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Krallei

Adjust the Scamming rule

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Intro

Let me be very very clear on this. Eclipse Roleplay is a very realistic server. However when it comes to scamming on this server it is the most unrealistic thing I've ever seen. I've been buying, selling and trading in real life for more then 12 years now and never have I have ever been scammed. I've done all this with friends, randoms, crack heads, tweakers you name the type of person and I have never ever been scammed. Let me explain to you the problem vs real life.

Problem

Let's starts out with the obvious problems.

"Trading" In real life when you're going to trade some cars for example you don't call a middle man. You guys meet at one of the houses or at a walmart or something and you each test drive each others vehicle with you in it. If you both like it you would hand each other keys at the same time, talk and shake hands and be on your way. I've done this plenty of times. You would never give the other person keys first. This is the problem with trading cars here on eclipse. When you go to trade someone 99% of the time their goal is to scam you which is no way in hell realistic. I've done this many years in real life and have never ever seen this. It's wild. In real life if you like each others vehicles you like I said trade keys at the same time, shake hands and be on your way. In real life also when you go to look at someones vehicle or house or whatever it is you're trading you're going in interest in trading your item for theirs where as on this server it's to scam. People do this in public places to like what?! You're telling me in real life you're going to scam someone at their house when they have a gun on there hip? Or you're going to scam someone at walmart or the bank or wherever when there is cameras around? 1st of all if you were to scam someone you would not do it in public place. You would take them to a private place. Also if you were to trade someone in real life and you like each others items you don't be like wait hold up lets find a middle man. That is so unrealistic. Also a waste of time. You either like each others items and trade or don't trade at all.

"Buying/Selling" let's be honest. The only realistic way to scam most of the time is with fake money and even then it's kinda rare besides businesses. Normally in real life also like I said above when you go to sell something then your goal is to sell it to someone not scam them where as on this server it's backwards. All the times I have sold something to someone that they are buying I always check the money before I give them any sort of title or keys or anything and that is how it is in stores as well. You have to pay for the item before it's yours and you can leave the store or building with that item or product. So let's say you're at bank buying someones car, you take out the cash and give it to them and they deposit it and leave. Realistically that would not happen. If you paid them the cash you would be watching them and if they tried to leave then chances are you would catch them. They would not be able to deposit it because you would catch them. It's not fake money because that is not a thing in eclipse and most of all you just did it in a public place where cameras and everyone else caught you do it. So the fact people get away with this in eclipse and admins can't do nothing about it is wild to me. Those goes for vehicles houses and everything else.

Verdict

There needs to either be a no scamming rule period or something to make it way more realistic like no scamming in public places and doing it in a more realistic way. Just like how the robbing people in public places got changed because it's not realistic I think the same needs to happen to this. Not only is it not realistic but coming from someone who has been scammed on the server himself it's a super shitty feeling when you put so many hours and time into the server to get a house or car just to get scammed out of it in the most unrealistic way possible. There needs to be a no scamming rule period or there needs to be thought put into this to make it way more realistic because the amount and type of scamming that goes on in this servers is dumb wild.

Feel free to leave your opinion on this. Just for me as someone who has been wheeling and dealing for 12+ years in the real world scamming like this that goes on in the server is mad dumb and unrealistic. Thank you for listening.

Edited by Krallei
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This post needs more traction, I too have bought and sold cars 2nd hand in real life several times and the way it is handled in the server is totally ridiculous.

I actually just got scammed the other day at bank where we wrote up a bill of sale and both parties signed the contract. I gave him my half of the bargain then he just sat there not responding until his friend showed up and then they drove off. I couldn't pull guns or anything because it was at bank. One of the most unrealistic RP scenarios I've had on this server. I don't know how this is not at the very least abusing NCZ.

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I totally agree with you, i got scammed by Lisa_Akam, we wrote a contract and we both signed and she took a 300k vehicle and took off, admins didn't do anything about it, they said scamming is allowed on this server, this is 200% unrealistic as you stated above, you don't scam people in their houses and the other party has a gun on their hip. hopefully the admins would do anything about it. 

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I am neutral.

Having a more or less complicated plan to scam someone that takes 1 hour or several months is some roleplay that I hardly ever saw on this server but when it happens, I have no words. I investigated scams for months and retrieved millions for the victims when I was dealing with them. The thing is 95% of the people don't use complex plans or tactics. Most of them powergame because the script makes so the car is yours after /transfervehicle is done. With that being said, most scammers are also rulebreakers (I am sorry to say it but at least one server rule was broken in every single investigation: when the ratio is 1.0, it isn't debatable anymore).

Being a person that solved scam cases might make you think I am against them but I am not. I would just like the quality of scam roleplay to be higher and not just people abusing /transfervehicle after signing a contract with their name and lastname which would finalize the sale/trade (which again, is powergaming).

