Current Status on Bank Robberies.

[Jett_J]

I was watching some old ecrp bank heist videos and I really enjoyed seeing the bank robberies with hostages and negotiations. The videos I watched specifically had really good negotiations and I could tell that everyone was enjoying it.

Recently the meta seems to be get 10+ people in the bank, drain it within a few seconds, then everyone scrambles with BF400s. I completely understand why banks are done this way; hostage styled heists are much harder to lose the cops in. They require a much more thoughtout escape plan.

I think both crims and LEOs can agree that it isn't exactly enjoyable the way banks are being done right since there really is no reaction between the two except for a possible pursuit (but pursuits arent exactly a unique experience).

I'm curious to hear people's thoughts on how we could bring back the strong RP involved with doing bank heists and how to make it a fair experience for all.

 

[Aieos]

Can bring back the RP by staying long enough for cops to come and having a plan for negotiation instead of leaving after grabbing only some of the vaults cash.

[Ash]

People want the money and the chase more than the RP scenario. It just needs to be a mentality shift

[DoTo]

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree, we should keep in mind that this is something that requires a reasonable from both sides.

Yes, it is on the criminals to make a bank robbery interesting, to stay there, to negotiate or to take a hostage, but in my opinion, it is very much the duty of Law Enforcement to go forward with a high standard of roleplay in this case, negotiations should be realistic and they should also be fair, I dislike the approach to these situations that a few of my fellow LEOs take (for the record, this is not limited to a specific faction, I've seen this happen on all sides), shooting the suspect as soon as a hostage is released. Thankfully we have been seeing less of this lately. Not only is this not very fair for the other side, but it also often cuts roleplay short, there is a lot more routes to take and a lot more options and tactics that are available to a Law Enforcement Officer in this scenario.

Of course, negotiations are not always reasonable and terms cannot always be agreed to, which requires a mutual understanding of what reasonable terms to release a hostage are and what isn't. There is still a time and a place for a dangerous suspect to be taken out, but it should never be the first option we think about and rather a last resort if reasonable terms cannot be found.

Edited February 22, 2022 by DoTo

[Bala]

Not going to speak about what PD does, does not do nor speak for the rest of the faction in these situations, as I've been asked not to.
That being said, from a gameplay point of view, the bank robberies are unfortunately a railroad to nowhere.

A combination of criminals not having enough scripted support to do criminal activity, the reward of packed money from banks in terms of turf influence, the banks only having one entrance, the frequency of robberies of these locations, there only being four scripted locations for these things to take place and the change to the hostage rules lead to a shit-storm.

It's just my opinion, I genuinely believe that no one enjoys these bank robberies any-more and there isn't a combination of rules and regulations that can fix the mechanic.

I had asked the higher ups to consider removing the Bank NCZs in Paleto and more importantly LS Bank, to make things more interesting long term, but that was turned down because the standard of these situations are so low and argument provoking, which makes it feel like a vicious circle. In order for improvement, there needs to be change and people won't change by themselves.

Bank robberies need to be re-worked in my view. They need to be less frequent but not as necessarily a consequence to crims for them being less frequent, the bank have other reasons for people to go there (such as actual banking features, atm refill job working inside etc) so the intent of occupants inside is in doubt, the three other banks being added in with slight increases in payout to account for risk (Paleto/Legion/LS Bank), cameras that can be viewed inside the bank, different tools to add variety to breaking into the vault etc..

There is no variety for anyone involved, it's the same thing over and over and over. That is not just the biggest problem, that is the root cause of these issues.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Bala

[Jayyy]

2 hours ago, DrPathetic said:

People want the money and the chase more than the RP scenario. It just needs to be a mentality shift

Tell em again.

[XeV]

The main thing is repeated behavior being the issue. I have done MANY banks both hostage and full clears, used to ONLY do hostage banks back in Royals and it was fine most of the time, but it went from good to bad SO FAST. It became a 50/50 if cops would not just shoot you as soon as you left the bank and the hostage was somewhat cleared, sometimes cops get fed up with waiting and the demands shifting they just zerg rush in. Banks in my opinion are HEAVILY reliant on the police and of course Crims have to realize you get a choice. You cannot demand everything under the moon for an easy getaway and expect it to be fulfilled, Pick reasonable demands such as maybe 'No Spike Strips and a 3 second head start" You know you still have Air 1 above, but you still get that chance. But the main thing is what cops show up, After so many banks I can tell how it is gonna go based on who shows up due to repeated behavior with other banks. BUT I can confirm if you make THE MOST effort possible in the RP you have a WAY higher chance of getting what you want and it going fair for both sides.

