New Rule Change Discussion

[IAmTurtle]

This is just a forum to put thoughts based on the new rule changes that where made here.  

 

Please keep it civil and on topic.

Edited November 16, 2021 by IAmTurtle

[Jleoni]

+ on robbery rules
+ on DM rule (who knows how this will play out though)
More clarity is needed on building rules; why not just OOC limits based on property size (1g house = x, 2g = y, small property = z, etc.)
 

[Osborn]

41 minutes ago, Jleoni said:

More clarity is needed on building rules; why not just OOC limits based on property size (1g house = x, 2g = y, small property = z, etc.)
 

Hey, what clarity do you seek? The announcement aims to address the way players build, not the amount of furniture that is used. 

Edit: As for drug tables, I don't think it's reasonable to set a script limitation, instead, we'd rather ask that players make use of the space that is given to them, and to not utilize the furniture system to create unrealistic builds in order to maximize space. 

 

[Bala]

Let me start by saying that I applaud the staff team for taking steps to combat some of the server's problems. It's a thankless task because if you do your job correctly, you are just doing your job and if you get it wrong, you're fucking things up. There is a tendency for players here to look past changes like this and look for script updates or updates that personally benefit them. Not a lot of people will say this, but thank you.

That being said, I'd like to discuss some of the changes in a little more depth.

The line that I instantly focused on was 'It's very important that we as a community do not take this as an opportunity to go back to the past.' because as I alluded to in my art of gang warfare thread, I still don't feel like the staff team understands the issue here. The restrictions on violence have negatively impacted the criminal side of things, as much as apartment drug labs and lack of development updates have.

I have no desire to see clap crews roaming the server again, shooting at anything that moves. At the same time though, the criminal side of things, update or no update, is not going to improve until the staff team understands that violent actions aren't always negative actions. The problem was never the violence itself, it was those players that only wanted the violence and had little time for anything else.

The default response to every issue we've had since the removal of the original drug labs has been the creation of more and more rules. This has limited and limited the options open to our criminal role-players, which has also in turn negatively impacted our law enforcement factions, resulting in the server feeling increasingly stale. The heavy burden has in part been created by staff, by adding so many circumstances where someone might have broken a rule. This gives the losing party more and more cover to hide behind and increases trepidation amongst criminals who have to instigate situations to create criminal roleplay.

Seeing that sentence was a little triggering for me because with respect to all the good developments we've made since 2019, there is a lot to be said for Eclipse in 2019. Eclipse in 2019 with the extension Coronavirus gave us is the reason why we're still able to ride this wave in 2021.

We've spent so much time over the past 18 months trying to turn Eclipse into something it's not and we're currently stuck in limbo, both in development terms and roleplay terms. We don't have the player-base to be one of those super serious roleplay servers where people talk to each other for 3-4 hours and only pull a gun on special occasions.

That is not our player-base and it's ignoring the player-base that is ruining things. Eclipse works when it's the middle ground server. One where a new player can pick it up quickly and an experienced player still gets enough juice to tidy them over. One where you can get good roleplay situations in but still has enough action to keep you wanting more.

With regards to violence, whether you want to call this California, Los Santos or just GTA, bad shit happens all the time. This is not SimNation. If the role-play supports fucking someone up, why shouldn't they be fucked up? There is nothing like the threat of violence to keep people in line. If you are living the gang life, death could come at any time. We're getting to the point where we don't have criminals here any more, we have civilians that just don't really obey the law. 

I'm tired of banging the same drums, on the off-chance that the people that can make the changes listen. I'm tired of losing friends and some of those good quality veteran role-players from the PD because they can no longer find the fun in it. I'm tired of constantly trying to convince people that things will get better and I'm tired of spinning my wheels trying to convince myself that any of my efforts actually count for anything.

The player base is tired and I know for a fact half the staff team are jaded. That's why the LOAs come and the amount of time that gets spent in game drops off. We're pinning all our hopes for a change in fortunes solely on NBDY and Osvaldon delivering the white whale criminal update but is that fair? They're obviously really busy people with a number of responsibilities besides scripting in Eclipse alone, plus the pair of them have real lives. Could they bring in more people? Sure, but then that's an issue of compatibility and trust and time even to get them the right level of access. They have hundreds and hundreds of people waiting on them to deliver, that's a massive burden to put on people's shoulders. It's not all on them to bail us out.

