GANG WAR AUTHORISATION

[BigDaddySco]

Over recent events with gang wars and constant DM blaming from all sides I have a suggestion that may help resolve the issue and bring better game play and RP to the eclipse server.

Basically, my idea is that if 2 or more gangs want to go to war then they have to do the following:

1. One or both of the gangs fill in a gang war authorisation form on the forum.

2. List reasons for gang war.

3. List allies gangs taking part in gang war.

4. Accept terms and conditions placed on gang war.

 

The terms and conditons could be along the lines of:

1. Gang war lasts 30 days from day of application for gang war is authorised.

2. Certain rules like certain aspects of DM & KOS with no RP needed in chat or comms needed are allowed during gang war but only towards opposing gang members.

3. NCZ rules will still be respected at all times.

4. All other rules respected during gang war.

5. Can only engage opposing gang members when you are wearing full gang colours as must be the person you are engaging. 

6. War can be ended early if one side surrenders via application to end war early. Otherwise war will continue for full 30 days.

 

This would not only help increase RP of gang wars like they play out in RL but would cut down the DM blame game and cut down on the amount of admin work that goes in to sorting out all of these complaints.

I mean, it sucks a bit that you have to have a conversation with a guy holding a powerful rifle or something when you're at war with him before you can attack etc. That just doesn't reflect RL at all and the DM blame game just ruins this server for every gang involved.

Anyway, id love to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions on this . It works in other games and im sure it can work on this without ruining it if its implemented correctly.

Edited May 9, 2019 by BigDaddySco

[Swifty]

I commented last month that the server needed some sort of rules of engagement and this seems to definitely try and go towards that path.

 

I don't agree with everything laid out in this suggestion, but I do think it brings forward a good conversation on a possible Rules of Engagement ruleset at some time in the future. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Swifty

[Copes]

Something definitely needs to be implemented so that gang wars go more smoothly. Rather than fighting IC it always ends up turning into an OOC forum report battle.

[Purmineli]

+1

[nikoh]

+1, who doesn't love organized crime?

[alexalex303]

-1

The server rules are there in place to guarantee a good roleplay environment. Pulling up to people wearing colors and shooting them down with no RP is the exact opposite of that. We already have convoys of vehicles of the same color chasing people in broad daylight. We do not need to suspend rules.

I suggest perhaps looking into allowing people to force CK other people, given sufficient reason. That would be a good way to end a war that would be through roleplay and not 20 people KOSing people in broad daylight because "we at war".

[Linden]

People are already trigger-happy and don't initiate in proper roleplay before they start shooting, and you want to make that allowed by the server rules? We need stricter roleplay regulations, not rule changes that negate the number of player reports coming in because people (cough Zetas) only want to win.

[BigDaddySco]

3 hours ago, Linden said:

People are already trigger-happy and don't initiate in proper roleplay before they start shooting, and you want to make that allowed by the server rules? We need stricter roleplay regulations, not rule changes that negate the number of player reports coming in because people (cough Zetas) only want to win.

 

4 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

-1

The server rules are there in place to guarantee a good roleplay environment. Pulling up to people wearing colors and shooting them down with no RP is the exact opposite of that. We already have convoys of vehicles of the same color chasing people in broad daylight. We do not need to suspend rules.

I suggest perhaps looking into allowing people to force CK other people, given sufficient reason. That would be a good way to end a war that would be through roleplay and not 20 people KOSing people in broad daylight because "we at war".

Not sure you guys read the original post in its entirety. But my post covers your concerns. Current rules make gang wars tough to fight which lead to rule breaking, accidentally or on purpose. This, as people have stated above, leads to DM report war on Forums.

My suggestion is to simply have more rules that allow for easier gang wars that themselves have rules of engagement placed upon them. As in, only shooting gang members while wearing gang colours. Not just shooting anyone.

Gang members can then wear normal colours if they want to go about their normal business or gang colours when they want to fight. The gang war rules would only apply during the authorised gang war time and when colours and active etc.

Not saying all of these rules are perfect but the current situation is a mess and doesn't allow for easy flow of gang wars.

The only result from this current gang war is constant DM reporting and now a gang being disbanded and people due to leave the server which hurts this good server in the long run.

Relaxing certain rules for a gang war while tightening or making other new rules to go along with them as in my suggestion works in other games and I'm sure it can work in this.

