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OBESE

LSPD public rule book

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24 minutes ago, Yputi said:

Screenshot_20190312-142814__01.thumb.jpg.bca21674c68a2108b499a93098db7a1a.jpg

Like I said, this is more of an IC info. I am not in PD myself, but I get why PD people give their -1.

Not sharing info is not PG.

 

You missing the point, Im not saying that it feels like powergaming because they are not sharing info, I say that rp from police feels like powergaming as there is not much you can rp against when officer has made their mind. Even your screenshot says in the first bulletpoint - Other players must be given a chance to roleplay outcomes of actions - so what are the chances given? How can I roleplay outcome of an action? What is usually done? Two things, either someone will try to run or jus obey, but the outcome will always be the same - behind bars. Why there are no one playing as a lawyer? Because there are nothing a lawyer on this server could work on to try to free his client or lessen his/hers sentence.

Edited by OBESE
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22 hours ago, Serthon said:

You are being arrested. It is then decided that an investigator will be questioning you, if that happens, an administrator will roleplay as an attorney (given the fact there are no actual lawyers on the server, governmental attorneys). That is what that means, you don't get to order a lawyer when being arrested if you aren't being questioned.

I would be inclined to see things from a PD stand point as to why they -1 if lawyers were a common occurrence in the server and so was legal questioning (i.e only lawyers have access to the mentioned documents to defend their clients). However everyone knows most of the time people are getting arrested they will not be questioned, once the officer has the narrative set in his mind it is difficult to prove him otherwise. There are very few exceptions to officers that do not do this and i congratulate the few that seek the suspects point of view. However its an overwhelming majority of officers that arrest based off of their interpretation of events regardless of what the suspect says.

 

Having the PD manual, rule book, code of conduct and radio codes public would allow civilians to be more informed on their own laws of the city they live in. As many have pointed out all of these are made public in the city LS is based off of. Should they put detailed SWAT procedures in there? Of course not, i don't think anyone here is saying they should make literally every operation public. Just the above mentioned documents that are public IRL in LA.

 

I also think making it public would go a long way to improve the RP between the PD and civilians as they could have an actual interaction based off of the manual, procedures they are instructed to follow, etc. At the same time the ones being detained can act as their own 'defendant' citing the PD manual or other information that is public IRL to rebuttal against the officer's claim or the way they have been treated by said officer to make the officer see their point of view more accurately.

 

3 hours ago, Yputi said:

Like I said, this is more of an IC info. I am not in PD myself, but I get why PD people give their -1.

Not sharing info is not PG.

I think what he is saying is more that whenever you have an interaction with PD that involves you or someone else being detained, it can almost feel as if its a 'choose your own adventure' type of interaction for the PD. They can take it many different ways and without knowing the manual, code of conduct, etc. You do not know if what they are doing is according to standard procedures and worthy of an IA report or a formal in person complaint to the higher up on the scene. So it can feel like powergaming from the crim's point of view when different officers say different things about the same situation, laws, etc. and you have nothing you are able to cite to prove them otherwise when IRL all of these documents are public.

 

Can someone make a detailed reply as to why people are -1 ing? I would love to have an actual discussion about this as every -1 i see being said citing 'realism' should be a +1 if they truly are aiming for a realistic experience on the server.

Edited by TheCanadian
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15 hours ago, 37hh said:

To all the in game cops -1'ing this saying it's unrealistic, I hope you realize all major policing departments handbooks are legally obtainable to the public, including the Los Angeles Police Department ( Department server is based on ) Handbook, Procedures, Manual's, Codes;
http://www.lapdonline.org/lapd_manual/
- Showcased in volume 4 of the above link is all codes used by the LAPD.
 

http://venice311.org/venice-lapd-scanner/lapd-radio-codes-references/
- Put in the link above is a dumbed down version, easier to read and understand, but still directly taken from the LAPD Manual provided on their public website.
Also linked in the manual provided by LAPD is all of their divisions, responsibilities of an officer, officers ethics, etc.

These are all public, along with court documents ( some must be requested in person via courthouse ), homicide investigations ( open cases are not available to the public ).


Players of the community should be obliged to view documents that police based on our server use, as it's unrealistic to hide these based on real life police departments ( again including the one this server and game is based off of ) and their policies.

The issue is of scale.

How many hardened criminals or life-long gang members do you think read the LAPD manual and quote it during situations? Maybe a few? if any.

Whereas if this is made public on our server, every single criminal will pull out LAPD manual quotes whenever they get arrested.

It will not be an opportunity for good role-play. 

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26 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

 It will not be an opportunity for good role-play. 

Opposed to what? not having lawyers, not being able to defend yourself, the cop arresting you regardless of what you say. The RP that involves getting arrested is already very low in comparison to my experience on arma 3 servers with full judicial systems. Sure, the issue is of scale. But IRL there are lawyers to defend the criminals, a court system, etc. where people have entire jobs dedicated to defending and presenting a case in favor of the criminals versus the case the police has against them.