If the scam you just pulled is braindead and the quality of your roleplay was garbage, you should give the assets back to avoid a poor roleplay punishment.

Edited by TheCactus
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Buying/selling you can do in 100% safety at high-end, or at the door. People do it with cash to avoid the tax that comes with it, therefore a risk should be there.

In regards to trading, that is where the argument is the strongest, as there is no way to trade two thing at once script-wise.

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+rep this 100% i have also been buying and selling vehicles in real life i have had over 40+ cars sens i was 16 and now im 22 i have never once been scammed there to many times i see people write contracts and the people sign there legal names on it and  the car gets transferred over and then he just gets in and says look you just got scammed and drove away no way in real life will you sign a contract with your real name on that and be able to get away with this let alone just get in a vehicle and say you just got scammed people look at this to much as a video game while doing these interactions and not from a rp stand point and i feel the rules regarding this need to be re evaluated/ or we should possibly have a trade function added where we can put the car keys/title in and they can put house keys or money in also kinda like trading on other games or make it to where contracts hold a higher value and if the player is caught breaking it with proof the player who was scammed can report it too pd and a bolo can be put on to the scammer i feel like this would add more to rp scenarios and would also decrease scams iv seen a guy with a bitcoin retro scam 7 people in a week cause they thought his car was legit and saw him use /b to be able to get in his car stating he needs to be in the car to transfer then gets in the car and says you got scammed ic and drives away i just don't see alot of the scams being realistic here i see them more as people just playing a game and scamming in ways that shouldn't be allowed  i feel as scamming in a ncz is a little much as scamming is a crime and ncz is a no crime zone im not saying stop scamming as a whole but i feel as if rules should be stricter or like i stated if you have a contract you can go to pd and if the person gets caught with the bolo you can get your items back 

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1 hour ago, alexalex303 said:

Buying/selling you can do in 100% safety at high-end, or at the door. People do it with cash to avoid the tax that comes with it, therefore a risk should be there.

In regards to trading, that is where the argument is the strongest, as there is no way to trade two thing at once script-wise.

Most of the time in reality when you buy and sell you do it with cash which would be not taxable. There should be a risk as well but then if you think about it. People are doing it in NCZ or aka public places with tons of people around and cameras watching them and they don't care about the risk because the risk is so small. You scam someone and go to jail for maybe a couple hours and pay a small fee but guess what. You just walked a way with a free vehicle or house so it's worth it. They have a small risk and the person who originally owned the item looses everything. They are not really fair risks. You would not scam someone at the bank when there are cameras and stuff in reality even if you were avoiding tax.

 

As far as trading well there is no script to do so but a script like that is not really that difficult to make. Coming from someone who does development work currently. Something like that would be simple to the devs in this servers. They could easily be a script made for a auto middle man just like the painkiller thing that got released. Like I was saying before also is you would not scam someone out of there care in a public place and or leave your current vehicle there like what happens now because if someone did that to me in person and left there vehicle there it would be perm destroyed which can not be done in this game.

 

As buying and trading as a whole not only does it not makes sense for it to happen in a public place (NCZ) It would not make sense to do it when they have a gun on there hip. Because as stated above the other person is not taking that "risk" seriously IC. It's the whole well He shot and killed me and I re spawned at the hospital but I still got the item so who cares.

 

I feel as if the whole scamming rule that currently exist and very poorly thought out. There needs to be realistic ways to scam if you're going to do so and there needs to be a fair way of trading. Half of the time the scamming rule that currently does exist does not even get enforced. I got scammed out of 2 of my house from the guy ooc deceiving and reported on forums with enough proof. The guy gets a warning for doing so and I don't get my houses back. This is happening non stop to others to. It's purely not realistic and when it's not realistic nothing gets done about it.

Edited by Krallei
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I think the easiest way to make it better just add in the rules a No scamming in NCZ. Scamming is robbing someone of their items and since you can't rob in NCZ why should you be allowed to scam people. I feel as if this rule was added then at least serious traders and such could trade with peace of mind.

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3 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

Buying/selling you can do in 100% safety at high-end, or at the door. People do it with cash to avoid the tax that comes with it, therefore a risk should be there.

In regards to trading, that is where the argument is the strongest, as there is no way to trade two thing at once script-wise.

While true script wise, you can trade things at the same time in one /do, which would instantly be PGing if they took your half script wise and didn't do their own half. 

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6 hours ago, Krallei said:

I think the easiest way to make it better just add in the rules a No scamming in NCZ. Scamming is robbing someone of their items and since you can't rob in NCZ why should you be allowed to scam people. I feel as if this rule was added then at least serious traders and such could trade with peace of mind.