As for "People want the money and the chase more than the RP" I'm guilty of it, I personally just enjoy the adrenaline rush and skill test from the chase and being rewarded for it. To make hostage banks more enjoyable I guess I would ask for LEO's to be more lenient and realize SOME are here to have fun regardless who "Wins" or "Loses", Walking out the bank and getting in a car to just get made into swiss cheese right away is meh. I would like it to be a test of ability and communication rather then just he's dead RP over.

 

EDIT - Also before with how getting a hostage worked it was practically IMPOSSIBLE to get a good hostage, but with the new rules expect to see more hostage banks in the future. As I am planning to do some in the near future just for the RP and a story line I am building.

Edited February 22, 2022 by undead_vex

[Ash]

1 hour ago, undead_vex said:

As for "People want the money and the chase more than the RP" I'm guilty of it, I personally just enjoy the adrenaline rush and skill test from the chase and being rewarded for it. To make hostage banks more enjoyable I guess I would ask for LEO's to be more lenient and realize SOME are here to have fun regardless who "Wins" or "Loses", Walking out the bank and getting in a car to just get made into swiss cheese right away is meh. I would like it to be a test of ability and communication rather then just he's dead RP over.

Just to clarify, this absolutely wasn't a dig of any kind. It's just true. Whatever the reasons are, monetary reward(vs risk also), turf stuff, or just the RP of hostage situations isn't enjoyable. At the end of the day people are electing to go fast and zoomy zoomy in these situations for a reason. Something needs changing or tweaking to enable more roleplay around them and I don't do them from either side to be able to comment much on how.

 

[XeV]

1 minute ago, DrPathetic said:

Just to clarify, this absolutely wasn't a dig of any kind. It's just true. Whatever the reasons are, monetary reward(vs risk also), turf stuff, or just the RP of hostage situations isn't enjoyable. At the end of the day people are electing to go fast and zoomy zoomy in these situations for a reason. Something needs changing or tweaking to enable more roleplay around them and I don't do them from either side to be able to comment much on how.

 

oh for sure, I did not take it as a "dig" or anything of the sort. The mentality right now is dog water in being why "RP" when you can just 25 friends and clean it in seconds and make EZ profit every time and get that turf up or get your connections stronger by bringing packed cash to an ally daily. Money>RP and that mentality is just bad overall, as bad as it may be sometimes, COPS deserve RP too just like everyone else and IDK how it happened maybe due to some bad apples but people just DO not like RPing with police like AT ALL. I swear one bad interaction and people just hate ALL cops. 

As for what people could tweak or change. the biggest issue is people do not wanna spend that time in jail or get them fine stacks, so a quick band aid solution would be to just reduce times and fines specifically for hostage bank robberies to encourage people to do them more over the other method that way people are more inclined to do it this way with the chance of it being successful and even if failed its not THAT severe. If you get caught doing a bank with a "full clean and dip" strategy face the normal times and fines.

[gmtavares]

I feel if there was a chance at failure, there would be better RP opportunities. Just make it so the lockpick doesn't always work or the drill sometimes doesn't breach through the vault. This brings this action with line with breaching houses or stealing cars.

This will give Law Enforcement more time to realize the situation is ongoing and allow for a shift in bank robbery strategies making the smash-and-grab with BF400s less prevalent.

[AnakinB]

I know me and my friends don't rob banks with hostages because the demands we give, the second the hostage is returned are just immediately voided, and shot upon, while it makes sense as the criminals don't have any leverage over the police, its just not fun in the end, at least let us have the chase and as you guys have shinobis, helicopters, As well as other cruisers its not like we are 100% going to lose you, we already are down in our chances you dont need to completely make it to where we cant get away, and if we do its because we bested you somewhere. I just think that shooting us the second we get in our car honestly isnt very good rp and while technically its an IC issue its also an OOC issue as shown here as people arent enjoying robbing banks so clearly something ooc has to be put into place such as a rule that states there has to be a chase until the criminals fire upon police officers or something of the sort.

