Rulebreaks and RP

[Ultra3D]

Backstory -

So after recent events I have been thinking about how rules breaks are handled on this server/community vs many other community I have been apart of. About 2 months ago I was banned for NRP 6. I have been apart of this server for nearly two years at this point. About a week before my ban I had only ever received 4 punishments. All of these were within the first 3-4 months of my joining the server. This came from negligence of knowing the rules and general mistakes. After my NRP 4 I took time to thoroughly read through the rules to fully understand them. Along side this I frequently watched player reports to see the outcomes to get that little extra understanding of the rules. This lead my to not receiving any punishments for over a year. However, within a 5 day period I was reported for two separate situations that were accepted. I have come to terms with them and I'm not using this to say they were wrong. After those two rule breaks being put onto my record I was immediately banned. After speaking with staff outside/inside the ban appeal, arguing that I feel being banned for NRP 6 with my last punishment being well over a year ago made no sense. But after trying I was denied and spent over a month trying to get back onto the server. This lead to me being removed from PD along with stopping a lot of things I had planned with my two active characters. Since being unbanned I have been able to join a few groups and start RPing on my criminal character again while working with Salvation and now Russians. Coming up I hope to be able to reapply for PD and continue working on that character aswell.

Discussion section -

The topic I wanted to have imput on and just a general dialog is how this server treats rulebreaks and punishments. Currently, if you receive any punishment. agreeing with it or not, stays on your record (Admin Logs) forever. They do not degrade/go away no matter the time. The only way of getting a punishment removed is if the admin who punished you or someone higher than them feels it was an incorrect punishment. This scenario almost never happen with the common one being you just having to suck it up and hopefully learn from the situation. From my personal experience this is the only server I have ever seen handled punishments in this way. I personally agree people should be punished if they break rules but in situation where someone makes mistakes throughout their time on the server can still lead to being banned no matter how much or how little they have contributed to the server.

Not only do I personally feel that a system where punishment degrade over time or where if you do become banned its a timed ban for 7days etc,, I feel that when people get into a situation like me where they are on DM 1, NRP 5 or recently unbanned it not only affects their RP but it affects the people they are around and how they continue on the server. What I mean by this is when people get their first punishment they will probably learn from it but still continue with their RP like nothing really happened. However, when someone gets to the stage like I mentioned above they more than likely get into a NO RP mindset/scared mindset. People will actively avoid situation where they feel someone may report. They might become more aggressive towards people who break rules against this or they may just stop playing all together being scared that they may be banned. From my personal experience the week before I was banned I got very angry at the fact I might be banned after nearly two years of playing. I got overly annoyed when someone broke any kind of rule near my and basically stopped all my rp/progression on my character I was playing at the time. Since coming back I have wanted to report every thing I felt was a rule break but have stopped my self almost every time by either taking a break or speaking with the person I'm considering reporting. This mindset comes from being a person recently unbanned and being angry at seeing people breaking rules.

This leads me to my final topic I want to touch on and start a discussion on. Currently people report for almost everything. This had lead to a situation where one person/group reports another person/group and the reported people get annoyed and try to find a reason to report the other person/group. This turns into a large scale report mentality that ruins RP situation. I have seen other and have myself been mid RP and stopped to go into OOC and ask can I do this, is this allowed, why is ____ happening. This alone slows down RP and the natural flow of things but is almost necessary to prevent being reported.

Final thoughts -

I hope we can comment our opinions in a way that can carry a conversation to either find a possible solution or just discuss thoughts on how we can improve the things I mentioned. I would like to add/link another person who has voiced their opinion/fix to this solution @Bala inside their post

Introduce Expiry Period for Rule Break Punishments.

As it currently stands, a player's account record has no fixed date and if you fall foul of the rules enough times, eventually you will find yourself being banned. Nowhere on the server is it more likely that you will find yourself on the wrong end of a game-play punishment than by playing as a criminal. More conflicts, more means to cause damage and increasingly high stakes and a win-at-all costs mentality that is very much a part of the criminal DNA mean that punishments for a lot of people are inevitable. 