[Linden]

I understand what you're saying, but I completely disagree with it. Your method for reducing the number of people breaking rules is to change the rules so what they are doing isn't against the rules. It SHOULD be against the rules to KOS people, even if you're having a gang war, because the whole point of the server is to roleplay. You need to interact with people before you just shoot them. Sure it happens IRL but in the environment available to us it happens far too often and characters don't actually die when they are killed so you just end up with a cycle of retaliation between gangs. Everyone on the server needs to be held to a higher standard of roleplay but unfortunately the current meta is repeatedly robbing people once they leave a NCZ, shooting up gangsters, and baiting new players into giving you a reason to try and rob them.

With the influx of new players to the server, long time members of the community have been showing off the worst parts of the server in full force and teaching poor roleplay standards to them. People call out their demands then start shooting without allowing for a reasonable timeframe to respond. The complaint today against 14 members of the Zeta's has them give demands to raise hands in voice only and start shooting one second later and what you're suggesting is that we make that completely justifiable by the server rules.

 

As a player who isn't interested in gang roleplay it has been very difficult to stay interested in playing on the server, so anything that reduces the standard of roleplay by any degree is completely unacceptable to me.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Linden

[Msato]

I'm neutral with this one in my opinion.

I think the best solution would not be for KoS to be allowed but have "Deathmatching" apply less strictly to gang shootouts etc. 

The amount of time I've seen an opposing gang member run into an active shootout, get shot and complain about DM is crazy.

I do like the sound of having to make it "Official" that the gangs are at war instead of hitting each other over and over. But I'll have to disagree with the always wearing gang colours section. Gangs like the Clowns for instance don't stick to a strict colour scheme and you're not going to put a mask on before every shootout.
 

[BigDaddySco]

13 minutes ago, SkuLLar said:

You understand that gang wars are forum wars not really gang wars?

People are reporting rach other left and right

Yeah haha its figure of speech. What we mean by that is that gangs are using DM reporting to get one over on the opposing gang, trying to get opposing members banned etc.

I am fairly new to this, only been playing a few weeks. First day the gang war started opposing enemies attacked us, I circled around and shot at an opposing gang member. Next thing I know hes uploaded a video which was edited to a very short clip that made it appear that I was shooting at him for no reason. It didnt tell the complete story yet he used that short video to create a DM report which was accepted. Its BS to be fair and gang members for the most part should be the last people to be creating these DM reports for such reasons during a gang war.

What I am proposing is a way to reduce that DM reporting crap just to get score points and allow for a more fluid RP for gang wars.

Edited May 10, 2019 by BigDaddySco

[BigDaddySco]

37 minutes ago, Linden said:

I understand what you're saying, but I completely disagree with it. Your method for reducing the number of people breaking rules is to change the rules so what they are doing isn't against the rules. It SHOULD be against the rules to KOS people, even if you're having a gang war, because the whole point of the server is to roleplay. You need to interact with people before you just shoot them. Sure it happens IRL but in the environment available to us it happens far too often and characters don't actually die when they are killed so you just end up with a cycle of retaliation between gangs. Everyone on the server needs to be held to a higher standard of roleplay but unfortunately the current meta is repeatedly robbing people once they leave a NCZ, shooting up gangsters, and baiting new players into giving you a reason to try and rob them.

With the influx of new players to the server, long time members of the community have been showing off the worst parts of the server in full force and teaching poor roleplay standards to them. People call out their demands then start shooting without allowing for a reasonable timeframe to respond. The complaint today against 14 members of the Zeta's has them give demands to raise hands in voice only and start shooting one second later and what you're suggesting is that we make that completely justifiable by the server rules.

 

As a player who isn't interested in gang roleplay it has been very difficult to stay interested in playing on the server, so anything that reduces the standard of roleplay by any degree is completely unacceptable to me.

Totally agree with the high standards of role play. There needs to be an example of this and I also think that admins should not be allowed to be part of any gang and should stay neutral.

All I am proposing is a way to sort out the gang war mess to include more RL roleplay as one thing is clear, the current rules dont allow for this and causes the mess that we have at the moment which is constant DM report point scoring. Not saying what I have proposed is exactly how it should be but something along those lines can work. Even though certain rules during gang wars will be relaxed, other rules will be put in place.

I think that its definitely worth exploring is some form.

Edited May 10, 2019 by BigDaddySco

[nicklaseldal]

+1 on the moderators and admins to be working in neutral factions like md, pd or make up a new faction that governs the city in some other way. i know that admins and mods do that they can to be objective OOC but its not entirely possible if you have any ties to the faction, being reported. 

[Linden]

34 minutes ago, BigDaddySco said:

I also think that admins should not be allowed to be part of any gang and should stay neutral.

I believe that disallowing staff at a certain rank from leading gangs may be important but being in a gang is fine so long as they remain unbiased. There just needs to be accountability for ones actions and in the event of larger issues or issues with the higher ranks then it their may need to be larger repercussions. A warning system for gangs that are consistently problematic would be a start.

