PD and illegal imports; recent changes that should be reversed.

[Marca]

I'd just like to point out the "cops get everything for free arguments"... Yes, it's how it works. No cop in the world (hopefully) has to buy their own gun, bullets, armor, car and gas/maintenance. I would say there could be more micro-management when it comes to government vehicles and also all vehicles on the server really.

Thing is, there's no way to RP'ly infiltrate the gangs outside of the city (ones importing the guns). There's no RP with them, while I feel like there should be. I mean if we get rid of imports and force gangs in LS to make their own guns or acquire them on their own within the city, I'd say it's pretty fair to have a small and simple automation to inform the LSPD about guns, since it's IC RP and also promotes more RP. Don't forget, LSPD is just PD, not the FIB or IAA. Since this is RP, we should assume those buildings are functional and are doing different operations on their own, even outside of the city. The city we're all in is meant to be populated, but I guess it doesn't feel like it since there are no NPC's, giving everyone the feeling like they're never watched.

Another thing to consider is that criminals constantly poke the bear, the bear being the LS government. With their constant running around robbing, shooting and just causing general danger to.. everyone, the LS government has to increase its funding, to provide security to the people of LS. Crime rate in LS is high, that is why the budget for security will also increase and the state will get more funding to reduce it. In this case, there will be more officers in the PD, better equipment, more operatives like SWAT and detectives would be assigned to the city's security forces. However it doesn't stop at the PD, different agents from around the country and probably the world would be included into this. This is where the FIB and IAA would also be included, but unfortunately they're not an official faction on the server, because they simply wouldn't work out that well. Unless the crime rate decreases, which would cause the LSPD to get less funding and less resources in general, it's safe to assume their numbers, equipment and everything else will be high.

Keep in mind, LS criminals are not only importing heavy weapons, but also are exporting drugs and vehicle parts at a very high rate. A normal PD cannot tackle all of this on its own and it's also when different agencies from different states would get involved to try and stop the operations.

[JayGamble]

1 hour ago, Marca said:

I'd just like to point out the "cops get everything for free arguments"... Yes, it's how it works. No cop in the world (hopefully) has to buy their own gun, bullets, armor, car and gas/maintenance. I would say there could be more micro-management when it comes to government vehicles and also all vehicles on the server really.

Thing is, there's no way to RP'ly infiltrate the gangs outside of the city (ones importing the guns). There's no RP with them, while I feel like there should be. I mean if we get rid of imports and force gangs in LS to make their own guns or acquire them on their own within the city, I'd say it's pretty fair to have a small and simple automation to inform the LSPD about guns, since it's IC RP and also promotes more RP. Don't forget, LSPD is just PD, not the FIB or IAA. Since this is RP, we should assume those buildings are functional and are doing different operations on their own, even outside of the city. The city we're all in is meant to be populated, but I guess it doesn't feel like it since there are no NPC's, giving everyone the feeling like they're never watched.

Another thing to consider is that criminals constantly poke the bear, the bear being the LS government. With their constant running around robbing, shooting and just causing general danger to.. everyone, the LS government has to increase its funding, to provide security to the people of LS. Crime rate in LS is high, that is why the budget for security will also increase and the state will get more funding to reduce it. In this case, there will be more officers in the PD, better equipment, more operatives like SWAT and detectives would be assigned to the city's security forces. However it doesn't stop at the PD, different agents from around the country and probably the world would be included into this. This is where the FIB and IAA would also be included, but unfortunately they're not an official faction on the server, because they simply wouldn't work out that well. Unless the crime rate decreases, which would cause the LSPD to get less funding and less resources in general, it's safe to assume their numbers, equipment and everything else will be high.

Keep in mind, LS criminals are not only importing heavy weapons, but also are exporting drugs and vehicle parts at a very high rate. A normal PD cannot tackle all of this on its own and it's also when different agencies from different states would get involved to try and stop the operations.

This is pretty ignorant, in most states out of probationary period, officers are able to use whatever firearm they'd like, most commonly being their OWN. Ever wonder why police officers firearms vary so much in the US? Heavy weapons are few and far between (especially in California), and I can promise you an officer has never been issued a micro-uzi, in this country. Why is there no RP with gangs? We've dealt icly with snitches for PD, and it's made our lives very difficult; this is what "Investigative Bureau" is for, and these are the people "infiltrating" street gangs, not "fib/fbi" You say "criminals" poke the bear, but in my recent experience it's the absolute opposite; we're constantly harassed during "social / civilian" rp if we're "notable" criminals, especially with how the laws have changed and how easy it is to catch us on a charge with a simple "pat-down".

