How to make Law Enforcement Vehicles Fair and Balanced

[Demonmit1]

• Who is the suggestion for?
  - Law Enforcement

• Why is the suggestion being made?
  - A way to incentivize law enforcement to value their vehicles and punish drivers who drive unrealistically.

 

TL;DR:
if an officer parks a car that has orange/red damage, they will be unable to respawn that car for a set amount of time while its RPly being repaired for free, so they can use it again.

Look, there's always been a Law Enforcement vs. Criminal argument. While it is a nerf to law enforcement, it's reasonably balanced without being focused on making LEOs spend money on repairs, gas, etc. We also want to avoid the asset-based mindset and argument.

If you park/garage a damaged cruiser (orange light/red light), you will be unable to respawn it for a set period of time. It could be 30 minutes, an hour, two hours, whatever. It would need to be tested and balanced reasonably( maybe have noticeably less time if its orange vs a longer time if its red?). This would be the time it takes to repair the vehicle RPly. You still have your other cruisers available to spawn, so you can quickly park a damaged one and spawn a new one, but it has to be a different model. You can't park your STX in a chase and pull a new STX to get back in the chase; you'd have to pick a scout, crown vic, etc.

This system still gives the officers the ability to reasonably drop off their cruiser and grab a fresh one to continue on with a chase/interaction.

This solution would give a fair and balanced way to handle the Cop spawning cars issue. It costs no money, as it would make sense that the department would pay for repairs, but it forces law enforcement to more carefully value their vehicle, as unnecessary damage would prevent them from using that vehicle for a set amount of time if it becomes damaged.

Law enforcement will no longer be able to quickly drive up to a police department, despawn their damaged car, spawn a fresh one, and get back into a chase/fight. They'd have to grab a different vehicle.

Law Enforcement will now have to carefully consider ramming in a chase as if they damage their car; they can't use that specific car for a set amount of time after parking it.

Law Enforcement will now have to have some sense of self-preservation when driving, as damage to their car that builds up over time will prevent them from using their favorite cruiser if they drive poorly.

There will be a wider range of law enforcement vehicles used as this system encourages players to use something different after they break their STX / scout.

It has a fair negative effect for misusing a law enforcement vehicle with a time lock, preventing the car from being pulled back out again without charging the officer money.

It gives criminals a way to combat higher tier law enforcement vehicles, so that by ramming/pitting them in a chase, you can prevent that officer from having access to that vehicle for some time after they park it for repairs, allowing for long term strategies and plans to be made to prevent law enforcement using high performance vehicles, as they would be damaged and RPly in repair at the station.
---------------
but a civ/crim can go to a mechanic shop and get their car repaired in 2-3 minutes, why should it take an hour to repair a cops cruiser?
Drive down to the mechanic shop and pay for the repair then. you want it free, paid for by the department? it takes longer. It also encourages more diversity in cruisers being used, and is a fair way to balance the rather powerful default cruiser options if you drive them stupid.

but what if i get griefed and someone intentionally is breaking my car?
You're a cop, arrest them.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2024 by Demonmit1

[heelsoul]

I completely agree with this +1. As someone who mainly plays crim but has also spent time as a cop, I've noticed that vehicle swapping during chases, especially high speed, gets done too much. It's common to see police switch from one STX to another when their vehicle is damaged or loses a tire mid-pursuit. This gives the fair chance for criminals to use that to their advantage  and escape, knowing that the unit won't easily rejoin the chase.

While I understand that in real life, officers have to report even minor damages to their vehicles, and that might not be practical for a gta roleplay server, there could be a compromise. For example, implementing a script that prevents them from using the same vehicle again for a set period, say one hour. This would not only balance things out but also encourage officers to switch things up and use a wider variety of vehicles instead of relying heavily on the STX and Scout all the time.

[Demonmit1]

5 minutes ago, heelsoul said:

or loses a tire mid-pursuit

this wouldnt/shouldnt have any affect on losing tires. you can park/spawn a new one instantly, as long as its not orange/red damaged. 

[heelsoul]

Hmm, then I don't agree. I believe, the whole point would be that, if their vehicle is damaged during a pursuit, then they cant just take out a new one, but thats how I see it. From where I stand, I would add on that if the tire is popped then they also cant take out a new one.