[Aieos]

3 minutes ago, AnakinB said:

I know me and my friends don't rob banks with hostages because the demands we give, the second the hostage is returned are just immediately voided, and shot upon, while it makes sense as the criminals don't have any leverage over the police, its just not fun in the end, at least let us have the chase and as you guys have shinobis, helicopters, As well as other cruisers its not like we are 100% going to lose you, we already are down in our chances you dont need to completely make it to where we cant get away, and if we do its because we bested you somewhere. I just think that shooting us the second we get in our car honestly isnt very good rp and while technically its an IC issue its also an OOC issue as shown here as people arent enjoying robbing banks so clearly something ooc has to be put into place such as a rule that states there has to be a chase until the criminals fire upon police officers or something of the sort.

Idea: Have one person stay with the hostage and say you'll let the hostage go once they give free passage to your friends with the money. That way they don't open fire on you as soon as you give up your only leverage.

[AnakinB]

41 minutes ago, Aieos said:

Idea: Have one person stay with the hostage and say you'll let the hostage go once they give free passage to your friends with the money. That way they don't open fire on you as soon as you give up your only leverage.

While yeah that works we shouldn't be forced to let one of us get arrested, We should be able to do bank jobs without going to jail. Just honor the demands if its something such as free passage and no spikes or free passage with no helicopter, its not hard man. Until something is done about cops just spraying people down the second they get the hostage banks are going to stay the way they are and that's just the truth. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by AnakinB
Minor Spelling mistake

[Aieos]

2 minutes ago, AnakinB said:

While yeah that works we shouldn't be forced to let one of us get arrested, We should be able to do bank jobs without going to jail. Just honor the demands if its something such as free passage and no spikes or free passage with no helicopter, its not hard man. Until something is done about cops just spraying people down the second they get the hostage banks are going to stay the way they are and that's just the truth. 

then tell the cops you're leaving somebody in there with the hostage until you leave, then they'll surrender the hostage. but really the hostage is just alone and tied to a chair or something so they can't leave on their own. be creative.

[Jorge Compass]

Agree with anakin, every situation I've been in that requires negotiations has resulted in shots being fired as soon as the hostage has been handed over. There's no point risking your entire gang getting arrested in the bank by doing negotiations when you can all just scurry off on bikes have a very low chance of being caught. I feel like if demands such as allowing free passage was up kept during negotiations rather than being sprayed at then banks would become more interesting.

[AnakinB]

1 minute ago, Aieos said:

then tell the cops you're leaving somebody in there with the hostage until you leave, then they'll surrender the hostage. but really the hostage is just alone and tied to a chair or something so they can't leave on their own. be creative.

And then the cops say well we have to see the hostage, don't see the hostage, breach and shoot us while we leave. I don't know why you are pushing so hard to let the cops spray people down who are trying to give them RP but this is gonna be the last time I respond to you. The bank is one half of the roleplay, the other half is the 17 people chasing one car, You already have as many advantages as you could need to win, you don't need to make the chances of the criminals escaping 0. 

[Aieos]

55 minutes ago, AnakinB said:

I don't know why you are pushing so hard to let the cops spray people down who are trying to give them RP but this is gonna be the last time I respond to you.

I never said that I supported that way of thinking. Cops should make opening fire and injuring suspects an absolute last resort. Try to catch them without harming them and if they're putting lives at risk only then should force be used. 
But it's not up to me to enforce guidelines such as that, I'm not even a cop. Maybe some IC protests towards the government against the polices policy on use of deadly force could be done to help get them to change their violent ways.

[AnakinB]

8 minutes ago, Aieos said:

Maybe some IC protests towards the government against the polices policy on use of deadly force could be done to help get them to change their violent ways.

respectfully man, I do not think criminals protesting getting shot while robbing a bank is going to make police stop shooting us when we leave banks. 

10 minutes ago, Aieos said:

I never said that I supported that way of thinking. Cops should make opening fire and injuring suspects an absolute last resort. Try to catch them without harming them and if they're putting lives at risk only then should force be used. 

That's what we are saying opening fire and injuring suspects should be a LAST resort but with the current state of the police they are making it their FIRST response and not giving us any other RP after getting the hostage back, the way banks currently are is as follows: We take hostage, We go to the bank, we begin taking the money, police show up, negotiations begins, we agree on free passage, and no spikes, we return the hostage and begin leaving, police open fire and instantly injure/stall us. While its an IC issue its also an OOC issue as it is having a negative effect on the criminal side of the community, we aren't finding robbing banks enjoyable so we are doing it the way that we have found works, and is profitable. If the police continue to do these things to our side of the community, eventually the only RP police are going to have is writing tickets to people who are parked illegally, which im sure no one wants. 

