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XeV

TeamSpeak Needs To Be Available For All

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On 8/3/2022 at 10:04 AM, Valor said:

We don't have a dispatch so that would not work, literally ever. (and implementing one would be completely unsustainable).

The only way this works is if we somehow have 2 radios, one with the main frequency and the rest with all of our tacs, there are days where we have 4 TAC's on both sides and a J-TAC going because every organization in the city happens to be acting up that day. Without a dispatch system in place finding each other would be impossible.

Also +1.

Have you ever heard of radio binds? Not that hard set a main freq then have 5 tac freqs ik you guys use a pager to get swat on when there is a shootout so just put an ic channel in a discord with all the freqs and have staff set them as leo only or leo + MD 

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6 hours ago, Umbra_Smith said:

Hey there, could you elaborate on this point please and maybe state the reasons why you don't believe LEOs need Teamspeak? Thanks.

Sure man! Within the game your allowed 9 binds for radios, shift + number let’s u change frequency now to start fixing the conundrum where pd is 100x more powerful than pd is to start off not allowing one to use something like teamspeak to communicate, or let both sides can u explain why pd needs ts when the game has 9 binds u can set, but criminals don’t? other than the typical pd “well for one pd = more advanced” thank u 😊 

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6 hours ago, LucasMadrazo said:

200 pages is light,

real officers go to school for it nah?

On the old SAMP server I was a PD Captain, I remember having to study for about an IRL month and pass a REAL test. I read WAYYYYY more than just 200 pages

How is this constructive? 

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As a quick point, none of my posts are meant malicious it is just me airing my grievences that I know me and alot of others have in a public setting and having a discussion about why something is the way it is and what can we do to change it possibly so everyone is on the same playing field to an extent

In saying I appreciate all the actual responses from people some even being LEO that are willing to type an actual sentence to explain why It is not ok or Why it IS the way it is

for the LEO's that just type troll answers on a discussion thread I hope one day you are able to tie your own shoes.

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1 hour ago, La Ventana said:

Have you ever heard of radio binds? Not that hard set a main freq then have 5 tac freqs ik you guys use a pager to get swat on when there is a shootout so just put an ic channel in a discord with all the freqs and have staff set them as leo only or leo + MD 

You're literally not understanding what I said. I said, we have 5+ situations going on at a time, how are they supposed to know where people are or how to organize things if we can't hear our main frequency at the same time as while we're in tactical situations. In fact, please apply to PD/SD and RP as one of them for a while so that you can comprehend what I am saying.

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On 8/5/2022 at 8:52 PM, AnakinB said:

Sure man! Within the game your allowed 9 binds for radios, shift + number let’s u change frequency now to start fixing the conundrum where pd is 100x more powerful than pd is to start off not allowing one to use something like teamspeak to communicate, or let both sides can u explain why pd needs ts when the game has 9 binds u can set, but criminals don’t? other than the typical pd “well for one pd = more advanced” thank u 😊 

Perhaps reference the multiple posts from LEO players giving the exact reason why this doesn't work and why PD needs TS and how not using TS and only the in game radio has been significantly tested by LEOs and server staff and it did not work. As mentioned by JBacon, if dev support can allow for multiple radio freqs at once in game to allow LEOs to function properly, then we can get rid of TS!

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I believe looking into making VOIP more reliable is a more realistic approach than allowing everyone on a third party program to communicate to each other.

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PD/SD/DOC/GOV all get to be able to use TeamSpeak to bypass this issue entirely and NEVER have a problem communicating comms with the multiple different channels and keybinds.

TeamSpeak has never been the reason to bypass this issue. Since I am no longer part of PD, I will only speak on behalf of DOC: TeamSpeak is barely being used by DOC. Only for JTAC. Also not because VOIP sometimes has issues in reliability. If a player has VOIP issues while in TeamSpeak, they also need to make sure they fix it, because they also need to be able to be heard in-game by other players.
I believe every faction would rather have all communication being done in-game only instead of moving to other software. It makes it easier for everyone. No need to set key binds to make sure you can also be heard in-game while speaking over TeamSpeak, no need to install extra software at all and no need to be extra cautious to make sure players don't (accidentally) metagame.

