't be in or have no legitimate or legal reason to occupy.

Common procedure is to inform a citizen the property is off limits and they are trespassing. If they refuse to leave, you would give them a verbal, direct warning that if they don't leave they can be charged with the following crimes. Depending on violation extent and ongoing situation, the citizen could lastly be arrested or detained pending investigation.

Now, since the government, governs the entire state of San Andreas, law enforcement agencies have been given the authorization to protect all properties within. They have been given the authority to make temporary suspensions to access in the goal to protect the state, it's citizens or its employees in its entirety. Just because an area is publicly accessible, does not give you full right to do whatever you want on the property. Even if you own the property, the government has permitted you to claim, use and protect that property at your own discretion, however the government still governs over you.

Yea, though even what you say contradicts what is said by admins and mods before, where it is said that los santos is in a state in the U.S. of which there are no police states. Los Santoc is in the county of San Andreas pointing to it being in California.... so this is where the confusion begins. If it is in the U.S. and is meant to mimic the California state legal codes and the Constitution is meant to be what we RP for legality, then there are sooo many problems with the way things are done. There are some limitations to RP, as @Linden said, actual court proceedings for every case barely works in the real world because of the tremendous amount of time and manpower put into it, and could never be well executed, especially in a place where people commit crimes in broad daylight entirely too often. I do believe there should be some legal way to fight PD though, the US lives and breaths on systems that check each other and PD has currently too much authority to mimic the US. 

Anyways, I am sure as was said before the government will find a way to do things that is at least fair. Not every criminal wants to undo every crime they commit, some people just end up with a permanent record they can't fight because they don't constantly run OBS, or even sometimes because of glitches and bad RP. Cops are human too so there should be a way to erase their mistakes... IA doesnt cut it, because IA is asking the people who make the mistake, to admit the mistake, and it just doesn't happen much if at all. The government should have authority, but it is currently the worst paying and smallest faction trying to take on the biggest job... So I feel like ratifying some core values and right is 100% important, and saying its the US constitution is way off base because Los Santos can't follow the US constitution because of so many core game limitations...

[Steve Atkins]

Need a ECRP bill of rights. Cops drive around harassing citizens, intimidating them, running names and iDs with out probable cause of a crime being committed. Thinking someone is a criminal isn’t enough PC to search them. Seeing them with a weapon is also not enough reason to stop and search someone unless that person is already known to the PD and is know to be prohibited from carrying a weapon. Owning a weapon is a lawful activity that cops should be allowed to stomp on citizens freedom. Cops ride by the bank, run IDs, then make up some nonsense to justify arresting someone they had no reason to suspect of a crime. 

 

Cops pull people over and stomp their authority all over lawful citizens. 
 

need something written in stone so everyone is on the same page. 

[Bala]

9 minutes ago, Steve Atkins said:

Need a ECRP bill of rights. Cops drive around harassing citizens, intimidating them, running names and iDs with out probable cause of a crime being committed. Thinking someone is a criminal isn’t enough PC to search them. Seeing them with a weapon is also not enough reason to stop and search someone unless that person is already known to the PD and is know to be prohibited from carrying a weapon. Owning a weapon is a lawful activity that cops should be allowed to stomp on citizens freedom. Cops ride by the bank, run IDs, then make up some nonsense to justify arresting someone they had no reason to suspect of a crime. 

Cops pull people over and stomp their authority all over lawful citizens. 
need something written in stone so everyone is on the same page. 

In eight months, I've never asked a single person to move that wasn't a) too close to a crime scene, b) fucking around and/or acting stupid when i'm trying to do police work or c) standing somewhere where they aren't supposed to stand.

Can't comment on intimidating someone, because frankly no one role-plays fear correctly on the server, cops or criminals or civilians.

In eight months, I've never ran a name without being asked to by someone or without prior knowledge of that person's name. I can go in game right now and search up anyone's name on the database if I know it IC.

In eight months, i've never arrested anyone without probable cause or with reasonable doubt over their charges.

Your weapon license is at the discretion of law enforcement, so yes, we have every right to check to see if you have a licensed weapon if you are carrying it openly on your person. California state law prohibits open carry if you want to get technical but we let that slide. If you are complaining about having to prove you are licensed to carry a firearm with a murder rate that Los Santos has then you're a snowflake.

I can't hand on heart say that individual officers have never done anything wrong based on what you've said, we all know we have but for the most part, we are just trying to fulfill our role in the server, the same as the criminals, except our role is to stop crime.

If you see an officer doing something wrong, then take the time to file an Internal Affairs report about it, otherwise stop moaning.