It's 6am for me and I've spent the past hour writing all this out. So, there's going to be no more bala suggestion threads or in-depth discussion topics after this gets posted.

My final offer to help is that I will gladly meet with the entire staff team or whoever needs to hear this and explain to them where we're going wrong and what we can do to fix them. I'm not a staff member so people feel more comfortable telling me shit. I've been here a long time and I stick my neck out for people so they feel more comfortable telling me shit. I voice my opinions and I've got a lot of good ideas apparently so people tell me shit. If you're in the staff team and want to listen then my DMs are open. 

Now i'm going to sleep, good night x.

[alexalex303]

Quote

We've decided to eliminate petty jail time charges where the transport to jail would take longer than your sentence. 

I'd like to seek clarification on the exact issue that needed tackling here. I feel that on a roleplaying server, the roleplay is the goal and as long as the individuals are being provided with sufficient roleplay, the length of the sentence is not relevant in an issue of quality or enjoyment. In short, why is that an issue (transport being longer than the sentence)?

[Ultra3D]

1 minute ago, alexalex303 said:

I'd like to seek clarification on the exact issue that needed tackling here. I feel that on a roleplaying server, the roleplay is the goal and as long as the individuals are being provided with sufficient roleplay, the length of the sentence is not relevant in an issue of quality or enjoyment. In short, why is that an issue (transport being longer than the sentence)?

I personally think to fix this add a system to allowed time serverd, basically if you are charged for 3 hours but you spend 1 hour in a pending state you only go to DOC for 2 hours

[Ultra3D]

I dont know if it can be answered here but I have questions that I talked with a staff about which lead to a brick wall. I had my lab marked as "NRP" a few weeks back and I spend about 2 hours with staff getting it to a point where it was considered realistic and that it followed all the rules. Now my build is considered NRP not because it looks unrealistic but because the wording in the rule is very vague. "a build with the intention of having a ridiculous number of tables" How many tables is a "ridiculous number"? I am willing to send screen shots of my final build that was approved a few weeks back that was 90% free space that was not used for cooking. I just need clarification because I think the wording is way to vague.

Edit: Another issue I have is the argument "Use the space provided" The issue is not the space, its the props in the way we cant move. IF each building was just walls/floor/roof and if we wanted a bed etc we would place them our self. This would make alot more sense and allow more people to stop cooking in 500k apartments and set up in 1gs. I personally think this way would allows for more realistic labs and for more customization on the civilian side of things.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Ultra3D

[jason]

It's not about a specific number, it's about turning an entire luxury apartment into a druglab. You shouldn't be raising the entire floor to a point where it's clipping through things solely for the purpose of building a lab. Due to players abusing this on countless occasions, we've had to make this blanket change until a better solution can be reached.

[Krish Roshan]

1 hour ago, jason said:

It's not about a specific number, it's about turning an entire luxury apartment into a druglab. You shouldn't be raising the entire floor to a point where it's clipping through things solely for the purpose of building a lab. Due to players abusing this on countless occasions, we've had to make this blanket change until a better solution can be reached.

so would adding proper support items like posts be allowed as realistically if i wanted it to be a drug lab I would have taken out all the unwanted things in the apartment such as the couch tv and such but its not scriptly possible or the floor rising thing would never even be a thing to start off with.

I would also like to ask further clarification amongst the Deathmatching rule, are we moving towards an eclipse community eradicating demands as a form of DM rights? If so i completely support it if done right. Currently we need more situational based examples to be given, in the examples given no one has talked about seeing players in a Lab/Chop if staff want to give a few examples in circumstances that several gangs go through on a day to day basis possibly using past reports as teachable moments as I see in every DM report that is accepted DEMANDS ARE NOT DM RIGHTS then use circumstantial examples.

 

[Skengprostie]

I think the rule changes are all very good decisions and has been explained very well to how and why it made sense to change to rules the way they did. 

This server continuously gets better as changes like this one and changes IC happen making for better RP. however the only thing I still disagree with is the severity of the fines that come with the crimes because yes it is not jailtime but taking allot of someone's money acts the same way because for some people (especially criminals who are mostly the ones getting these fines) it takes them allot of time to get that money and for me was very demotivating to engage in RP scenarios not because of the jailtime but due to the fines. For example someone may spend a while fishing at the pier, a very common way to make money, then after done dropping of their fish at the sell point forget there's a speeding camera this once and get fined all the money they've just made fishing at the pier, they have now just completely lost their hard works money fishing due to one very small mistake.