With no expiry date on those punishments, the likelihood of a severe punishment such as a ban is higher. Pretty soon, playing as a criminal becomes a stressful OOC experience. If I get you into trouble, you're going to take that personally. Your friends are going to back you, my friends are going to back me. They will report each other and so on and so on. We've all seen this in the report sections.

Introduce a system where different rule breaks i.e. deathmatching, non-roleplay, metagaming have different expiry dates. Basically, that they would no longer be considered active punishments after a certain period. Currently, if you receive two deathmatch punishments, that leads to a ban and it's permanent, unless appealed. There is currently no fixed period where that first ban doesn't count towards two bans. So, for example, if I got a DM punishment in November 2020 and I got a DM punishment today, I'd be banned.

In normal circumstances, that's a deterrent for not re-offending but that's failing to take into consideration a number of factors which can increase the likelihood of that second punishment. These can be things like getting into a new faction war, getting into an argument with someone, reporting someone first etc. The sad reality is that, from the criminal factions I've spoken to, they find themselves watering down what they do because they don't want to get banned and as a result, the server become less entertaining to play.

Less impactful punishments would have a shorter expiry period than the more serious ones, but they would be fixed. 
For example, If deathmatch punishment lasted for say six months, non-roleplay punishments might last for four months.

It's still taking punishments serious enough that they retain their value but it's also easing that feeling of a piano hovering over your head. 
The current system is too rigid and it is a genuine concern for players on the server, especially criminals.

"

[jason]

We don't introduce a blanket expiration date for punishments for a good reason. It's been discussed multiple times and is unlikely to change in the near future.* We do, however, deviate from standard punishment guidelines regularly for players with long gaps between punishments. Someone who's committed DM 2 with their DM 1 being well over a year old may get a long admin jail instead of a permanent ban in some cases depending on the severity of the situation and whether or not they were actively playing during that gap between punishments.

Having it on a case by case basis allows us to more accurately determine whether or not that person should be receiving a permanent ban vs a lengthy admin jail. If we apply a blanket change such as this, it allows a lot more rulebreakers to slip through the cracks and have the chance to commit additional rulebreaks where they otherwise would've been in the appeal process.

Overall this change has good intentions that are genuinely valid concerns, but we already do something similar on a more accurate and lowkey basis.

* This is my own opinion as to whether or not it will change in the near future, I'm not speaking on behalf of the staff team.

[Ultra3D]

This is all coming from personal experiences. I have been apart of and staffed on other servers/games. All of them do the system that I mentioned where punishments stay for logging reasons but the actual negative from them degrade and unless someone is cheating/DSO/other major rulebreak the punishment is never permanent aka time based bans. I have never seen servers that do punishments this way have issues with rule breakers. Also when it comes to what you mentioned about a lowkey way yall determine if a person should receiving a permanent ban or a lengthy admin jail is not done enough. This may be a bias opinion but for me personally I received my NRP 4 on 11/Jun/20 07:45 PM and received my NRP 5/6 (Happened in the span of a week) on 21/Aug/21 & 26/Aug/21 07:04. This is 436 days between rulebreaks .I was not given such benefit and was banned for a month+. This situation has affected me before/after this ban. If I receive any more punishments any time soon I will be immediately re banned. More and more recently I need to ask in ooc if something is right and Ok and sometimes need to /report 1 where 90% of the time I get no response so I just stop RP.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Ultra3D

[Bala]

I don’t normally find myself agreeing with @Ultra3D but since he linked a godly post, I don’t really have any choice.

I have been on a final warning for OOC toxicity in public spaces for two years. That was my last punishment. That being said, if anyone in staff decides that I’ve violated that, then I’m gone, even after two years of behaving myself and being a thoroughly decent chap.

Yes rule breaks are serious, but having an expiration date on the gameplay punishments means that those that have messed up in the past and aren’t fucking up anymore have at least some piece of mind that they’ll get clear of a mistake.