[Normal]

9 minutes ago, Demonmit1 said:

you can park/spawn a new one instantly, as long as its not orange/red damaged. 

i think if something like a tire pop happens they should get a timer when trying to spawn it that says something like "police mechanics are repairing the vehicle please wait" then get a like 90 second timer or so 

 

[devcs]

+1000

 

[Demonmit1]

1 minute ago, Normal said:

i think if something like a tire pop happens they should get a timer when trying to spawn it that says something like "police mechanics are repairing the vehicle please wait" then get a like 90 second timer or so 

 

11 minutes ago, heelsoul said:

Hmm, then I don't agree. I believe, the whole point would be that, if their vehicle is damaged during a pursuit, then they cant just take out a new one, but thats how I see it. From where I stand, I would add on that if the tire is popped then they also cant take out a new one.

could potentially just make any park/unpark have a set timer too. so refueling / minor repairs / popped tires cant just be instantly respawned and fixed. if you need to immediately go, grab a different cruiser model. if you want to use the same one, wait 60 seconds i guess?

but thats a different type of suggestion, this is more focused on losing access to damaged/heavily damaged cruisers.

[Normal]

20 minutes ago, Demonmit1 said:

could potentially just make any park/unpark have a set timer too. so refueling / minor repairs / popped tires cant just be instantly respawned and fixed. if you need to immediately go, grab a different cruiser model. if you want to use the same one, wait 60 seconds i guess?

but thats a different type of suggestion, this is more focused on losing access to damaged/heavily damaged cruisers.

yea i agree that when heavily damaged they should be restricted from that car for some time without going to the mechanic themselves and paying, but small things like popped tires should be like a quick, wait here while the mechanics fix the vehicle for you. but yes 100+ pd vehicles needa change in this way, would make cops way more cautious about ramming instantly

[Quietthecutie]

In a stunning turn of events, I a person who plays more LEO than crim these days, actually like the sound of the idea.

I like that its a nerf to hotswapping, i like that itll force LEOs to be more careful in pursuit lines, i like that itll encourage some use of patrol vehicles besides the STX and the scout.

For me the only thing im not sure on is the timer. Anything longer than 30 minutes dosent really make sense as this is on the longer side of most pursuits and i dont think the penalty should carry over from one pursuit to another as to be fair, the end of a purauit normally involves boxing or sometimes a pit and its natural your cruiser might take a bonking.

You could honestly just write it into the rules that you can only use one of each vehicle for a single pursuit, and the pursuit has to be over for like 15 mins before you can pull again.

[addybeta]

As a LEO player I support this suggestion. Us LEO's need more constraints when it comes to vehicle swapping. I have seen too many instances of a highspeed getting spiked and losing its tires and then instantly swapping for a new highspeed and rejoining the pursuit line, giving crims almost no time to gain benefit from spiking the unit. Not to mention the fact that I have seen PD pull out 3 highspeeds even though there are RPly only 2. 

I believe if there was to be implemented a wait time it would have to be for damaged cruisers and blown out tires, but with a MAXIMUM wait of 10 minutes, if not less. 

[Charlie2231]

huge + 1

[Jett_J]

-1 I'm a bad driver and want to insta-swap my car when needed.

Also pls add Vigero ZX to the highspeed list

[Demonmit1]

18 hours ago, Quietthecutie said:

For me the only thing im not sure on is the timer. Anything longer than 30 minutes dosent really make sense as this is on the longer side of most pursuits and i dont think the penalty should carry over from one pursuit to another as to be fair, the end of a purauit normally involves boxing or sometimes a pit and its natural your cruiser might take a bonking.

You could honestly just write it into the rules that you can only use one of each vehicle for a single pursuit, and the pursuit has to be over for like 15 mins before you can pull again.

 

17 hours ago, addybeta said:

but with a MAXIMUM wait of 10 minutes, if not less. 

so, the point of having it longer than the current pursuit is to enable strategies for crims to bait the high tier cars, disable them, and since they're on timer, then do what they were planning, knowing a damaged air 1 or the damaged highspeeds are on timer. law enforcement need to treat these assets as very valuable and be careful with them, protecting them if they get targeted, as it can cause them to be lost for a fair amount of time.

if a crim gets caught/stalls their car in a chase, they lose access to that car for 24 hours. you cant pull an impounded car out with a suspended license. 10-30 minutes for a cops cruiser i would say is not long enough to enable a fair back and forth to plan for bigger events, heists, races, etc. wile i understand that cops need to respond to multiple situations, it should still be a reasonably long lock out, like an hour or two. (there's like 5+ base cruisers available to every officer. if you're losing all five in two hours, thats your problem, go do a bike patrol, lol)

its not per car, its per officer, so if theres another officer that has access to a highspeed, they can pull theirs out as its not been put on timer. it should be player based, not PD asset based. for example:

officer 1 drives an STX. the STX gets totaled in a chase cause if their bad driving. they cant pull out a new STX for 1-2 hours, and have to switch to a new vehicle. they chose a scout, as its their next best option. a high speed is required, so they park their Scout and pull out a highspeed jug. the jug gets targeted cause it was pulled out by bait, and gets totaled. now officer 1 is unable to pull out another highspeed jug for 1-2 hours.