Another example would be when IC I was being mean to the officer arresting me which made him decide to add allot of charges to try and get the fine as high as possible, I then had 34k in fines (although seen allot worse) and would mean after id done finishing the sentence I would either have to and work for a long time to make the money back or then engage in/or cause poor RP with lack of equipment. In my opinion the problem there wasn't the officer it was the fact that base pay per hour on most government jobs is 5k and that meant it would take 7 hrs to make back the money (obviously I wouldn't be able to get a job like that if I had just got out of DOC so could possibly be harder unless I had a full on drug lab which not many do)

This also leads back to criminals having to spend more money anyway (on guns and other supplies) to have a chance to fight against SD or LSPD as they are government funded. I Personally would like a server where it's more enticing to become a criminal rather than people joining SD and shitting on all the poor player with their free shotguns and .50s depending on their rank.

Again this is my opinion and am open to see anyone else opinion on mine weather it be good or bad .

[Destuin]

4 hours ago, Krish Roshan said:

I would also like to ask further clarification amongst the Deathmatching rule, are we moving towards an eclipse community eradicating demands as a form of DM rights? If so i completely support it if done right. Currently we need more situational based examples to be given, in the examples given no one has talked about seeing players in a Lab/Chop if staff want to give a few examples in circumstances that several gangs go through on a day to day basis possibly using past reports as teachable moments as I see in every DM report that is accepted DEMANDS ARE NOT DM RIGHTS then use circumstantial examples.

 

Couldn't agree more with this. I am struggling to understand how you might initiate on people you see in a lab or chop, if demands no longer give you the right to shoot? They can just run to there vehicle engine on and get away every time? 

[Dimja]

8 hours ago, Destuin said:

Couldn't agree more with this. I am struggling to understand how you might initiate on people you see in a lab or chop, if demands no longer give you the right to shoot? They can just run to there vehicle engine on and get away every time? 

I assume if you give demands with a gun, that would be fear RP then. However, if he breaks this fear rp and fails to comply to your ‘demands’ you have to let him step in and drive away as shooting will be considered DM then. As far as I understand the rule, correct me if wrong.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Dimja

[Bala]

13 hours ago, Dimja said:

I assume if you give demands with a gun, that would be fear RP then. However, if he breaks this fear rp and fails to comply to your ‘demands’ you have to let him step in and drive away as shooting will be considered DM then. As far as I understand the rule, correct me if wrong.

If that’s the case, then that is silly. If you are aiming a gun at him and he still decides to ignore you doing what you want them to, what are you meant to do, put it away or give the gun to them instead? 

The best rules stem from common sense, they are the easiest to follow. 

[Phil McGee]

On 11/16/2021 at 11:44 PM, Dimja said:

I assume if you give demands with a gun, that would be fear RP then. However, if he breaks this fear rp and fails to comply to your ‘demands’ you have to let him step in and drive away as shooting will be considered DM then. As far as I understand the rule, correct me if wrong.

Thats the way im understanding it, the way its worded the person can get back in their car and drive off? Surely it cant be though as that makes no sense. 

[alexalex303]

2 hours ago, Phil McGee said:

Thats the way im understanding it, the way its worded the person can get back in their car and drive off? Surely it cant be though as that makes no sense. 

I don't want to speak for the staff team, but the logic seems to be that they want to avoid the "hands" and shoot mentality. If you had more of a reason to hold him up prior, shooting him could be justified, but if all he did was disregard your demands, it wouldn't be alright to shoot, possibly.

[Krish Roshan]

7 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

I don't want to speak for the staff team, but the logic seems to be that they want to avoid the "hands" and shoot mentality. If you had more of a reason to hold him up prior, shooting him could be justified, but if all he did was disregard your demands, it wouldn't be alright to shoot, possibly.

Doesnt make sense practically maybe for shootouts on the street but what about labs and chops

 

[Phil McGee]

20 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

I don't want to speak for the staff team, but the logic seems to be that they want to avoid the "hands" and shoot mentality. If you had more of a reason to hold him up prior, shooting him could be justified, but if all he did was disregard your demands, it wouldn't be alright to shoot, possibly.