It can be really easy to forget for Staff what it’s like to be on the business end of a server punishment. People go beyond not trying to break rules and they become fearful to do anything outside the same old safe roleplay for fear of the ban.

Be firm, sure. But, this system is rigged for people in certain parts of the server i.e. to inevitably fail.

[Destuin]

Agree with this, and would also like to add that it seems silly to me that we don't offer temporary bans. Every ban is perm one. Why not make bans for accumulating punishments have certain fixed lengths? Like a 1 month ban or 3 month etc.

[jason]

We don't add temporary bans because you don't have to actually serve any punishment by getting one. You just don't play or have to explain/justify your coming back. That's why we use ajails as well, you're forced to actually endure a punishment rather than just taking a break and going to a different game.

[Ultra3D]

9 minutes ago, jason said:

We don't add temporary bans because you don't have to actually serve any punishment by getting one. You just don't play or have to explain/justify your coming back. That's why we use ajails as well, you're forced to actually endure a punishment rather than just taking a break and going to a different game.

I mean like I said I don't see a benefit of doing it that way, getting a 30 day ban and being banned for perm but unbanned after 30 days is no difference

[jason]

There's a massive difference. Appealing has you explain yourself and what you did wrong, why it's wrong, and how you'll avoid doing so in the future. It allows us to determine whether or not someone's ready to come back and has demonstrated that they at least understand what they did wrong.

[Ultra3D]

1 minute ago, jason said:

There's a massive difference. Appealing has you explain yourself and what you did wrong, why it's wrong, and how you'll avoid doing so in the future. It allows us to determine whether or not someone's ready to come back and has demonstrated that they at least understand what they did wrong.

Ok well even if you kept the same appeals system where you need to appeal to be unbanned, why not pair it with a degrading punishment thing so its a mix and a middle ground.

[Valor]

As someone who has not received an admin punishment in over 3 years, I am perfectly okay with my logs staying there, because I trust the staff team to take that into account if I were to make another mistake. 

My main concern with adding an expiration period to admin logs, is that people may use this to their advantage, players may think "Oh well my DM just expired, so im okay if I DM this guy."

Permanent bans that allow appeals after 30 days give people the chance to truly think about what they've done, and if they have to work hard to come back, they're less likely to repeat an offense.

As much as I would love to see my admin punishments removed so that my log is clean, I completely understand why they are not.

[Frezas]

I have one Metagaming punishment which happened 2 years ago, I am more than afraid to invest time into my character, and it's career in PD, because I feel that one mistake or power hungry person can make my 3 years of playing disappear and waiting for ban appeal 6 months for admins to even consider unbanning me is not realistic at all. I believe it should be something like degrading of punishment in server as this would bring back our player base a little more (Cause don't lie to ourselves it's smaller than it was last year). Likewise, I have seen many players I have played before with getting banned for rule breaks where others didn't, and this makes me question if I am not going to be another one. There should be a strategy from administration, as now there is only fear among some players to pursue role-play.

I had one incident where one player wrote PM to me asking if he's going to get punished and was stressing out as he told someone to /o save POV, he was literally so stressed that he's going to be punished even tho he was right in that situation as he got DM'ed, but this shows the fact that administration is feared for their bannhammer rather than respected for good choices. And I know I am going to get those talks that I am disrespecting administration, but I am not, I am senior marketing manager in real life and I know how administration, product (at this point server) need to promote its self for their clients, who are at the moment afraid that they are going to lose their role-play and everything they played for. Plus further as we go gang activity started decreasing as being gang member ban chance is higher than being a police officer for the same rule break. I know those people who come to pier start shooting everyone then writes ''FUCK EC'' and makes a video praising themselves on YouTube, these are people we don't need. But there are people (experienced) who made a few NON-RP mistakes, got reported and got banned, but how did they make it that far ? They create RP even with NON-RP side, most of their RP was good, and they were part of player base. 