We also have the issue of some gangs being much too large for the health of the server. More official gangs with a reduced member count would be preferable IMO.

34 minutes ago, BigDaddySco said:

All I am proposing is a way to sort out the gang war mess to include more RL roleplay as one thing is clear, the current rules dont allow for this and causes the mess that we have at the moment which is constant DM report point scoring. Not saying what I have proposed is exactly how it should be but something along those lines can work. Even though certain rules during gang wars will be relaxed, other rules will be put in place.

I think that its definitely worth exploring is some form.

I certainly agree at looking for ways to sort out how gang interactions are currently occurring. The two largest gangs are in an alliance and have ~100 members between them, then the smaller unofficial gangs are working together because it's the only way to counter them. Random people are constantly getting caught up in the gang wars too because a shootout could happen anywhere, whether it's at the gang HQ or one block away from Mission Row in the middle of the day.

As I said previously we need to ensure personal accountability, but also accountability from gang leadership. If there are people in a gang constantly getting reported for breaking server rules we cannot just consider that the rules are the problem, but that there is a common factor in the people being reported. Some more clarification may also be necessary in the rules, but definitely not adding exceptions to rules for gangs.

 

Server staff may need to get together with gang leaders and discuss the current level of roleplay and health of the server to determine the appropriate actions to take moving forwards.

There is clearly OOC problems that are affecting the IC world here, and vice versa.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Linden

[Msato]

Thought it be best I share my opinion on some of the comments as well:

I'm a high ranked member from a gang that is directly involved it this war, I can assure you that the gangs aren't going out looking to DM but a war is a war and bullets will be fired. Even if some fired are mistakes, this also happens IRL.

The second area I would like to raise is the "Staff shouldn't be allowed to participate in gangs/lead them." This is absurd, all staff members join the server as normal players to begin with and they're going to stick with the RP that they enjoy. If staff weren't allowed to join gangs they shouldn't be allowed in PD either in my opinion. This is due to PD having a direct influence on the criminal RP of the server.

When it comes to the section of "Gang Leaders taking accountability" This already happens. All Official gangs and most unofficial have a punishment system in place for when it comes to members breaking rules. Just because they're part of the same gang it doesn't mean they're exempt from ECRP rules.

The final point I'd like to raise is the "Gangs need to talk to staff." As you're inexperienced with the whole criminal side of the server let me help. Every official and most unofficial gangs have "Faction Handlers". These are staff members who are designated to help manage and advise the OOC aspects of the gang. If there are any issues noticed from staff it will be raised to the gang. I can also assure you that regular meetings from the gangs leaders and their handlers occur to keep the staff updated.

Things only turn into an OOC issue when people take any given chance to the forums and even sometimes intentionally bait out reports.

[BigDaddySco]

47 minutes ago, CallumMontie said:

Thought it be best I share my opinion on some of the comments as well:

I'm a high ranked member from a gang that is directly involved it this war, I can assure you that the gangs aren't going out looking to DM but a war is a war and bullets will be fired. Even if some fired are mistakes, this also happens IRL.

The second area I would like to raise is the "Staff shouldn't be allowed to participate in gangs/lead them." This is absurd, all staff members join the server as normal players to begin with and they're going to stick with the RP that they enjoy. If staff weren't allowed to join gangs they shouldn't be allowed in PD either in my opinion. This is due to PD having a direct influence on the criminal RP of the server.

When it comes to the section of "Gang Leaders taking accountability" This already happens. All Official gangs and most unofficial have a punishment system in place for when it comes to members breaking rules. Just because they're part of the same gang it doesn't mean they're exempt from ECRP rules.

The final point I'd like to raise is the "Gangs need to talk to staff." As you're inexperienced with the whole criminal side of the server let me help. Every official and most unofficial gangs have "Faction Handlers". These are staff members who are designated to help manage and advise the OOC aspects of the gang. If there are any issues noticed from staff it will be raised to the gang. I can also assure you that regular meetings from the gangs leaders and their handlers occur to keep the staff updated.

Things only turn into an OOC issue when people take any given chance to the forums and even sometimes intentionally bait out reports.

Gangs are definitely looking for chances to DM report on forums though, we see it almost every day during the gang war. Nobody can deny that its actually happening and something needs to be done to resolve it.

Like you said, its a war and things happen and thats why there need to be some changes made to take that into account because as it stands, all sides are DM reporting at every opportunity and taking the chance of creating fake DM reports like what happened to friend and I after only being new to the server for a few weeks. Its really off putting and ruins gang war RP.