The problem with rules being ambiguous is they are interpreted ad-hoc by certain admins. It's not a fair system unfortunately. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Phil McGee

[Bala]

10 hours ago, Phil McGee said:

The problem with rules being ambiguous is they are interpreted ad-hoc by certain admins. It's not a fair system unfortunately. 

I think to a point, it becomes difficult to be consistent when you have so much ambiguity in your rules. Every gameplay punishment I've ever had that has been issued by a moderator, has been successfully appealed. 

Rules are as ideally black and white as possible and also rely on common sense.

• If you have someone at gun point and you issue demands, the threat of death is meant to get that person to do what you want them to do. If you can't follow through on the threat, what would be the point of making the threat in the first place?
• The whole thing of someone not being under Fear RP when a car engine is running.. unless you are Han Solo in the Millennium Falcon, that car is going to take time to get away and it's a lot quicker to shoot someone than for them to drive away. The engine being on is to me irrelevant. It's about distance.

Yes, you want to value roleplay over the shooting but at the same time, we've created barriers for victims to hide behind also. It's like well I know you can't put me under fear RP because my engine is on and I'm driving away. What would be the reason to feel any fear in that situation then? Time limits on when you can kill someone shouldn't matter either. If you've done something in the first place that means I could kill you with a window, there shouldn't be an expiration date.

If you want to stop deathmatching, then rules ain't the answer. Stopping the boredom is. People end up shooting because there is nothing else going.

If you are in a gang, you're choosing to involve yourself in that world. The chances of getting shot at and killed should increase. Giving people invisible rule forcefields to hide behind just leads to more punishments and less players.

[Phil McGee]

8 hours ago, Bala said:

Every gameplay punishment I've ever had that has been issued by a moderator, has been successfully appealed. 

This is a problem, either the moderator s  interpretation of the rules is wrong or just a lack of education and making up rules as they go along. Think of all the wasted resources in issuing the punishment s then appealing ,time, effort. 

 

For example I've had RP voided due to using "anim slap" to start an altercation instead of throwing a punch. The rp ended in a knife fight in an underground car park where the person was downed. Everyone was happy enough with the outcome, including the downed party, but the moderator( who wasn't involved and no report made) steps in and doesn't know if DM happened due to using "anim slap" and needed to consult with a senior moderator to see if punishment should be issued. When I asked why void it if unsure about if a rule break happend to which the response was " because I said its voided" All 6 people involved went offline within 1 minute due to frustration and not wanting to play anymore. 

 

 

[Bala]

I'm not being critical of the capabilities of any of staff team on an individual basis, but I think to a certain extent the ambiguity in the rules makes their job almost impossible to do without making at least one or two mistakes. Those mistakes can then directly effect whether or not someone can even play here. The distinction between someone being staff and not is that they are chosen by other staff members and trusted with the responsibility. There are quite likely some non-staff players that know the rules better than some of the staff but they are not selected to make those decisions.

Grey areas lead to interpretation and inconsistency. It makes it harder to punish and harder to follow.

[GR_Seb]

About the building rule, I am assuming people can easily add a lab in their garage if this ever gets enabled? 

[Krish Roshan]

@Papadakis Based on the perception of house labs I believe they  are steering towards removing them or atleast adding more player to player interaction when it comes to selling or  manufacturing drug and even possibly bringing back how labs initially used to work having supplies drop and cooking from  labs itself.

[Jayyy]

On 11/17/2021 at 1:15 PM, Bala said:

If that’s the case, then that is silly. If you are aiming a gun at him and he still decides to ignore you doing what you want them to, what are you meant to do, put it away or give the gun to them instead?

In my understanding, if someone is not abiding by fearRP and if it makes RP sense you can still shoot as they are not complying with demands as long as explained in the fearRP report?
In the rules it states "Prior interaction should include escalation such as a robbery or a report to the police." So in my opinion you have attempted to rob someone who has not complied with demands (your motive isn't to kill this person just to gain items or money). It would make no RP sense to let them run away if RPly you are a big time criminal.
You cant stop the RP because someone broke the rules, so with the current examples I personally would continue with my RP until I make the report. - In short, I agree further clarification is needed.

[jason]

As this discussion has long since been concluded, it will now be locked & archived.

Thank you to all of those who participated and provided feedback within this discussion.