Officer 2, if they can also drive the highspeed, never lost their jug, and can pull it out and drive it. only officer 1 will be prevented from accessing cars they got destroyed.

Edited September 19, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Quietthecutie]

I feel like we are asking for too much, too fast here. the talk of crims baiting "high tier" i.e scouts and STXs (lol, high tier.) out in one chase only so they can do higher level crime already smacks alot of ruleplaying more than anything. lets settle down. I like the original concept. I dont like the idea of every chase now being a potential appetiser to higher level crime, and suddenly cops having to conserve forever incase theres a bigger shit stew around the corner. my original support was on the contingent that it would be limited to each individual chase and organisations could not chain them to their own ends, which would be again, ruleplaying/nrp.

Lets maybe run the idea of trialling a base level of the nerf before suddenly going full ham.

[Demonmit1]

30 minutes ago, Quietthecutie said:

the talk of crims baiting "high tier" i.e scouts and STXs (lol, high tier.)

was more saying baiting for the highspeeds / bikes, not the STX/scout. if a group manages to disable 2-3 highspeeds pulled out by different officers, those officers cant use their highspeeds for a fair amount of time, not just for the rest of the officer's understanding of chase, when crims could be doing it for a bigger plan.

but yeah, anything to start with to reduce abusing the instant vehicle swaps would be a step in the right direction

Edited September 19, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Bala]

LMAO, fair and balanced.

Bro has gotten started on that drug update early 

[Eliza]

bro i flipped a cruiser like 4 days ago mid pursuit and had to wait like 20 minutes before someone could pick me up

Edited September 19, 2024 by DontSniffSugar

[AnnoyingOne]

On 9/18/2024 at 12:03 PM, Demonmit1 said:

It gives criminals a way to combat higher tier law enforcement vehicles, so that by ramming/pitting them in a chase, you can prevent that officer from having access to that vehicle for some tim

This is not something that you want tho.

Unless you were involved in a situation where you might have fired at an officer, fired at others and officers saw you do it, 99% of the time you will get a proper chase which wouldn't result in your tires being taken. Now if during that pursuit, you don't run people over and/or shot at the cops/lead cops to ambushes your pursuit can last for 30+ minutes as Officers wouldn't use their guns against you.

 

Now, if you give people an incentive to ram/pit officers, that won't end well for you and we will end up forums again. People have to remember that cops are a reactive force, and someone ramming officers in a pursuit is an escalation for us, which means that yes, most likely use of force will be authorised, both against the escaping vehicle and the people ramming.

 

We already have situations where people very obviously block narrow roads at last second which ends up in officers being injured. And when that person eventually gets gunned down, they are never happy in /b, even though it was their actions that lead to it.

[Quietthecutie]

8 minutes ago, isBrainDed said:

This is not something that you want tho.

Unless you were involved in a situation where you might have fired at an officer, fired at others and officers saw you do it, 99% of the time you will get a proper chase which wouldn't result in your tires being taken. Now if during that pursuit, you don't run people over and/or shot at the cops/lead cops to ambushes your pursuit can last for 30+ minutes as Officers wouldn't use their guns against you.

 

Now, if you give people an incentive to ram/pit officers, that won't end well for you and we will end up forums again. People have to remember that cops are a reactive force, and someone ramming officers in a pursuit is an escalation for us, which means that yes, most likely use of force will be authorised, both against the escaping vehicle and the people ramming.

 

We already have situations where people very obviously block narrow roads at last second which ends up in officers being injured. And when that person eventually gets gunned down, they are never happy in /b, even though it was their actions that lead to it.

Valid point, Also its worth noting that the only high tier vehicle you could target is really a jugular (im gonna leave a shinobi out of the conversation for now as ramming a bike solely to try to total it is an entirely different shit stew i dont wanna get into right now.)

Criminals have access to any number of high speed, or specialised vehicles right off the rip. their advantage lies in being able to pick and choose how and when an altercation with cops occurs. you can start with as many Jugs, issis, LCs, Paragons, Niobes and other insanely powerful crap as you like so long as you are willing to pay for it. 

LEOs on the other hand, really only have the jug air and shinobis all of which will typically have to be pulled from a station after a situation has started. already giving crims a massive head start.

Perceived LEO advantage does not come from overpowered vehicles. it comes from coordination. the fact that LEOs respond in numbers to a callout, have procedure and communicate well. it has nothing to do with how powerful their vehicles are as 80-90% of vehicles in any given chase are scouts and buffalos, which are mid tier pursuit vehicles and easily outclassed by others most LEOs cannot deploy.

As I said, my inital support for the idea was to prevent hotswapping and hold LEOs more accountable for the condition of their vehicles, it was not to paint a target on highspeeds so that when the boys played their trump card there would be nothing LEOs could do about it. that is a stupid idea.