I would also add that selling assets in an NCZ without the intent of paying tax within minutes should be a breach of the NCZ rule.

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4 hours ago, TheCactus said:

I would also add that selling assets in an NCZ without the intent of paying tax within minutes should be a breach of the NCZ rule.

Okay, so taking buying and selling out of the question then for example since you have HE. You still should be able to trade safety in a NCZ.

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Scamming is important as it keeps the server fun/exciting. (and this is from the perspective of someone who has lost about 800k to scams)

Just some counterpoints regarding this topic:
- if scamming is not allowed in NCZ, neither should tax evasion
- tax evasion performed by gov employees without corruption perms should be considered OOC rulebreak

Edited by Jleoni
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On 7/19/2020 at 11:16 PM, Krallei said:

Intro

Let me be very very clear on this. Eclipse Roleplay is a very realistic server. However when it comes to scamming on this server it is the most unrealistic thing I've ever seen. I've been buying, selling and trading in real life for more then 12 years now and never have I have ever been scammed. I've done all this with friends, randoms, crack heads, tweakers you name the type of person and I have never ever been scammed. Let me explain to you the problem vs real life.

Problem

Let's starts out with the obvious problems.

"Trading" In real life when you're going to trade some cars for example you don't call a middle man. You guys meet at one of the houses or at a walmart or something and you each test drive each others vehicle with you in it. If you both like it you would hand each other keys at the same time, talk and shake hands and be on your way. I've done this plenty of times. You would never give the other person keys first. This is the problem with trading cars here on eclipse. When you go to trade someone 99% of the time their goal is to scam you which is no way in hell realistic. I've done this many years in real life and have never ever seen this. It's wild. In real life if you like each others vehicles you like I said trade keys at the same time, shake hands and be on your way. In real life also when you go to look at someones vehicle or house or whatever it is you're trading you're going in interest in trading your item for theirs where as on this server it's to scam. People do this in public places to like what?! You're telling me in real life you're going to scam someone at their house when they have a gun on there hip? Or you're going to scam someone at walmart or the bank or wherever when there is cameras around? 1st of all if you were to scam someone you would not do it in public place. You would take them to a private place. Also if you were to trade someone in real life and you like each others items you don't be like wait hold up lets find a middle man. That is so unrealistic. Also a waste of time. You either like each others items and trade or don't trade at all.

"Buying/Selling" let's be honest. The only realistic way to scam most of the time is with fake money and even then it's kinda rare besides businesses. Normally in real life also like I said above when you go to sell something then your goal is to sell it to someone not scam them where as on this server it's backwards. All the times I have sold something to someone that they are buying I always check the money before I give them any sort of title or keys or anything and that is how it is in stores as well. You have to pay for the item before it's yours and you can leave the store or building with that item or product. So let's say you're at bank buying someones car, you take out the cash and give it to them and they deposit it and leave. Realistically that would not happen. If you paid them the cash you would be watching them and if they tried to leave then chances are you would catch them. They would not be able to deposit it because you would catch them. It's not fake money because that is not a thing in eclipse and most of all you just did it in a public place where cameras and everyone else caught you do it. So the fact people get away with this in eclipse and admins can't do nothing about it is wild to me. Those goes for vehicles houses and everything else.

Verdict

There needs to either be a no scamming rule period or something to make it way more realistic like no scamming in public places and doing it in a more realistic way. Just like how the robbing people in public places got changed because it's not realistic I think the same needs to happen to this. Not only is it not realistic but coming from someone who has been scammed on the server himself it's a super shitty feeling when you put so many hours and time into the server to get a house or car just to get scammed out of it in the most unrealistic way possible. There needs to be a no scamming rule period or there needs to be thought put into this to make it way more realistic because the amount and type of scamming that goes on in this servers is dumb wild.

Feel free to leave your opinion on this. Just for me as someone who has been wheeling and dealing for 12+ years in the real world scamming like this that goes on in the server is mad dumb and unrealistic. Thank you for listening.

Agreed, I was just scammed in a bank. Federal property, with CCTV and everything. In real life no ones getting away with that and I do believe that there should be a rule where you can’t scam on federal property or something like that to ensure that you and the person you are trading with do not have to worry about getting scammed. I’m currently dealing with a scammer right now he scammed me for a GT and what I find a lot is most of these scammers have been doing /do and haven’t been fulfilling their characters actions which are against the rules. You aren’t allowed to lie in /do and a lot of people are getting away with it as well. I’ve been a the bank a lot recently and I’ve been hearing a lot about people getting scammed and i just believe it shouldn’t be allowed. It has created a lot of frustration in the community and I believe it’s unfair that someone can just take someone’s belongings that took them so long to obtain without any consequences. This is just an opinion and please do not take it as disrespect but out of experience I wish that something would be done about scamming or at least a rule not to do it on federal property.