 

[Steve Atkins]

then you’re a snowflake? Stop moaning?

 

Is this how you roll OOC? Unnecessary comments and what not?

 

Speaking in this way dosent contribute anything positive. 
 

I’d argue we need a document so we are all on the same page.

I didn’t ask cops permission for my license when I submitted it. 

My weapons license is a god given right. I maintain it by staying within the bounds of the law and all other rules we agree on as a society. Not because of some authoritative pompous law enforcement entity who graciously allows me the privilege to own a legal weapon.
 

No, you don’t have a right to check my ID at your fancy. In a just society you’re required to have probable cause before you stick your LEO nose in private citizens business. This isn’t some third world country. This is Murcia! 
 

So you never arrested anyone with out PC? (How noble of you to state this, it dosent make anyone trust you anymore) How many times did you stop someone and run their details without PC? harass them? Flex your authority over them to get what you wanted? Before you answer. No one cares or believes you Copper. You all are just as full of it as the criminals. You just wear a different uniform. 

Your thought process speaks to the reason LEO is perceived as power hungry abusers of authority. 
 

I know this is all true because am former LEO. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Steve Atkins

[Bala]

3 hours ago, GWXCORE said:

Ya know. I had false charges placed on me by some random cop at the scene of a shooting between PD and my gang. It took 30 ooc minutes and 12 or so cops to finally finish the RP of GSR checks, etc. They had charged me with murder of a gov official and carrying an AK when I had a pistol I never had the opportunity to shoot. When I asked for the badge number of the cop who placed charges so I can file an IA report, I was told by Reefer himself "you can't file an IA report, we are fixing the charges" when I persisted that I had a right to file one to document the officers mistake/negligence/corruption or whatever the cause was, he said "well I'll just deny it, don't waste your time"

That's the chief of police guys.

I can understand the mentality of what he was saying, essentially the reason for your report would be no longer valid, so you taking the time to file an IA report and then us in IA taking the time to investigate charges that no longer exist, seems a little bit like a fool's errand. Like I'd rather devote my time to a situation where there is something still outstanding to investigate. I can't go into details on the IA investigation methods but it is time consuming for us and we want to make sure that if we're putting that time in, it's for good reason. If the matter was solved there and then, taking it further seems a little unnecessary.

The only person in PD I can defend with 100% assurance is myself, but what I will say is that for the most part, each officer tends to get most of their situations right. I know that statement might raise some eyebrows but like, on duty as a cop, depending on your shift hours, you are having to a lot of these decisions which you have to live and die by. You might make 9 good decisions but get 1 wrong and that's the stick you'll get beaten with, it's the nature of the faction.

I've recently ventured into criminal roleplay on an alt and in terms of the freedom, it's like night and day in PD but you can only really understand what you know, so it's a big ask for me to expect you guys to see the PD side.

[Vyse Legend]

3 minutes ago, GOAT said:

I can understand the mentality of what he was saying, essentially the reason for your report would be no longer valid, so you taking the time to file an IA report and then us in IA taking the time to investigate charges that no longer exist, seems a little bit like a fool's errand. Like I'd rather devote my time to a situation where there is something still outstanding to investigate. I can't go into details on the IA investigation methods but it is time consuming for us and we want to make sure that if we're putting that time in, it's for good reason. If the matter was solved there and then, taking it further seems a little unnecessary.

The only person in PD I can defend with 100% assurance is myself, but what I will say is that for the most part, each officer tends to get most of their situations right. I know that statement might raise some eyebrows but like, on duty as a cop, depending on your shift hours, you are having to a lot of these decisions which you have to live and die by. You might make 9 good decisions but get 1 wrong and that's the stick you'll get beaten with, it's the nature of the faction.

I've recently ventured into criminal roleplay on an alt and in terms of the freedom, it's like night and day in PD but you can only really understand what you know, so it's a big ask for me to expect you guys to see the PD side.

I was a former cop, and now I'm a zeta, a lot of what people are saying is actually 100% true.  But I will say I haven't personally seen cops metagame using ID's, but it'd be almost impossible for me to have known that anyway.  

Further more, IA reports literally don't do shit, unless it's a big offense, otherwise it's a slap on the wrist.  I've seen big things get passed over and turned into nothing but a simple *Verbal* or *Written* warning.  A lot of offenses certain cops do or have done, should amount to an instant discharge.  Also, to your previous post of telling the guy to "quit moaning" and make an IA report, I honest consider that blasphemy.  Again, they go nowhere and it's just a slap on the wrist.