Moving to TeamSpeak is, in my own opinion, a step in the wrong direction. A step towards moving everything in-game instead would be a much better approach I believe.

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PD/SD/DOC/GOV all get to be able to use TeamSpeak to bypass this issue entirely and NEVER have a problem communicating comms with the multiple different channels and keybinds.

It's already been said by a few others, I believe, but I will say it again. TeamSpeak is not a replacement for our ingame radio, it's IC channels are used entirely independently from the radio as an addition to enable us to use multiple radio channels simultaniously for tactical situations with a high amount of radio traffic which would otherwise clutter the radio and make it impossible for units that are not involved in these situations to continue fulfilling their duties, which is realistic and an absolute necessity for a Law Enforcement Agency to function on the field. We can't go without. Of course an ingame solution would be preferable in the future, but we don't have that right now.

It is however not the advantage you might be lead to believe it is, as for 95% of the time an LEO spends on duty, they will not be in a tactical channel and merely utilizing the ingame radio like everyone else on the server.
Yes, it does unfortunately happen that sometimes, while a LEO is talking in a tactical channel through teamspeak, they will need a /vr and are not able to be heard ingame. This is unfortunate and a slight advantage in a very specific set of situations, until they are notified of them needing said /vr, which they, obviously, will be in usually a short matter of time.

That said, for 95% of the time a LEO spends on duty, they are faced with much the same issues. Teamspeak does not fix or influence the issue of VOIP breaking in situations in which LEOs are not in a tactical channel. 
For example, if a LEOs VOIP is not functional and they get shot at during a traffic stop and attempt to call this out, they would do so ONLY over the ingame radio, so if their VOIP is broken, they are faced with the same disadvantage as everyone else, as they are unable to announce themselves being shot at. For units to be called into a tactical channel for a tactical situation, a LEO is REQUIRED to use the ingame radio, there is no other way of doing so.

I wholeheartedly invite you to partake in a ride-along on a character that is eligible to participate in the program.
I have no doubts that you will see and experience the way we use radios and tactical frequencies in the field if you do so, and I'm sure this would clear up some misconceptions that appear to be quite widely spread, and even if that doesn't change your mind about the matter, you will be able to have a more educated opinion afterwards nonetheless. I'd call that a win-win.

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As someone who has been on ride-alongs where I've sat in JTAC and worked for MD for almost a year. I hated teamspeak and never used it. It was only really used for metagaming or for mixing where people would try to get to know you OOCly while you were trying to RP. This happened EVERYTIME I was in the MD TS. Not just that, but people would use it to meta game what cops were doing or why they weren't responding.

LEO's have literally all the 900 radio frequencies to themselves. It is more than possible to have multiple JTACs.

As for knowing how many people are on one pursuit vs. another. A simple solution would be to limit the amount of cruisers that can be in each situation. cap it off at 5 and then once you've hit it, any extras should go back to their normal frequency. This would also help with the problem that I've seen so many times where there's 10+ cops chasing one car.

10+ cops that can completely total their car and just go get a new one. 10+ cops that don't have to worry about refueling. 10+ cops that can never have their radio frequency compromised because it's scriptly not possible. All things that seem pretty NRP, and are for criminals to do, but not LEO's.

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1 hour ago, Olivia Can said:

As someone who has been on ride-alongs where I've sat in JTAC and worked for MD for almost a year. I hated teamspeak and never used it. It was only really used for metagaming or for mixing where people would try to get to know you OOCly while you were trying to RP. This happened EVERYTIME I was in the MD TS. Not just that, but people would use it to meta game what cops were doing or why they weren't responding.

LEO's have literally all the 900 radio frequencies to themselves. It is more than possible to have multiple JTACs.

As for knowing how many people are on one pursuit vs. another. A simple solution would be to limit the amount of cruisers that can be in each situation. cap it off at 5 and then once you've hit it, any extras should go back to their normal frequency. This would also help with the problem that I've seen so many times where there's 10+ cops chasing one car.

10+ cops that can completely total their car and just go get a new one. 10+ cops that don't have to worry about refueling. 10+ cops that can never have their radio frequency compromised because it's scriptly not possible. All things that seem pretty NRP, and are for criminals to do, but not LEO's.