[Aldarine]

While I wish I had more time to respond to this thread I don’t because I’m at work but I do want to chime in on this even just a bit.

I have and always will be a big advocate for pushing for more roleplay at scenes, especially ones that cross factions as I think these can create such enjoyable encounters. However, there is a very large and blatant thing that is somewhat preventing this from happening when it comes to banks and that one thing is reliance. Now let me explain…

The reliance on packed money is a huge contributing factor to behavior when robbing a bank. Banks are not only limited in number but they are also on a timer, the primary source of packed money and limited based on LEOs. While many may not see the large constraints these things pose, they are very real. That said, it is incredibly reasonable for those who are robbing the banks to immediately try to flee to keep their investment as the opportunity doesn’t come available as often as people would like. That said, more roleplay can always be had but with the immensely large LEO risk compared to the scarcity of the gained resource can you really blame the quick getaway?

[XeV]

5 hours ago, Aieos said:

Idea: Have one person stay with the hostage and say you'll let the hostage go once they give free passage to your friends with the money. That way they don't open fire on you as soon as you give up your only leverage.

I cannot find the post for the life of me, but someone complained about this exact scenario. The main complaint was banks are done the SAME way EVERY single time and cops were bored of it. It was either full clean with friends or Have a fall guy.

I hate doing this shit but, IRL if cops just gunned down the car those people are now just dead forever, but obviously in this game you can get absolutely riddled with bullets and have to still RP as your alive even though you have 36x gunshot wounds to the body. IMO cops abuse that to just stop the threat and now get MD to somehow magically RP treat that and transfer to DOC.

Just please cops stop shooting people AS SOON as the hostage is cleared, I honestly do not care if you did not listen to my demands and kept the spike strips and began chasing instantly, just please chase and maybe like 5-10mins /megaphone pull over or lethal force will be used, then shoot my tires or something and get me to stall. Just stop ending the RP in a blink of an eye as soon as the hostage is cleared.

[Dimja]

9 hours ago, Aieos said:

Idea: Have one person stay with the hostage and say you'll let the hostage go once they give free passage to your friends with the money. That way they don't open fire on you as soon as you give up your only leverage.

With all due respect Aieos, I am pretty sure you have never actually tried this idea. I have, many many times. The concept is simple and most people think it works out, but it wont with the current mindset. The majority of the police negotiators will tell you that they will shoot the people on the bike if not all of the hostage takers come out at the same time.

 

As Aldarine mentioned, we (criminals) face hours of prison for doing the daily bank robbery that we need to keep up our turfs. Hence the reason nowadays people chose the meta way, a quick grab and run with bf400’s. Countless criminals, including me, have tried to enhance the RP revolving bank robberies, but that 9 out of the 10 times, it will screw the criminal over.

Having that said, I know PD wants to RP and most of them dont play to win, but their approach needs to change if they want to actually see interesting roleplay scenarios during bankrobberies. Sniping people behind a hostage, shooting as soon as they hop on a bike or rejecting every realistic demand will bring the criminals to their last resort; a quick grab and run with their bf400.

There are countless reports and video’s were demands such as free passage, remove the spike strips, make xray land have been ignored.

 

 

Links to examples of current approach

 

 

The old approach of law enforcement: 

 

It is at the point now, where people try to prevent to roleplay with police during bank robberies and instead try be gone before they even interact with each other. This should not be dealt with ICLY, cause this is heavily influencing the level of roleplay that could have be there.  An example, just like the player theft rule was an OOC measure and not something dealt ICLY with by law enforcement cause roleplay was heavily being crippled by the current environment, this should be taken a look at aswell.

 

Some updates to the whole system of the bank robberies as Bala suggested, might be the idealistic solution.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Dimja

[Jett_J]

1 hour ago, Dimja said:

With all due respect Aieos, I am pretty sure you have never actually tried this idea. I have, many many times. The concept is simple and most people think it works out, but it wont with the current mindset. The majority of the police negotiators will tell you that they will shoot the people on the bike if not all of the hostage takers come out at the same time.