Anyway, I'm not going to go into a big rant about this because I know it's pointless but closing points are simple, if you're a cop, you need to put yourself in the criminals shoes, and think about you're doing.  We want realism yes, but to a certain extent because at the end of the day this is STILL GTA.  For criminals also, need to put yourself in the cops shoes, and think about what you're doing as well.  That SIMPLE mindset can cure a lot of problems, and can stop a lot of the /b that goes in the server.  

One last note as well, you calling others snowflakes and etc, is completely out of pocket.  You're a higher up in the PD, insulting people that have genuine concerns is not the way to go.  I'm sure High Command would not like to see that type of attitude OOC'ly, especially, since I know it's against the rules and frowned upon.

[kenichis]

On 6/11/2019 at 1:22 AM, ShyNudist said:

I only started playing on the server yesterday, but I will agree that it feels like my job is to drive a truck around and hope to not get robbed.  There doesn't seem much else for civilians to do, as the jobs (especially the most profitable ones like farming and mining) require zero player interaction, so I just drive around to try and make enough money for a car while hoping that nobody decides to jump me as I'm leaving the foundry.

Well its kinda like that for starter jobs, I agree that they should be better but on the bright side faction jobs have loads of interaction. Once you get enough XP you should join one.

[Nightranger]

Sorry to dig up an old post...

From what I have seen on this server, The cops unfortunately have a majority that just want to put anyone in prison, for anything they can. The RP is minimal, with some outright ignoring a citizen. 

Criminals, Generally acknowledge you, but again, unless you know them, the RP is minimal, unless ofc they are robbing you, and if so - The RP is one sided, always... Similar to cops!

I had a cop stand in the middle of our group on his own with a shotgun raised, while we have 2 in front and 1 behind with guns at him, telling him to drop it, He didn't, He just stood there barking orders, as if his life wasn't at threat.... Where was the fear RP there?

I've attempted to rp why I was robbing a store (Saying there was someone opposite the shop with an AK) - Cops didn't even check it just said - "We saw you robbing it, your going jail, tough luck mate, your never getting a firearms license now... lol)....

Stuff like that, Is one-sided, I can't get a legal firearm, so now Im forced to buy one illegally to defend myself, If I don't I get robbed constantly, never making bank, Can't call the cops, cus my battery's always taken, spend a couple hours walking around, because my map and gps have been taken too...

So the cops still have the power and authority on this server to kill someones chances on here, not to mention most the cops have a "Cousin" that does crime in one of the bigger gangs, You happen to upset one, and you get it both ways... Cops just dis-armed me legally for life, Criminals are now free to rob, kidnap, harass me as much as they want with no penalty, unless I "Break the law" to be able to defend myself, just so I can do some fishing/mining etc....

It limits the gameplay 10x when this happens, I'm now stuck where my character has to do crime, just to make bank, by involving himself with gangs. (Probably would have happened at some point, but not in the first 3 days of trying to figure stuff out)...

So, I fully support this, there needs to be a law system (This is probably the only RP server I ever played where there isn't some sort of laws defined and no way to argue it / petition it).

Just my two cents

[CrowCargo]

On the topic of bearing arms, in the state of LS a firearms license is a privilege, and not a right. Committing a crime and being caught in the act of doing it results in removal of you license. Now I’m not suggesting that all of PD maintains a professional and responsible course of action when managing and handling charges. There are people who RP officers responsibly. There are also those who do not. The IA system has always been a contentious issue, and faith in it even on a OOC level by and large is at a minimum from my experiences and perspective. I believe this stems from the large amount of time it takes and the difficult task the PD faces in finding the quality and quantity of staff to handle the volume of IA reports that come in. Having said that  there are two ways of addressing this. Firstly is to maintain and monitor the behaviour of officers more rigorously, by making them aware that punishments will not be handed out softly for misconduct and secondly by continuing to try and recruit people who can be trusted to handle the IA reports correctly and efficiently in the quantity required. 

 

Having said all of that this topic is becoming a little derailed. Can we try and keep it focussed on the original point rather than honing in too much. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by CrowCargo

[Steve Atkins]

I think we’re saying the same thing. Owning a weapon is in fact a right. period. 
 

Being committed of certain crimes removes that right. We in LS all agree on certain rules to live by. We break em and pay the consequence. 
 

I'm emphasizing the lawfulness of law enforcement to use seeing a weapon on a person as the sole reason to detain, run license, search, question the lawful citizen. 
 

We in LS should be able to travel and enjoy life without being harassed by the local gov. 
 

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Steve Atkins