 

thank you.

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Just don't hand over something without guaranteeing you'll receive compensation in return and you'll be fine.
There are scripted ways to do transactions safely without getting scammed. Avoiding these runs the risk of being scammed.

If you need to, roleplay handing over both the car keys, and formal right of overship to the car with /me's and /do's from both parties to solidify the rp with the truthful /do, then both of you can do your transfer and hand over the cash to complete the /me and /do rp you have established, eliminating the risk of being scammed. If you're going to be silly enough to hand over a car, or an excess of money, and expect them to maintain their side of the bargain, then you're the one at fault.
An example could be:

/me would hand over the keys to the car and the paperwork for the car while extending his arm to receive the $100,000 in cash from you at the same time, not letting go until I receive the money.
/do would you take the paperwork from me and hand over the $100,000 cash during this exchange?

Now this solidifies the fact you are not only giving keys to the vehicle, but also the title to it for them to sign over to their name, as well as reaching out to exchange payment for the transaction at the same time, guaranteeing the amount of money they hand you would be correct, and that they can't give you anything different.
If they proceed to accept this /do and don't fulfil it as described, they would be untruthful in /do which is against the rules and can be reported on the forum.

This is an overexaggerated way of doing it, and im sure with some thought, could be done in a smoother more natural feeling way. But if you can secure the deal properly with /me's and /do's you can have a good transaction filled with some nice detailed roleplay while avoiding the scripted methods of transferring vehicles/houses for whatever reason you have for doing so.


Disclamer: Using the provided scripted methods of transaction (high end, low end, buying/selling of houses at the front door) is the safest way to handle these things and it easily worth the small tax price to ensure a smooth and quick transaction.

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14 minutes ago, Aieos said:

Disclamer: Using the provided scripted methods of transaction (high end, low end, buying/selling of houses at the front door) is the safest way to handle these things and it easily worth the small tax price to ensure a smooth and quick transaction.

Getting scammed at the bank for buying a car off market is just another small crime really, cause whomever's involved is not going to pay the tax required by the penal code, so just go to any of the markets.

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26 minutes ago, Aieos said:

Just don't hand over something without guaranteeing you'll receive compensation in return and you'll be fine.
There are scripted ways to do transactions safely without getting scammed. Avoiding these runs the risk of being scammed.

If you need to, roleplay handing over both the car keys, and formal right of overship to the car with /me's and /do's from both parties to solidify the rp with the truthful /do, then both of you can do your transfer and hand over the cash to complete the /me and /do rp you have established, eliminating the risk of being scammed. If you're going to be silly enough to hand over a car, or an excess of money, and expect them to maintain their side of the bargain, then you're the one at fault.
An example could be:

/me would hand over the keys to the car and the paperwork for the car while extending his arm to receive the $100,000 in cash from you at the same time, not letting go until I receive the money.
/do would you take the paperwork from me and hand over the $100,000 cash during this exchange?

Now this solidifies the fact you are not only giving keys to the vehicle, but also the title to it for them to sign over to their name, as well as reaching out to exchange payment for the transaction at the same time, guaranteeing the amount of money they hand you would be correct, and that they can't give you anything different.
If they proceed to accept this /do and don't fulfil it as described, they would be untruthful in /do which is against the rules and can be reported on the forum.

This is an overexaggerated way of doing it, and im sure with some thought, could be done in a smoother more natural feeling way. But if you can secure the deal properly with /me's and /do's you can have a good transaction filled with some nice detailed roleplay while avoiding the scripted methods of transferring vehicles/houses for whatever reason you have for doing so.


Disclamer: Using the provided scripted methods of transaction (high end, low end, buying/selling of houses at the front door) is the safest way to handle these things and it easily worth the small tax price to ensure a smooth and quick transaction.

I completely understand with what your saying but as to someone who just got scammed it’s it’s pretty frustrating. I get exactly what you mean and tnank you for your response.

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What can be done here is to script a government issued contract that can be obtained in city hall or by a lawyer.

The contract that one may want to trade something will appear on the left side of your screen (just above the map). The contract will include the person's full name first and there will be section as to what to include in the deal (houses, vehicles, money and other stuff which you may even select each of them as part of your belongings) to the trader who will also need to offer its stuffs. So, both parties offer their stuffs and after the proposals of the trade, both parties see again what has each party offered in the deal and finally both agree on them and scriptly the deal it's done.

The command for this will be "/buycontract" and "/offertrade" but in order to do this you have to either go to city hall or call a lawyer at the place you want the deal done. To obtain this contract one may need to pay also depending on what would the deal include (for example, the contract that would include a house will cost more) in order to not avoid taxes one would have paid normally.

Edited by kachingwe
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