Allegations of Metagaming should be dealt with by reporting it to LFM and staff via a forum report.

As for ''LEO's have literally all the 900 radio frequencies to themselves. It is more than possible to have multiple JTACs. ''

It's already been pointed that PD/SD have a drastically different set of circumstances that justify the use of teamspeak. Furthermore, if script support is implemented to accommodate those circumstances, I doubt anyone would have an issue with switching over.

 

Lastly as a general comment about the thread.

I agree doing /vr 1 every so often is pretty bad, but the solution isn't opening the flood gates for everyone to use teamspeak, keep in mind LSPD/LSSD are factions that are highly regulated, needing to maintain and extreme amount of oversight on teamspeak as it is a privilege granted by staff. Anyone found abusing this privilege will quickly be dealt with and as mentioned above, anyone who notices this being abuse can and has the obligation to report this. (instead of commenting with baseless allegations.)

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1 hour ago, Olivia Can said:

It was only really used for metagaming or for mixing where people would try to get to know you OOCly while you were trying to RP.

You're expressing one side of a 4 sided die.

Let's address your Mixing and Metagaming remarks first: You state that 90% of the time, it's people metagaming and mixing.
Firstly, Metagaming - Again, most likely from an MD side, since you lot don't see the same dispatch notices that PD/SD do, it is inevitable for MD/DOC to naturally metagame this information and casually mix it. However, is this something that you brought up with Aldarine, since she was not only a staff member, but the Leader of MD during your tenure?

Secondly - Mixing
Because MD don't use TAC near frequently enough, and you're getting annoyed at people trying to OOCly get to know you, have you ever thought about Muting your Teamspeak until required, or keeping the program off, and same follow up question as before, did you raise this issues with Aldarine?

MD are very rarely going to ever need to utilize TAC radio or JTAC radio for the same reason that DOC do. You aren't getting into regular 40 v 40 shootouts nor do you have several pursuit situations going on all simultanerously.
 

1 hour ago, Olivia Can said:

cap it off at 5 and then once you've hit it, any extras should go back to their normal frequency


Let's say this for example, 4 different pursuits are all happening at once, all of them with different criminal organizations, Pursuit A was going on first and is unaware of Pursuits B, C, and D.

Pursuit A starts getting shot at from 6+ vehicles with 15 others on foot who try to take out tires at an ambush site.
Code 1 is called, meaning shit is actively hitting the fan, everyone drop everything and get here (as you'll know from your MD training)
Let's say it's just a handful of non-supervisory units who don't have the foresight to go into every other TAC bind as suggested (being the ones 900+, not the TS ones) and we're left with 13 units fending off a possible 27 man ambush.

Does this level the playing field? Some would argue yes because of equipment, however Groups that typically push these specific kinds of engagements, have kevlar, have AKs, have specially imported weapons to use against PD.

Your outlook on this is flawed

 

1 hour ago, Olivia Can said:

10+ cops that can completely total their car and just go get a new one

1 hour ago, Olivia Can said:

10+ cops that don't have to worry about refueling.

Not Relevant to the discussion at hand.

1 hour ago, Olivia Can said:

10+ cops that can never have their radio frequency compromised because it's scriptly not possible.

Nor would it be possible for a Police Situation radio frequency to be compromised as such either. Do I think that there should be radio scanners available for import at an exorbitant price? Sure. Do I think that a criminal should be able to accidentally stumble onto our radio? No, because that isn't realistic, in fact, retail radios are tuned as such, as they're INCAPABLE of tuning into emergency frequencies, hence why Radio scanners are just that, scanners. You cannot participate in radio conversation.

Instead of making statements based on personal belief, Make some that are grounded in reality. 

What XeV is attempting to do, is cause some legitimate discourse about the state of not only the VOIP system, but also its unreliability, which forces PD/SD (DOC and MD use it optionally) to utilize such 3rd party programs such as TeamSpeak, so that we can not only coordinate much easier, but also do so without giving each other headaches, and confusing the absolute hell out of newer members of our factions.