And perhaps not allowing admins to be a part of gangs is silly but they definitely shouldnt be making decisions that effect the gang that they are in. Ive heard many stories now of certain admins favouring decisions that lean towards their gang. True or not I dont know but im sceptical that it never happens.

Edited May 10, 2019 by BigDaddySco

[ViktorR]

The best thing would be to return back the turfs and if gang goes to war with another gang and if the opposite gang is taking other gangs turf then you can DM/KOS without any roleplay engagement after all the WAR means that you are fighting for something and the losing side would be decided on who will lose the turf I don't know the reason why turfs were removed, but as for my eyes, it had a good impact on roleplay before.

So additional suggestion would be to bring back the turfs with the rules that were before:
1. you need a good reason to go to war.
2. If another gang is taking your turf you can DM/KOS them without any roleplay
3. In gang war all member should wear the gang color/clothing

For the people who haven't been playing when the turfs existed so short intro - turf is like territory which belongs to your gang and there were 3 objects which you needed to capture to get the turf.

Edited May 10, 2019 by ViktorR

[DiCarlo]

The only way this would work is if they added the turf system back in and then gangs could fight over those areas to gain control. But it should not be a constant thing each area should only be allowed to be attack by an opposing gang after a certain number of house have passed. For example if gang A take control of ther turf it is theirs for x amount of hours (2 -6 hours say) and during that time no gangs can take it off them. After the time is up the controling gang has to defend the turf from attacking gangs for lets say an hour, once the hour is up which ever gang is at the control point and use a command to take control and then they have control of the point for the next 2 - 6 hours. The turf could be on a rotating timer so that every hour or so a new area is up for grabs.

Along with this system the turfs could also give the controlling gang benefits. Maybe the gang gets money for controling the turf or they get accesss to import weapons or even thier own drug lab that they can make larger quantity of drugs at. What ever it may be the gang gets a benefit for controling the point.

With a system like this in play it will give the gangs something to do while also promoting gangs to less likly want to align themselevs with another official gang and will also stop gangs from constanly robbing and harassing civilians for thier fish. 

[ViktorR]

Guys, after I saw this post I made my own post with the turf suggestion, show some support and give your opinions.

 

[Msato]

8 minutes ago, SkuLLar said:

Mind telling me what gang you in?

One of the founders from the Triads

[LongFist]

Make it so that /togglemask gives you a coloured name so people can be 100% sure you are in that gang

[padpilot]

On 5/10/2019 at 4:45 PM, SkuLLar said:

There was a war between some big gangs and smaller ones,

The small ones tried to hit up a rival meeting, when they came there was a car with rival gang members, the smaller gangs tried robbing but the guys in the car drove off calling for backup when backup of a rival gang arrives especially in war they should 100% be considered a threat, then a shootout broke out the rival gang has lost to the smaller ones, and reported them, here comes in to play forum wars, and alot from the smaller gangs got deported, but if the rival big gang would have won the gun fight no report would have been posted, or maybe posted so it too could have start a forum wars, the forum wars kill all the fun and make another not want to roleplay anything again against a rival

I'm considering joining several gangs but I'm unsure who you are referring to?

 

[Bala]

Filling out a form to fight another faction doesn't sound very entertaining. I'm just a humble police man but I think you have to accept that when it comes to gang violence, it be like that sometimes. The strong pick on the weak. 

The constant blame game comes from people wanting to be the one holding the gun, not the one on their knees.
Why do you think people don't make reports when they win situations?

I think gang warfare should never be "planned out" and "approved" but driven by purely in-character motivations AND with something to fight over/work towards.

If you are just riding around, looking for people to kill for the sake of killing them, that's GTA Online.

You have to consider how a war between two factions moves the server's story along, there is no reason why a war can't continue indefinitely but it has to be for more than just not liking another faction. Crips and Bloods hate each other in real life, but it's about turf and supremacy. 

I don't think you want to "reward" people OOC for killing other people but I think a turf system where it's just about being able to claim that a certain area is your area is at least a step in the right direction.

 

 

[Wizzidy]

I don't believe this should be supported... this is not a DM server, this is an RP server, we want good interactions so even the person being robbed or attacked can feel good... I do not think authorizing them to shoot on sight anyone with a green or blue shirt is the way to do it... I think the restrictions should instead be stronger... people reporting you for DMing..? Did you DM? Its not hard to avoid DMing someone, just don't kill them unless they attack... more than half the DM attacks come from people spraying bullets like its an FPS... I think honestly its just a matter of time, yes there will be lots of report, yes people will get banned... but the rules are there and reasonable. We should not be implementing systems that turn everywhere outside an NCZ into a battlefield...

-1