[alexalex303]

45 minutes ago, JayGamble said:

This is pretty ignorant, in most states out of probationary period, officers are able to use whatever firearm they'd like, most commonly being their OWN. Ever wonder why police officers firearms vary so much in the US? Heavy weapons are few and far between (especially in California), and I can promise you an officer has never been issued a micro-uzi, in this country. Why is there no RP with gangs? 

That is incorrect. All officers get issued a firearm covered by the department, they may choose which model of firearm it is (depending on the size and budget of the department) but it is paid by the department. Departments also give them permission to carry a secondary/backup firearm, usually of their choosing, but sometimes subject to restrictions. They do not buy their main firearm.

Heavy weapons are mandatory in any large cities following the North Hollywood shootout between law enforcement and heavily armored bank robberers. It was clear to everyone that law enforcement needed to have bigger weapons available, and since then, and following other notable shootouts, law enforcement agencies will approve (but not always issue) heavy firearms to most officers. 

[Jbacon]

I would like to bring back an old point I brought up as it has apparently become relevant....

If you take the crime rate of Los Santos, that I know about... which is roughly 200 murders every 4 ic days.... that's 50 a day... which is likely light... compare that to the city of Los Angeles.... which had what last year, 243 murders according to statistics... as the city is based on that, we can assume that roughly 1 murder happened a day (easy math) has 50x the homicide rate of the city we are modeled at meaning we would have 50x times the resources, police force.... Los Angeles has approximately 9,000 officers on permeant positions last year. thus meaning if Los Santos held the same population as Los Angeles we would have 450,000 cops holding permeant positions. When we take into account murder rates of the city as a benchmark... meaning 50murders per day = 450,000 cops... I can assure you that if the city of Los Angeles had 50 murders a day that there would be a huge purge of people.... consider that 18250 murders would of occurred in 1 year...

Using arrests in Los Angeles for all crimes (minor and up = 1.3million since 2010, 1.3m/9 = 145k arrests per year) this includes petty crime but we are only looking at murder in Los Santos (so not apples to apples but good for an idea)    so they have 9,000 officers to handle 145k arrests PER YEAR.... that's 395arrests a day, but lets remove anything less then a felony for numbers sake. thus leaving roughly.... we will take charges from Carrying an unlicensed firearm down, thus 114,563 arrests in 9 years. (source = https://data.lacity.org/d/yru6-6re4/visualization )

, 

so we assume a steady rate of crime = 114563/9 = 12729.2 arrests per year... lets say 13,000 per year for larger crimes and more serious crimes. now we look at murders only in Los Santos 50 per day x 365 days a year = 18250 murders alone in our city.... Murders alone... take into account reckless driving and unlicensed firearms, vehicle theft, robbery.... I can almost guarantee there are 300 other crimes per day = another 109,500 crimes... putting us and 127,750 arrest for a population of 300 players at any one given time, where as the city of los angels has a population of almost 14million people.

Thus to think that the city of los Santos wouldn't have
A. Death Penalty,
B. The ENTIRE American Army residing in it
C. Martial Law 
D. Kill on sight policy for anyone waving a gun

is foolish to believe. Now I realize its a game, and understand that. Swat can be killed and often are... ask the zetas they kill every member that's on shift for PD at least once a night. And they wonder why when one officer survives their gang is hunted... Or when you get someone coming into the police station "I want to know if im wanted... and they have 50 warrants" and then laugh as they walk outside to an army of people standing there.... Or you go to a gathering and god forbid a cop comes and says man, you have warrants lets go... I don't think your going to just wander around Los Angeles if your sitting on 50 arrest warrants for very long, bounty hunters, cops would be after you for low level crimes, high level... like most here Killing a Peace officer becomes a huge operation for your arrest and you will likely be shot, beaten and thrown away to never see light again.

So with it being a game, I would expect players to understand that fighting swat would be a poor choice for ones health both in game and in real life, because I can assure you, based on an incident that happened in Canada about 6 hours from my house, you shot a cop... your not going to trial, your going to be buried 6 feet under in a tiny hole. ((guy went nuts shot 2 cops, walked around his town like it was GTA Online, pointed a gun at one officer and got shot 6 times by SWAT with large caliber rifles. Another incident guy shot a cop, and was snipped from 200 yards away, didn't even know what hit him... this is in Canada, not the USA.) 