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There is definitely something to be desired in the way things are set up at the moment with LEO using TS, it's not perfect but it's essential. As has been mentioned previously, it's vital for supervisors who are essentially acting dispatchers to be able to see who is involved in which situation but as it stands at the moment, there is no way to see who exactly is tuned into a certain frequency so managing units and allocating them to the situations that is required would be an absolute ball-ache. Maybe if there was a way to visibly see who was tuned into which frequency via the script then sure but that would still leave a lot to be desired.

As it stands at the moment, it's not ideal but it works and it's a necessary tool for LEO and emergency workers to function properly. If we were striving to make things "fair" and "realistic" then I ask you, how many people do you see using a radio in real life outside of Law Enforcement and Emergency Workers. I for 1 have never seen anybody walk around with a radio in their ear when their job doesn't require it.

 

tldr; TS, Radios and TAC are not perfect, require some fixing and tweaking but it's necessary for those factions to function.

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2 hours ago, Homast said:

you're getting annoyed at people trying to OOCly get to know you

 

2 hours ago, Homast said:

it is inevitable for MD/DOC to naturally metagame this information and casually mix it

I mean is this what happens in JTAC, TAC, TS? confused 

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2 hours ago, Cyrus Raven said:

Allegations of Metagaming should be dealt with by reporting it to LFM and staff via a forum report.

A. it's way past the time I'd be able to report and B. Just like... big LOL to this as that really wouldn't have ever been a thing as we would've had no MD at the time if I actually did it. Not just that but I was new to the server and the time and didn't completely understand everything and the people who were more experienced then we were the ones doing it. Staff included (shocker). These aren't baseless and the sentiment was shared by the majority of MD at the time.
 

2 hours ago, Homast said:

You're expressing one side of a 4 sided die.

Let's address your Mixing and Metagaming remarks first: You state that 90% of the time, it's people metagaming and mixing.
Firstly, Metagaming - Again, most likely from an MD side, since you lot don't see the same dispatch notices that PD/SD do, it is inevitable for MD/DOC to naturally metagame this information and casually mix it. However, is this something that you brought up with Aldarine, since she was not only a staff member, but the Leader of MD during your tenure?

Secondly - Mixing
Because MD don't use TAC near frequently enough, and you're getting annoyed at people trying to OOCly get to know you, have you ever thought about Muting your Teamspeak until required, or keeping the program off, and same follow up question as before, did you raise this issues with Aldarine?

MD are very rarely going to ever need to utilize TAC radio or JTAC radio for the same reason that DOC do. You aren't getting into regular 40 v 40 shootouts nor do you have several pursuit situations going on all simultanerously.

You missed where I said ridealongs as well. These were PD and SD ridealongs.

If you'd like me to answer every one of your questions I can, but it wouldn't change the fact that you can't literally go around punishing everyone for using something staff has deemed okay for LEO's. Not just that but I supposed you missed where I said I NEVER used it because of the metagaming. I even refused when I was told by SUPERIORS to get into TS. They'd reach out in fchat to get me on and I would say it was just used for mixing so I didn't want to. And yep, nothing changed. Despite apparent staff members, which Aldarine is awesome, but I do not expect her to spend her time monitoring each TS channel of MD for mixing. And simply saying "don't mix" is pointless.
 

1 hour ago, MrFelix said:

If we were striving to make things "fair" and "realistic" then I ask you, how many people do you see using a radio in real life outside of Law Enforcement and Emergency Workers. I for 1 have never seen anybody walk around with a radio in their ear when their job doesn't require it.

This comment is irrelevant as typically you would be able to have group chats over text, talk over other methods of communication, or radio over your phone (which is commonly used by civilians). Not just that, but there are TONS of things that are unrealistic about ECRP... I don't think we should be nitpicky about radios.

2 hours ago, Homast said:

Instead of making statements based on personal belief, Make some that are grounded in reality.

These ARE problems with TS regardless of whether or not you chose to admit it. TS cannot be monitored like ECRP can. This is grounded in reality. If you choose to stay in the clouds where TS is perfect for LEO's then go ahead. However, if everyone else (illegals) has to find IC ways to go about things and can't call for gang back up, then I don't see why LEO's, that are comprised of staff, who should be the ones showcasing how RP should be done on the server, cannot come up with an IC way to use JTAC.
 