Sorry for making this, so long and some sides to be off this topic, but I needed to address these issues too. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Frezas

[Ultra3D]

I want to add this an an example to my situation that's continuing to worsen.

Reference (THIS IS NOT MENT TO THROW SHADE AT THE STAFF, JUST TO GIVE AN EXAMPLE)

In this report the reporting party claimed I killed them over a ticket and provided a very clipped video with 0 context. I then provided 3 days worth of information that lead to the final even of me killing them after they pulled me over while armed. I was then punished because it did not happen in one day. This not only continues to worsen my record but now it just tells me that if im fucked with by the same person day after day it does not matter because it all needs to be within the same day. Like at this point I dont know. Its either im scared to do anything so I dont get banned or I hold back while days of build up happen, Just to be punished anyways. So i"m personally just going to not put myself into any situation or just let people do shit ic because I'm done getting punished for trying to rp.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Ultra3D

[jason]

On 10/27/2021 at 2:55 AM, jason said:

We do, however, deviate from standard punishment guidelines regularly for players with long gaps between punishments.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, though. You still don't have DM 1 or DM 2, it's just between a DM 1 and a "spoken to" because neither of those fit the scenario. It's basically saying that while the RP was good and sufficient, it still technically breaches our current rules. Due to this situation, I will be bringing up the possibility of changing/tweaking this rule to allow more natural, well executed scenarios like this one.

Basically, the punishment is just a slap on the wrist if anything. You showed full understanding of the DM rule, so it's not a spoken to as you don't need that. It also showed full understanding of what realistic escalation is, just a misguided ending of it, so it's not a full DM punishment. 

[Ultra3D]

2 minutes ago, jason said:

This is exactly what I'm talking about, though. You still don't have DM 1 or DM 2, it's just between a DM 1 and a "spoken to" because neither of those fit the scenario. It's basically saying that while the RP was good and sufficient, it still technically breaches our current rules. Due to this situation, I will be bringing up the possibility of changing/tweaking this rule to allow more natural, well executed scenarios like this one.

Basically, the punishment is just a slap on the wrist if anything. You showed full understanding of the DM rule, so it's not a spoken to as you don't need that. It also showed full understanding of what realistic escalation is, just a misguided ending of it, so it's not a full DM punishment. 

Ya but this is what I mean where since its a "grey zone" I still get punished. Just because its a slap on the wrist server wise its 100% going to prevent me from getting back into PD. Everything that goes onto someones record affects them no matter how big or small. But now Im just not going to do any kind up build up like this no matter the time because all it takes is a weird semantics issue and I have DM 1. Not worth my time so now my RP suffers.

[Dimja]

We are deviating from the main topic guys

[Angelo Capone]

On 10/27/2021 at 10:55 AM, jason said:

 

Having it on a case by case basis allows us to more accurately determine whether or not that person should be receiving a permanent ban vs a lengthy admin jail. If we apply a blanket change such as this, it allows a lot more rulebreakers to slip through the cracks and have the chance to commit additional rulebreaks where they otherwise would've been in the appeal process.

Overall this change has good intentions that are genuinely valid concerns, but we already do something similar on a more accurate and lowkey basis.

* This is my own opinion as to whether or not it will change in the near future, I'm not speaking on behalf of the staff team.

Having it on a case by case basis completely wrecks the whole point of having rules that you must follow, as this can lead to staff favouritism as well as staffs own interpretation. I've seen this multiple time over the years where one person gets a let off and the other gets a jail time. Rules should be explained in a lot more detail and provide examples to people, so people can understand why it is a rulebreak. I feel like the main rules this covers are DM, NRP and the backup rule where these rules are heavily based on opinion not the actuality of the rule.

On 10/27/2021 at 11:29 PM, jason said:

We don't add temporary bans because you don't have to actually serve any punishment by getting one. You just don't play or have to explain/justify your coming back. That's why we use ajails as well, you're forced to actually endure a punishment rather than just taking a break and going to a different game.