 

[AnnoyingOne]

I have said this in public before and I am all for having officers be able to "buy and own" ( while employed ) their cop cars which they would have to repair, albeit it inside MRPD for a cost and time. There would still be department issued cruisers, but Officers could get their own as well. Multiple FiveM servers have this implemented and I think it's a neat concept. It doesn't really make sense ICly and RPly, but I think it's cool.

[Demonmit1]

50 minutes ago, isBrainDed said:

This is not something that you want tho.

28 minutes ago, Quietthecutie said:

As I said, my inital support for the idea was to prevent hotswapping and hold LEOs more accountable for the condition of their vehicles, it was not to paint a target on highspeeds so that when the boys played their trump card there would be nothing LEOs could do about it. that is a stupid idea.

The concept of targeting a highspeed was just one potential strategy that could now become an option as a crim. remember that the option to just go to a repair shop and pay for the repair to avoid the timer was also in the suggestion, which would heavily reduce the effectiveness of the strategy. depending on how long the lockout is too would also reduce how effective it is.

The main goal of the suggestion was to stop what is effectively script abuse where law enforcement can despawn a damaged car and immediately respawn it with full health ready to go in a moments notice, and encourage more variation in cruisers being used rather than just the STX/Scout

Edited September 20, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Quietthecutie]

55 minutes ago, Demonmit1 said:

The concept of targeting a highspeed was just one potential strategy that could now become an option as a crim. remember that the option to just go to a repair shop and pay for the repair to avoid the timer was also in the suggestion, which would heavily reduce the effectiveness of the strategy. depending on how long the lockout is too would also reduce how effective it is.

The main goal of the suggestion was to stop what is effectively script abuse where law enforcement can despawn a damaged car and immediately respawn it with full health ready to go in a moments notice, and encourage more variation in cruisers being used rather than just the STX/Scout

Fucking window dressing. You dont actually care about stx/scout vs other cruiser variety or we would stopped the discussion there and youd be happy.

Now we are talking about targeting LEO jugulars for the sake of a future chase and this is where you lose my support because realistically, for coverage in an entire state there would be dozens of HISU vehicles available.  Pick a lane. 

If your concern is regarding hotswapping then a simple rule of "no pulling out the same vehicle twice in a pursuit." Would do.

What youre asking for has not a hope of being implemented because as i said, certain vehicles are the only way LEOs can react to certain crimes.

Dudes in a niobe and all we have left are scouts? Lemme wave merrily as they dust on by.

Edited September 20, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[Requiem]

I don't personally feel any "nerfs" or changes are needed. There are a larger portion of pursuits LEOs lose the suspect in than most people think, especially when it comes to the higher tier meta vehicles such as the Niobe or Drag. On top of that, there are little to no proper investigative tools to follow up on these pursuits afterwards, as there is very little proof law enforcement can find to guarantee that the person that evaded previously is the same person driving that vehicle now. And it only gets more difficult now that people can remove license plates for even less of a chance of tracking them down again. 

If you look through the responses on this thread, I don't see any of the regular criminal players that evade on a regular basis and at times easily win pursuits responding to this thread in support of nerfing Law Enforcement vehicles. In fact, most criminals that are decent at driving actually like the challenge of the better Law Enforcement drivers chasing them and trying to lose them, so much so that I see people regularly baiting a pursuit from PD/SD, even knowing they probably have a high speed at the ready. 

The above being said, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with trying to push for a change to hold law enforcement a bit more accountable for the damage they cause to their vehicles and some of the city property such as light poles and such, but some of that is inevitable to have when I can count on one hand the list of high tier vehicles 90% of the criminal players drive when they know they will get into a chase. I do not agree though that it makes any sense to try and disable Law Enforcements only tool (the jugular) to combat some of the crazy meta vehicles, such as the Niobe or GTO. 

[addybeta]

I think we need to take a step back and look at the original idea. I am all for LEO's not quickswapping vehicles all the time, since that is a little OP. The only problem I have is that an hour is way too long and it is going to end up with people just logging off because they cant use the car they need. 

I am happy with a wait of max 10 minutes if you park your cruiser with a red engine light, and or have popped tires. That could be a good place to start.

[Saint_]

The core idea of the suggestion isn't that bad, However, I think 30 min to an hour would be unreasonable for car repair times. I would be more then happy to wait at the Station for a 2-3 minute Repair time like the mechanics, or even have the mechanic fee be free for Law Enforcement to encourage more RP with the various mechanic shops. The only vehicle I agree that a 30+ minute timer would logically make sense for is Helicopters. Having seen and been in scenarios where a Heli gets shot down/damaged, flys away then comes straight back with a new one, Which realistically doesn't make a lot of sense.