2 hours ago, Homast said:

What XeV is attempting to do, is cause some legitimate discourse about the state of not only the VOIP system, but also its unreliability, which forces PD/SD (DOC and MD use it optionally) to utilize such 3rd party programs such as TeamSpeak, so that we can not only coordinate much easier, but also do so without giving each other headaches, and confusing the absolute hell out of newer members of our factions.

What I am attempting to do is explain why, despite the problems with current voice and needing to /vr 1, that we should give up TS and try for OTHER ways IN GAME that would solve the problem. Such as coding that allows for each time N, M, or P is pressed /vr 1 is also pressed. Therefore there would be an auto reset on voice chat each time and no one would have to worry about typing /vr 1 again.

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10 minutes ago, Olivia Can said:

A. it's way past the time I'd be able to report and B. Just like... big LOL to this as that really wouldn't have ever been a thing as we would've had no MD at the time if I actually did it. Not just that but I was new to the server and the time and didn't completely understand everything and the people who were more experienced then we were the ones doing it. Staff included (shocker). These aren't baseless and the sentiment was shared by the majority of MD at the time.

With all due respect, they are baseless the moment you have neither any corroborating evidence or other people to backup what you're saying.

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11 minutes ago, Stew Walker said:

I mean is this what happens in JTAC, TAC, TS? confused

I won't say that it doesn't entirely, because that's ignorant to say, But I have not seen any Mixing personally from SD side. 
TAC and JTAC are IC channels explained as situation frequencies. It's common for police units and especially supervisors to be able to see a frequency active and tune in if needed.

12 minutes ago, Olivia Can said:

You missed where I said ridealongs as well. These were PD and SD ridealongs.

You also missed the part where I asked if you had told anyone of this? You claim to not want the mixing, but take no action asides from complaining about it on a forum post. Even though I had missed the part where you mentioned ride-alongs, my point still stands.

15 minutes ago, Olivia Can said:

This comment is irrelevant as typically you would be able to have group chats over text, talk over other methods of communication, or radio over your phone

Au Contraire, Quite relevant. We're discussing VOIP and communications. You say you want group chats and the such, make a suggestion for it. Saying in the discord "Group Chats when" (not saying you specifically have) gets nobody anywhere.

17 minutes ago, Olivia Can said:

If you choose to stay in the clouds where TS is perfect for LEO's then go ahead.

I have not said it's perfect, I have stated that it is simply better than the suggested alternatives that you and many others have attempted to suggest. Alongside with JBacon straight up telling people that finding a replacement for TS has been tried, and was found to be lacking in every aspect.

18 minutes ago, Olivia Can said:

TS cannot be monitored like ECRP can

23 minutes ago, Olivia Can said:

I do not expect her to spend her time monitoring each TS channel of MD for mixing

Sure it can. You have access to recording software correct? Make a report similarly to how one would do on the forums with all the same information, except instead of a UNIX, give us a specific time and date. This is also one of the many reasons why ECRP Administration team members have TeamSpeak Staff roles.

34 minutes ago, Olivia Can said:

no MD at the time if I actually did it.

So you chose to, instead of harboring a positive RP environment like you claim to want to do, let rulebreaks occur willy-nilly without speaking out about them. 

20 minutes ago, Olivia Can said:

and can't call for gang back up


Unrelated. Please direct that sentiment to your nearest Crim v Cop debate located at the front, middle, and rear of each side of the aircraft.

21 minutes ago, Olivia Can said:

that we should give up TS and try for OTHER ways IN GAME that would solve the problem.

Yet you have offered no alternatives aside from "Switch freq" which, as I've explained before, is not only immpractical OOCly, but also ICly as well.