 

You are bringing up an issue of scale as if the server is a 1:1 comparison to real life and completely removing the nuance of the judicial system that is lacking in this server making all RP related to arrests very VERY one sided for PD. 

 

If the manual is public, as it should be because it is IRL. People would be able to defend themselves, or at least try to and be more educated on the procedure the police must abide by. If PD truly does have a High RP standard, and a majority of them do follow the code of conduct/ manual/ whatever, then i do not see the issue here, all it does is inform the civilians and criminals to the standards of which PD must treat them, and how an arrest or situation is to be handled.

Edited by TheCanadian
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I am staying at my -1 as I still believe this is more something IC as well. And trust me, it is not because I am at PD or anything else myself, even I got 2 crime Alts and like someone else stated, criminals will just reach for those rules right away when arrested. 

I don't see why this is taken OOC, because PD arresting people without proof seems IC to me.

Corrupt things happen IRL too.

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It feels that the only argument why not to have the information public is because it would create discomfort to the police officer conducting the arrest. Of course criminals will quote the rules, but how is that an issue? If you as a police officer are doing everything correctly by the books, then there is no issue there. If you are not and you are mistreating the suspect, well who's fault is it then that the suspect has a case against you? Definitely not suspects!
 

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The mentality that @OBESE is talking about can be seen when PD roleplays checking the gun barrel for temperature. I have only seen that being done in this way /do would the gun barrel be hot or warm? So you are already guilty when they arrive. I once said my barrel was luke warm and that i was shooting some beer cans on the mountain and came to the place a bit further away from where thr original scene happened and i still ended up in prison with no evidence at all except my gun barrel being luke warm and 99.99% sure no witneses saw a thing. So from my stand point it seems to me that most of PD doesnt even take any evidence except gun barrels temperature when it comes to shootouts. Other situation was similar but the thing was i havent fired a shot and i got killed for nothing when i tried to escape the shootout and get my self to saftey. Argument for that was that i am part of the same group of people that shot at the officer.

This is only my POV and i am not acusing all of the PD for this. I havent made an IA report as my character took it onto his chin and moved on. But if we dont know some basic protocols of how PD works criminals cant defend themselves and they (PD) can keep doing more or less what they want with suspects.

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15 hours ago, OBESE said:

It feels that the only argument why not to have the information public is because it would create discomfort to the police officer conducting the arrest. Of course criminals will quote the rules, but how is that an issue? If you as a police officer are doing everything correctly by the books, then there is no issue there. If you are not and you are mistreating the suspect, well who's fault is it then that the suspect has a case against you? Definitely not suspects!
 

The argument continues to be that it would be unrealistic. If you wish to claim that not having a court system, is unrealistic, I can agree with that, and I'd even support a suggestion to implement a court system for major cases. However, the answer is not to introduce even more unrealistic things, two wrongs don't make a right.

The average criminal will have little to no knowledge of the exact procedures a police officer will do, and will often have very wrong ideas about what they can say or do, that's how we got popular common knowledge tropes like "undercover cops always have to say yes if you ask them if you're cops". You usually hire one or more highly trained individuals who spent most of their early life learning laws and regulations to defend you because you can't.

There are some people that take this upon themselves, and even record videos of doing so on youtube, but if you look at the comments, most of the average people seem to disregard them as unusual, because it is just that unusual. However, I believe that if this suggestion were to be implemented, most if not all criminals will be "throwing the book" at cops during arrests, creating yet another unrealistic situation.

In my opinion, the aim of server suggestions it to make the server objectively better, not to serve the interest of your character(s). If the suggestion you're making is self-admittedly unrealistic, but you somehow justify that by using other examples of less than realistic actions, then you should instead seek to correct those wrongs, rather than suggesting more wrongs.

Edited by alexalex303
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30 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

The argument continues to be that it would be unrealistic. If you wish to claim that not having a court system, is unrealistic, I can agree with that, and I'd even support a suggestion to implement a court system for major cases. However, the answer is not to introduce even more unrealistic things, two wrongs don't make a right.

The average criminal will have little to no knowledge of the exact procedures a police officer will do, and will often have very wrong ideas about what they can say or do, that's how we got popular common knowledge tropes like "undercover cops always have to say yes if you ask them if you're cops". You usually hire one or more highly trained individuals who spent most of their early life learning laws and regulations to defend you because you can't.

There are some people that take this upon themselves, and even record videos of doing so on youtube, but if you look at the comments, most of the average people seem to disregard them as unusual, because it is just that unusual. However, I believe that if this suggestion were to be implemented, most if not all criminals will be "throwing the book" at cops during arrests, creating yet another unrealistic situation.

In my opinion, the aim of server suggestions it to make the server objectively better, not to serve the interest of your character(s). If the suggestion you're making is self-admittedly unrealistic, but you somehow justify that by using other examples of less than realistic actions, then you should instead seek to correct those wrongs, rather than suggesting more wrongs.