 

As Aldarine mentioned, we (criminals) face hours of prison for doing the daily bank robbery that we need to keep up our turfs. Hence the reason nowadays people chose the meta way, a quick grab and run with bf400’s. Countless criminals, including me, have tried to enhance the RP revolving bank robberies, but that 9 out of the 10 times, it will screw the criminal over.

Having that said, I know PD wants to RP and most of them dont play to win, but their approach needs to change if they want to actually see interesting roleplay scenarios during bankrobberies. Sniping people behind a hostage, shooting as soon as they hop on a bike or rejecting every realistic demand will bring the criminals to their last resort; a quick grab and run with their bf400.

There are countless reports and video’s were demands such as free passage, remove the spike strips, make xray land have been ignored.

 

 

Links to examples of current approach

 

 

The old approach of law enforcement: 

 

It is at the point now, where people try to prevent to roleplay with police during bank robberies and instead try be gone before they even interact with each other.

Yea those videos hurt to watch.

That first video is insane how there was a kamacho attempting to stall the car first, then spikes, and then a personal supercar chasing you with a helicopter in the air. That is quite literally a 0% success rate.

I hope PD has stopped using personal cars because that is rediciulous. Pulling out a T20 for every bank robbery that involves a car is incredibily BS. 

Coming from a LEO, I think shooting/ramming or doing anything else that makes it impossible for the robbers to be able to even drive off should just be outlawed ESPECIALLY if the individuals havent injured anybody.

Personally i'm completely fine with robbers "winning" more if that means having a better experience overall. I gain nor lose anything regardless of the outcome and I hope all the other LEOs can agree with that. 

 

Another thing:

Using the blue blockades to completely block the road also should not be allowed for situations like bank robberies because they're pretty buggy and everyone knows that. Yes they can break, but you have to be traveling very very slow in order for the blockade to not act like a brick wall.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Jett_J

[Jett_J]

54 minutes ago, Kieran Horn said:

I have been on the game maybe once or twice since banks have becoming even harder with camping and such. It's just not fun, especially when gangs rely on the packed cash, and the win mentality is just ridiculous at times. 

I haven't seen any bank camping at all at least on SD's side unless we suspicion there will be a robbery.

And if someone is a camping a bank, there a methods to get them away from the bank.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Jett_J

[xMysticZx]

I have to agree on what’s being said In the fact that both parties crim and cops mentalities need to change when it comes to banks. Crime only think ‘ money moeny money, escape escape escape ‘ and nothing more and cops think ‘ shoot shoot shoot, cuff cuff cuff ‘ I feel like this could change because I agree I don’t even enjoy doing banks recently, you either end up going in and getting out of there within 5 short mins with all the money and escaping without even seeing and cops, or you get sprayed down on sight by police, get pitted crash / stall. I feel like the cops mentality also needs to change especially when it comes to hostages, I feel like most cops completely disregard the fact that we have a innocent civilians life or lives at stake and their main priority is getting us in cuffs, not giving us the proper upper hand in the situation that hostages are ment to deliver. There has been times we’ve done banks with hostages for the RP, and to do them differently, but we always find we have to leave one or multiple people inside the bank to get caught, we’ve tried bringing the hostage with us in a vehicle holding the last people from the bank, they follow and pit even though we have a gun to the hostages head in the car. 

I and many crims find that cops definitely have a ‘ play to win ‘ mentality when it comes to banks even if we have hostages, and we feel like this ruins the sense of wanting to do the proper full RP when it comes to banks as we know if we stop and slow things down for the RP, we get steam rolled by hero cops or so on and so forth. We do now just take it the easy and quick way for banks so we don’t end up in prison for hours on end over a few 10k packed cash afterwards.

but in my opinion both crims and cops mentality needs to change for banks. 

[XeV]

Me and @AnakinB just tested a hostage bank ICly and it went 100% perfect neither me nor Anakin are mad at all everything was done fine, sadly not a fan of the 4hours in jail I wish that could be worked on as now I am in jail for my entire playtime for the day.  But demands were respected (No Spikes, Free Passage) and we just could not evade them, IM ALSO REALLY HAPPY the amount of time they took before shooting at us or our tires. All in all if ALL banks could go like this I would enjoy doing them for sure. This bank was done with 0 planning as we wanted to get it done ASAP and essentially test the policee on how they would react. So future banks we will plan out and make more fun for everyone.