Moving on, you want better rp from cops in Eclipse, give them RP... don't just come up and say haha I have warrants chase me... or run around cop baiting... or waiting for cops to show up so you can shoot them... setting up ambushs after cop baiting to just get a shoot out isn't exactly what I would call amazing rp, all be it if your gang chooses to risk everything to save everyone so be it. (good on you for protecting you members) but when the detectives crash down on you, don't go to /b evidence, show me proof please.

Yes I side tracked this and for that im sorry. But complaining about being harassed as noteable criminals... im certain a murder, aint wandering around a city he just killed someone in in (8 ic hours as that's what your jtime is, I know for a fact no one rps 10 years of jailtime.) so you kill a bunch of cops, go to jail for 8ic hours, then you do it again, and people complain about PD rp.

Anyways end rant. PD is not OP, and we are held to the same rules the rest of the server is, plus we have internal rules also that are enforced, just because you cant see it happening doesn't mean it isn't.

[LeftSharkie]

On 5/27/2019 at 7:07 AM, Yputi said:

I just think we come to a point again where we have to accept PD and Criminals are not equal.

PD and Criminals aren't supposed to be equal. PD is supposed to be strong.

[TheCanadian]

6 hours ago, Rubsmeister said:

Police is corruptable, held back by government funding and so on and so forth. 

 

5 hours ago, Marca said:

I'd just like to point out the "cops get everything for free arguments"... Yes, it's how it works. No cop in the world (hopefully) has to buy their own gun, bullets, armor, car and gas/maintenance. I would say there could be more micro-management when it comes to government vehicles and also all vehicles on the server really.

I dont think when people talk about PD funding anyone is saying cops should pay out of pocket for the weapons, vehicles, or uniform. What many are suggesting is that PD should have a form of economy behind it, it would also add this "realism" many people are using as a reason to -1 this. PD can pull out 300 m4s,50 insurgents,clothe and armor 500officers a day and not have to worry about the expenses behind the scenes about these weapons, vehicles and clothing/armor. If there is a price tied to them, and an actual economy behind it it would add more realism to PD and make them manage their expenses. After all, why are taxes a thing in the server if the government factions (PD/MD) Dont have to manage their expenses and set up a plan to stay within the given budget. 

 

[Yputi]

19 hours ago, gohena said:

+1, there should be another way for them to find out same thing with speeding camaras just powergaming and giving a ticket even in a stolen car.

Those were implemented for other reasons. The only relation between those and PD is that you have to pay them at PD. Pretty unrealistic to drive 150+ in a 70 zone that's also a NCZ isn't it?

 

1 hour ago, TheCanadian said:

 

I dont think when people talk about PD funding anyone is saying cops should pay out of pocket for the weapons, vehicles, or uniform. What many are suggesting is that PD should have a form of economy behind it, it would also add this "realism" many people are using as a reason to -1 this. PD can pull out 300 m4s,50 insurgents,clothe and armor 500officers a day and not have to worry about the expenses behind the scenes about these weapons, vehicles and clothing/armor. If there is a price tied to them, and an actual economy behind it it would add more realism to PD and make them manage their expenses. After all, why are taxes a thing in the server if the government factions (PD/MD) Dont have to manage their expenses and set up a plan to stay within the given budget. 

 

Maybe apply for a ride along maybe then you understand how LSEMS work. The crime in the city is just unrealistic, how high it is now. 

 

If people start to use arguments like "They already nerfed it once"... I am not sure what they expect of projects IRL.. it's called tweaking. And appersntly the tweak want good enough.

 

[TheCanadian]

2 minutes ago, Yputi said:

Maybe apply for a ride along maybe then you understand how LSEMS work. The crime in the city is just unrealistic, how high it is now. 

 

If people start to use arguments like "They already nerfed it once"... I am not sure what they expect of projects IRL.. it's called tweaking. And appersntly the tweak want good enough.

sorry, but how is this a counter to any of my statements/suggestions? i am confused.

[Yputi]

15 minutes ago, TheCanadian said:

sorry, but how is this a counter to any of my statements/suggestions? i am confused.

As you state what PD pulls out per day, which is not even close to what they actually do. 

You need to be a certain rank for certain weapons, you need to apply for them, you need training. 

Something else I mentioned was the unrealistic amount of crime (which also related to my ride along g suggestion). I don't know what's more realistic, having more crime because of lack of budget, or less crime and more 'money' for PD to enforce this so we don't have to blow up the island before it even escalates more.

 

But I am sure we are not on the same line, which is fine.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Yputi

[BULLDOZER]

Hi I am just going to drop something in that was said earlier.