And how I am suppose to correct those wrongs if I have no information available to even recognise them as wrongs in the first place? This suggestion does make the server objectively better by adding another element of RP. It has nothing to do with serving self interest. Like i said, if the officer has done everything by the book, then he should not worry about what the criminal is saying. if he has not, well then the criminal has all the rights to point out those mistakes based on the rulebook.

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As a cop i can see this as both a good and a bad thing.
1. if you want lawyers, then create a faction, speak to the government and get your self licensed to practice.
            a. This will both benefit the server and its players, this has been discussed a few hundred times, the issue with its creation was.
                     *Criminals do a crime, cop witness it directly, they call I want my lawyer. This doesn't work as with RL if a cop sees you rob a store, shoot someone, speed, run someone over.... your going to jail.
                     *Criminals and cops a like are often not interested in spending 2 hours legal role-play for a situation that will be concluded the same. The few instances that I have had legal RP with player based lawyers was a waste of time as the only rp the criminal did was "I didn't do it" or "Prove it" and based on the penal code and the way the server is run. If a cop directly witnesses the crime that is enough, as we are held to corruption rules and regulations above that of the general populace.
                      *The instances i have had RP with an Admin as the Lawyer, are generally with the person being arrested is being charged for a huge list of crimes via an investigation report, where both parties negotiate discuss evidence and conclude on agreement, which of course is capped at  2 hours of J-Time.
            b. Increase J-time from 2 hours. I have both a criminal and my cop, reason i say this is currently the fastest Admin lawyer situation i have been part of exceed 2.5hours and the criminal still received 2 hours of j-time, to which he just afk'd out while he slept. Mean while the other player, the cop and admin just spent 2.5hours discussing a situation where the cop directly witnessed the crime, (meaning it happened and you were seen doing it) so they just lost 2.5hours of their game time arresting and entertaining one player when they could of been interacting with dozens or dealing with multiple admin reports.
            c. The penal code is public you can find it on the gov't page, which i am sure very few people here have taken the time to read it and/or familiarize themselves with it.

Lets look at realism of other aspects of the community, as mentioned people are either cops, medics, mechanics or criminals.... Since on average there are roughly 1000 unique logins to the server (ball park) PD composes of 100members of which about 50 are active daily, MD i'm not sure how many members lets say 28 (based on another forum) and likely 15 active daily. so that's 65 law abiding citizens logging in out of 1000. leaving 935 criminals/mechanics and misc other small jobs active daily. With the crime rate in our city, using homicides as a benchmark from LS  and LA, our ratio of officers to civilians would need to be roughly 80% Cops.... 200players... that's 160cops... So lets put that into the equation here when we talk realism.

I understand that as a criminal you feel you are getting "shafted" when it comes to jail, but there needs to be an ic punishment for ic crime, I personally feel that yes certain parts of our policies can be public and they are on the government forums. I dont think that criminals should become whistle blowers and cop reporters. If you have ic or ooc evidence of officers arresting you without witnessing or evidence them please file an IA report, they are all reviewed and officers are spoken to. Reports that are just "i didn't do it" are looked at laughed at and thrown out. If you didn't do it provide evidence, but understand it needs to be IC for ic issues (false arrests, speeding etc.) OOC for ooc based issues but for rule breaks always report via the player reports section of the forums.

In Summary, Some of our policies are public, others are being drafted by the media relations team and will be slowly released via announcements on the police website.  Police codes I don't feel should be public most players know them... and with the current kos rules as soon as a cop says the code of a criminal in custody everyone comes to kill them... cops die far to often in our RP city as it is let alone if it was public.

I agree 100% that this is an IC issue and should be brought up at city hall, where a civilian spokes person with a list of petitioners and a representative from the pd can have a discussion with a representative from city hall, both voicing concerns and opions.
 

Edited by Jbacon
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Based on what your grievance is, this basically boils down to the universal concepts of what constitutes Probable Cause, Reasonable Suspicion and Evidence. This is a standard you can pretty much take straight from IRL police procedure.

The penal code is public, so you already have the information you need in order to point out whether or not your action falls under any citation/misdemeanour/felony.

Beyond that point, it gets fairly generic and falls down to the general competence of an officer, just as an IA report after the fact will fall to the competence of the person processing it.

Clearly, checking for a "warm gun" is not enough on its own to prove you were the shooter, but it does then give the officer a case for seeing if they could match bullets/casings from the scene to your weapon or, if there's clearly no way you're close enough to a location where you could legitimately fire it and have it not be cold, then at minimum, a lesser charge is appropriate.

Ultimately, though, the current argument is coming down to wanting to learn the meta for the purposes of "avoiding a loss" rather than improving the RP experience - in fact, I suspect it will simply generate yet more smart-alec crim behaviour driven by either misinterpretations of procedure or petty attempts to invoke IA reports against officers for superfluous procedure mistakes. Being salty about a conviction that you would have received anyway had yet more time been spent on you (and thus, denied to the rest of the server players) really isn't the way to go - if, however, there was legitimately no way that evidence could have been obtained, that's an IA/powergaming matter which can be taken to the relevant people.

So, in the absence of a different and more compelling reason to publicise it, I don't see this as a beneficial change.

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