24 minutes ago, Olivia Can said:

However, if everyone else (illegals)

Also, you're reducing the entire playerbase to either being a cop, or being a criminal, which is not the case as I'm sure you know Do you know why DCC, LSC, MPT, Bayview, and Weazel don't need TS access to Teamspeak either and why their job can be done on a singular frequency utilizing the already existing VOIP system? It's because they 1) don't have 5+ situations ongoing at the same time that require coordination and callouts, and 2) have no real giant need to utilize radios. (DCC is an exception to 2)

If your argument is that Criminals do have situations where they need to coordinate themselves, Firstly, If you're planning something beforehand and your purpose isn't to simply be an 80 person clap crew, you are able to use a joint frequency in game. Explain to me in your criminal experience where you have had 4 different situations at any single time where you needed to have great coordination? I'll give you the answer as a criminal player myself who has been at it for over a year now, and the answer is, it doesn't happen. Criminal Situations are either everyone is in, in which case there's no need for multiple frequencies aside from if your freq gets comped, or the people who aren't participating in the situation, are off freq anyways and are doing their own thing.


If you want to be a contrarian, by all means, you do you. But don't complain about the smell of garbage when you haven't taken out the trash.

 

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7 hours ago, Cyrus Raven said:

With all due respect, they are baseless the moment you have neither any corroborating evidence or other people to backup what you're saying.

If you choose not to believe me, that is your prerogative. It does not mean that they are baseless as I do have the experience to back up what I'm saying. I have been in MD for almost a year in total and I highly doubt people are going to flock to the forums to be like "yeah I mix and metagame in TS all the time". Please be realistic.
 

7 hours ago, Homast said:

You also missed the part where I asked if you had told anyone of this? You claim to not want the mixing, but take no action asides from complaining about it on a forum post. Even though I had missed the part where you mentioned ride-alongs, my point still stands.

Yet again you missed what I had said "I even refused when I was told by SUPERIORS to get into TS. They'd reach out in fchat to get me on and I would say it was just used for mixing so I didn't want to. And yep, nothing changed."  Not only that, I am not complaining. I am stating the reasons as to why TS should not be used. If you choose to take it as complaining, that is on you.
 

7 hours ago, Homast said:

Yet you have offered no alternatives aside from "Switch freq" which, as I've explained before, is not only immpractical OOCly, but also ICly as well.

I have given multiple examples of ways it could be done differently and kept IC. If you choose to ignore them, like you have others parts to my suggestion. That is on you.
 

7 hours ago, Homast said:

So you chose to, instead of harboring a positive RP environment like you claim to want to do, let rulebreaks occur willy-nilly without speaking out about them. 

I do not see the point to reporting every little rule infraction. I do not believe that would promote a positive OOC or IC environment. Not just that, but staff can now give out "petty report" warnings whenever they want to, which I feel like would definitely apply to that case if I decided to pursue EVERY metagaming and mixing that happened while I was in TS.

Honestly I'm exhausted with replying back to each of the small little things you got upset about. Back to the topic as you have decided to nitpick my posts, instead of providing a productive conversation.

Other cities have been able to find out ways to do this ICly without using teamspeak. I love ECRP and it's community, which is why I stay playing on this server despite what positives and negatives might be there. I know we have a lot of creative people here and I don't see why we can't come up with something together that would lead to a better way to communicate ICly then using a third party software.

Let me state once more "What I am attempting to do is explain why, despite the problems with current voice and needing to /vr 1, that we should give up TS and try for OTHER ways IN GAME that would solve the problem. Such as coding that allows for each time N, M, or P is pressed /vr 1 is also pressed. Therefore there would be an auto reset on voice chat each time and no one would have to worry about typing /vr 1 again."

This suggestion would literally solve the initial reason this was posted, and also has been implemented on other servers in Rage, so I know it can be done.

Edited by Olivia Can
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39 minutes ago, Olivia Can said:

If you choose not to believe me, that is your prerogative. It does not mean that they are baseless as I do have the experience to back up what I'm saying. I have been in MD for almost a year in total and I highly doubt people are going to flock to the forums to be like "yeah I mix and metagame in TS all the time". Please be realistic.

Do you mind clarifying what your prescription is then? Are you trying to say that TS should be removed because of mixing and metagaming solely based on your experience?

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10 minutes ago, Cyrus Raven said:

Do you mind clarifying what your prescription is then? Are you trying to say that TS should be removed because of mixing and metagaming solely based on your experience?

I'm saying if I've had this experience, then others probably have too. I've heard the same sentiment exclaimed from others, but you're right, I do not record every little thing and keep every little thing on my computer, so I do not have that evidence. That does not make it any less true or any less of an issue.

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