Having the mindset of wanting your player base to endure pain through punishment isn't the right mindset. People can still reflect on there actions while being off the game, i feel like there should a middle ground between a permeant ban and your last ajail. Even with temporary bans you can still make the player explain and justify there actions once there ban is over and if they don't show sufficient remorse and understanding perhaps a longer temp ban is needed. It's interesting that your saying that the main reason for an Ajail is to force someone to endure an punishment by forcing them to stay ingame, surely it should be in your best interest to allow the player to reflect on there actions and spend time thinking about there actions.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Angelo Capone

[Bala]

I think it's probably a combination of both. You want to punish the person to encourage them and by proxy, others, not to repeat a behaviour you do not want.
At the same time though, you also want to get across that getting a punishment in isolation doesn't mean that you're persona non grata in ECRP but that you've made a mistake.

To be honest though, with the way we are as a server, the game is rigged for criminals as far as rule breaks go. I've been here almost three years and I don't have one single active gameplay punishment on my record but if I had been a criminal for a sustained period, I honestly genuinely believe I would have gotten at least 1-2. Law Enforcement is easier in the sense that we follow two sets of rules but the IC rules we follow tend to be based around the OOC rules, we don't initiate these situations, we react to them. So we're to an extent protected. 

The very nature of criminal roleplay is to occasionally be violent, to group up, to put yourself on the line and that can come into conflict with the rules a lot more.

Maybe some idiots would think that they can commit rule-breaks and get away with it once their time had elapsed on a punishment but then you're also going to get good, decent players that have made a mistake, who think well if I behave myself for six months, I end up with a clean record again.

[Kon]

@Ultra3D @jason & @Bala all brought up some points that I agree with, but I'm mainly just commenting to give my own personal experience on after being unbanned and being on my last nonRP.

I just want to drill home how much fear I had once being unbanned, I was genuinely scared to play on the server as the smallest mistake would result in me being banned again, I had to throw a lot of the RP I had in mind out the window and turn away from RP in game (mostly gun fights and shit talking with enemy gangs) which in turn lead me from playing 12 hours a day to maybe 1 or 2 or sometimes not even getting on, then I decided it wasn't worth even being a donator because of how little I was playing. 

I think the best system that would be very helpful for people like me and @Ultra3D (but may require more resources from staff) would be that maybe after a full year of playing or even 2 years you have the option to ask staff to review your logs and see if you can get some removed based on your behavior over the year and the RP you have been able to provide for the players of the server. 

I really do believe some sort of system to remove extremely old logs from when people were new to the server would be beneficial and allow players like myself to involve themselves in RP without the fear of someone that doesn't like them try and get them permanently banned over the smallest thing from 2 year old logs.

Also shout out to @jason for being involved in the decision, and clarifying your thought process revolving bans/logs.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Kon
spelling

[Kon]

14 minutes ago, Bala said:

To be honest though, with the way we are as a server, the game is rigged for criminals as far as rule breaks go. I've been here almost three years and I don't have one single active gameplay punishment on my record but if I had been a criminal for a sustained period, I honestly genuinely believe I would have gotten at least 1-2. Law Enforcement is easier in the sense that we follow two sets of rules but the IC rules we follow tend to be based around the OOC rules, we don't initiate these situations, we react to them. So we're to an extent protected. 

There is a saying amongst crims on ECRP that Iv'e heard a lot; 'It's not whether you're going to get banned or not, but rather when'.

MOST criminal main players feel they are all on a timer.

[jason]

The following statements and views are my own and do not represent the staff team's views in any capacity.

I think that's an awful way of looking at things. If you feel like that, you need to seriously look at your playstyle and analyze the playstyle of others that have been punished. On top of that, the report culture between players who are constantly in shootouts (this includes LEO as well as crim) is what leads to those punishments when most of the time it really just wasn't worth reporting. I played around a year on crim combined across two characters and didn't get punished a single time. I was reported once (that I recall) and it was in a group report where I had barely any involvement.