SWAT is very trained, we have 2 hour training's each week that if you don't turn up to any in a month you get removed (ish). Then we do in depth RP training that focus' on many different aspects. We have exams that have both written and scenario questions that you have to pass to get in.

So SWAT are not just random officers with guns, they are trained highly, like they would be irl.

Also SWAT does have a limit to how many they can have, we can have a maximum of 4 teams of 6 so 24. This excludes SWAT command, which is another 6 people. Plus High Command are automatically a part of SWAT. 

 

So we have 100 members ish at the moment, around 30 of them *can* be SWAT, we have less right now.

SWAT is not *OP* or needs a nerf, they are highly trained and makes sense that they would be highly funded but apart from weapons.  

 

Hope this helps!

Edited May 31, 2019 by BULLDOZER

[TheCanadian]

28 minutes ago, Yputi said:

As you state what PD pulls out per day, which is not even close to what they actually do. 

its why i said "can" implying a hypothetical situation that if they were to do that, they would have nothing to worry about in terms of a budget as they dont have one. they have no form of economy for their weapons, vehicle, armor or clothing. But thank you for presenting my argument disingenuously.

19 minutes ago, BULLDOZER said:

SWAT is not *OP* or needs a nerf, they are highly trained and makes sense that they would be highly funded but apart from weapons.  

 I agree with this, swat should not be nerfed. It is after all called "Special Weapons And Tactics" for a reason. 

Edited June 1, 2019 by TheCanadian

[Linden]

Crime rate is so ridiculously high because there isn't any real fear of consequences. Everybody knows they can only be imprisoned for a couple of hours and that you can't die, so it doesn't matter what happens. People that shoot cops and kill people daily would have been shot dead, imprisoned for life, or sentenced to death long ago.

You just get to do whatever you want and have a city with a crime rate that far exceeds any country in real life, then OOCly complain about any advantages the cops have over you.

[JayGamble]

11 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

That is incorrect. All officers get issued a firearm covered by the department, they may choose which model of firearm it is (depending on the size and budget of the department) but it is paid by the department. Departments also give them permission to carry a secondary/backup firearm, usually of their choosing, but sometimes subject to restrictions. They do not buy their main firearm.

Heavy weapons are mandatory in any large cities following the North Hollywood shootout between law enforcement and heavily armored bank robberers. It was clear to everyone that law enforcement needed to have bigger weapons available, and since then, and following other notable shootouts, law enforcement agencies will approve (but not always issue) heavy firearms to most officers. 

I mentioned a firearm after probationary period, as officers receive department issued firearms, but there are many officers in the US that use their own firearms. To say no officer in the US has purchased their own firearm and used it in the line of duty is a bit silly. I never said heavy weapons don't exist, but they are not taken out in every routine stop, they are not slung around an officers back just because "it can be", they are also not carrying multiple large weapons, and in most situations you won't see these weapons being utilized in everyday scenarios. 

I'll always be behind the idea of a "load out" when you pick and choose equipment based on some sort of point system, to help encourage balance, versus having everything in your cruiser, if you're the appropriate rank. I don't think criminals should be stronger than PD by any means, I just think that adding a bit of realism to PD equipment makes more sense.

[Linden]

1 hour ago, JayGamble said:

 I never said heavy weapons don't exist, but they are not taken out in every routine stop, they are not slung around an officers back just because "it can be", they are also not carrying multiple large weapons, and in most situations you won't see these weapons being utilized in everyday scenarios. 

I'll always be behind the idea of a "load out" when you pick and choose equipment based on some sort of point system, to help encourage balance, versus having everything in your cruiser, if you're the appropriate rank. I don't think criminals should be stronger than PD by any means, I just think that adding a bit of realism to PD equipment makes more sense.

Appropriate equipment for the appropriate situation. Many criminals in LS are so extreme they would realistically be classed as terrorists and there would be more than just the local police department after you.

[JayGamble]

10 minutes ago, Linden said:

Appropriate equipment for the appropriate situation. Many criminals in LS are so extreme they would realistically be classed as terrorists and there would be more than just the local police department after you.

I agree to an extent for sure, but I still think certain weapons being actively used don't entirely make sense; the micro will always bug me.

[Linden]

3 hours ago, JayGamble said:

I agree to an extent for sure, but I still think certain weapons being actively used don't entirely make sense; the micro will always bug me.

If criminals weren't using SMGs and AK47s then I would agree that police would need to limit their loadouts more. Since police get shot a lot it makes sense that they would be authorized to use lethal force and more dangerous firearms.

 

I doubt swapping the Uzi for an MP5 would solve anything here either.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Linden