It has NOTHING to do with staff status either. I was not a staff member for about 80-90% of my playtime as a crim. Both sides of these players need to play the other side and see what's going on. A lot of people tunnel themselves into the mindset of punishment invincibility or punishment inevitability because they fail to do this or fail to give it a fair try when they do it. Most people who play both sides extensively and simultaneously will rarely have the same issues that those who only tunnel themselves into one side do. I will not name players individually, but please look at players who have played either side then tunnel themselves into one. Watch how their mindset and attitude changes. 90% of these problems stem from close-minded echo chambers.

Expand your horizons, deeply consider whether or not a rulebreak was heinous enough to warrant a report, analyze what you were punished for and your own mistakes, and do the same for others that you see being punished.

[Angelo Capone]

18 minutes ago, jason said:

I played around a year on crim combined across two characters and didn't get punished a single time. I was reported once (that I recall) and it was in a group report where I had barely any involvement.

It has NOTHING to do with staff status either. I was not a staff member for about 80-90% of my playtime as a crim.

Times have changed, more punishments are being handed out now due to more reports being made. And the last sentence you said sums up the issue with the crim vs legal side of the server. Most moderators plus are either legal or cartel what makes decisions with reports heavily biased.

[jason]

Times have gotten better. Report culture in 2019 was so much worse and that's where almost all of my crim playtime was. There were constantly 3+ pages of reports.

[Angelo Capone]

7 minutes ago, jason said:

Times have gotten better. Report culture in 2019 was so much worse and that's where almost all of my crim playtime was. There were constantly 3+ pages of reports.

I dont want to go off topic, but i disagree with you on that one.

[Bala]

It's an awful way of looking at it, but it's a pretty accurate representation of the mindset to be honest. Eclipse feels like a completely different server now to 2019 and while we've improved in some areas, I think we've regressed in others.

Even getting reported can be a stressful experience, I remember getting reported for talking about LS Drift in a song. That shit was stressful, I like it here, I don't want to get banned. You have the opposition putting their spin on things, then it's debateable whether or not the initial ruling the mod+ makes is legitimate and will stick long term. But also, I'm on a final warning for OOC toxicity since late 2019. You know what I've done for ECRP in that time, yet that final warning still hangs there. It's a lot easier to not be toxic out of character than it is to not get a Non RP/DM, situations often happen with little time to react, you can't plan for stuff sometimes.

The line between DM/NonRP when you're on the criminal side of things seems very very slim, which leads to a toxic paradox. 
You want criminals to play more on the server but in doing so, there is more opportunity then for a slip-up which can result in you not being able to play. If you care about playing on the server which many criminals still do, it's an anxious spot to be in.

Sometimes as a player, it feels like there is a genuine disconnect between staff and players.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Bala

[Angelo Capone]

2 minutes ago, Bala said:

It's an awful way of looking at it, but it's a pretty accurate representation of the mindset to be honest. Eclipse feels like a completely different server now to 2019 and while we've improved in some areas, I think we've regressed in others.

Even getting reported can be a stressful experience, I remember getting reported for talking about LS Drift in a song. That shit was stressful, I like it here, I don't want to get banned. You have the opposition putting their spin on things, then it's debateable whether or not the initial ruling the mod+ makes is legitimate and will stick long term. But also, I'm on a final warning for OOC toxicity since late 2019. You know what I've done for ECRP in that time, yet that final warning still hangs there. It's a lot easier to not be toxic out of character than it is to not get a Non RP/DM, situations often happen with little time to react, you can't plan for stuff sometimes.

The line between DM/NonRP when you're on the criminal side of things seems very very slim, which leads to a toxic paradox. 
You want criminals to play more on the server but in doing so, there is more opportunity then for a slip-up which can result in you not being able to play. If you care about playing on the server which many criminals still do, it's an anxious spot to be in.

Sometimes as a player, it feels like there is a genuine disconnect between staff and players.

Agree with everything your saying, but sadly most staff members disagree with much of the communities suggestions on this topic.