Change the perma bans

[Dola]

This has probably been talked about before but I feel like every ban excluding cheating and ban evading should be a timed ban based on the severity (low, medium, high). I've seen people break the same rule and 1 gets unbanned in 2 months and the other gets unbanned after a year and another may never be unbanned. I feel like permananet bans leave uncertainty because you dont know whether you will be unbanned, as i said, in 2 months, a year or never. And sometimes, whether people want to admit it or not but it can come down to what staff member you get based on their leniancy. I feel like changing this would give transparency and fairness to all players. I know that some players change their behaviour after a ban and I know some dont but I feel like a timed ban will not only give them a set amount of time to think about their behavior but also stop them from going to other servers with the uncertainty of the perma bans which will essentially lower the player base. I know there will be comments under this thread that will mention how some people just dont deserve to come back but as i said some people change, i know this from experience. 

Some examples:

• Someone who right now could be perma banned for DM could change it to 1 month for low, 2 months for medium, 4 months for high
• Someone who right now could be perma banned for Unfair GameFile Mods could change to 1 month for low, 3 months for medium, 6 months for high
• Someone who right now could be perma banned for NRP could change to 1 month for low, 2 months for medium, 3 months for high

These are just some off the top of the head examples, they could be highered or lowered, but the main thing im getting at is the uncertainty in perma bans and that all players should be treated equally with a timed ban based on severity. 

EDIT: Instead of the pointless +1/-1 please give feedback and no arguments i beg.

Edited July 16, 2024 by Dola

[Ash]

A lot of bans are timed initially or come with precursor punishments, then at a certain point or severity it’s an indefinite ban. And pretty much all indefinite bans are appealable with chance to return depending on the appeal. The only real actual “permas” are cheaters, ban evaders and DSOers.

Or are you suggesting just add more steps before an indefinite ban?

As for the uncertainty, this is usually because at the point of an indefinite ban the players punishment history needs to be taken into consideration and the actions for the specific ban that was added, so cases are a lot different, hence they’re reviewed by senior admins+

[Dola]

15 minutes ago, Ash said:

A lot of bans are timed initially or come with precursor punishments, then at a certain point or severity it’s an indefinite ban. And pretty much all indefinite bans are appealable with chance to return depending on the appeal. The only real actual “permas” are  heaters, ban evaders and DSOers.

Or are you suggesting just add more steps before an indefinite ban?

Anybody can cook up a chat gpt appeal and I know actions speak louder than words. People write shit on an appeal and then go contradict them with their actions. So like for example something like unfair gamefile mods is ajail then perma ban. This could be changed to ajail then timed ban based on severity. Everywhere in the general rules (that isnt cheating or evading) where it says "indefinete ban" should be changed to "timed ban".

This is what it says on most rules at the end:

Anything from a warning, admin jail to an indefinite ban. 

This is what it could say:

Anything from a warning, admin jail to a timed ban based on severity (1, 2, 4 - in months).

Some punishments are more severe and they can be higher or lower then the example above. 

Gives transparency and fairness to all players.

 

Edited July 16, 2024 by Dola

[Spizor]

Just because it says indefinite ban doesn't mean that everything is indefinite. It basically means that the punishment could be anywhere from an ajail to an indefinite ban. Meaning there could be timed bans inbetween.

[Dola]

Just now, Spizor said:

Just because it says indefinite ban doesn't mean that everything is indefinite. It basically means that the punishment could be anywhere from an ajail to an indefinite ban. Meaning there could be timed bans inbetween.

Ye but "indefinite" is just too uncertain. I know people with similiar admin logs. 1 banned for knowledge of ban evaders, unbanned after 2 months. 1 banned for the same thing (different situation but still similiar cases) still banned after 14 months. 

There;s a lot of people with similiar logs that stay banned a lot longer than others.

Unless your cheating or ban evading you should be on a timed ban. 

You can still consider there past behaviour etc, but timed bans are a lot better solution imo.

I would rather be banned for a 6 month timed ban then get a perma ban in a situation where im unsure if im going to be banned for 2 months or 14+ months.

[Dola]

11 minutes ago, Spizor said:

Just because it says indefinite ban doesn't mean that everything is indefinite. It basically means that the punishment could be anywhere from an ajail to an indefinite ban. Meaning there could be timed bans inbetween.

If i got banned for something where im unsure of the length of the punishment, it would encourage me to go play other servers and make friends there and not come back to ECRP. 

If i got banned for a timed ban for lets say 4 months I would think okay, ill take a break, play other games and come back to ECRP in 4 months. 

I would know in my mind that I would be coming back in 4 months so theres no point of me changing servers and in 4 months i would be playing on ecrp again, essentially not lowering the player base.

[Quietthecutie]

-1.

I feel like the current method of having to appeal a perma ban after a period of time is good for a reason you give. some people will change their attitude and some people will not. having to demonstrate your attitude change in writing to the guy that banned you sounds like a much more secure way to stop asshole reinfection rates than your irl jtime just being up and no check on weather or not you actually learned your lesson or took on board the punishment being made.

[Dola]

1 hour ago, Quietthecutie said:

-1.

I feel like the current method of having to appeal a perma ban after a period of time is good for a reason you give. some people will change their attitude and some people will not. having to demonstrate your attitude change in writing to the guy that banned you sounds like a much more secure way to stop asshole reinfection rates than your irl jtime just being up and no check on weather or not you actually learned your lesson or took on board the punishment being made.

As I mentioned. Some staff are more lenient than others which could be a big factor in the length of your ban. That should not be a factor. 
As I mentioned, Anybody can write a good appeal and make all these promises but realistically your not going to know until you see the change in their actions in-game.

All players need is time away from the server but a timed ban can lower the chance of them changing servers or just moving on, which will not lower the player base which should be a HUGE thing to focus on. 

This could also save staff a lot of time reading and responding to appeals to focus their energy on something else like in-game reports, alt-rp requests etc.

Edited July 17, 2024 by Dola

[Bala]

I think to an extent, the suggestion is somewhat pointless. Not necessarily because it's a bad suggestion, there is just feels like a specific criteria for who is actually kept banned and I can't see it changing.

I've got a few friends that are perma-banned for different things, all of whom if they were given another chance would in my view, contribute positively to the community as they once did. At the same time, there are some individuals who were perma-banned but unfortunately were let back and even more unfortunately, there are some individuals who are not perma-banned that should be.

That said, the goal of a ban isn't just to restrict the access of a particular player, it's to send a message and set an example to everyone else not to follow in their footsteps. I think everyone will have their own idea of what offence constitutes a permanent ban and what does not, right?

[Dola]

8 hours ago, Bala said:

I think to an extent, the suggestion is somewhat pointless. Not necessarily because it's a bad suggestion, there is just feels like a specific criteria for who is actually kept banned and I can't see it changing.

I've got a few friends that are perma-banned for different things, all of whom if they were given another chance would in my view, contribute positively to the community as they once did. At the same time, there are some individuals who were perma-banned but unfortunately were let back and even more unfortunately, there are some individuals who are not perma-banned that should be.

That said, the goal of a ban isn't just to restrict the access of a particular player, it's to send a message and set an example to everyone else not to follow in their footsteps. I think everyone will have their own idea of what offence constitutes a permanent ban and what does not, right?

Ye as mentioned there is people who will change and people who wont change. 

But the people that change will change and the people that dont will get banned again.

The main point is a timed ban to prevent people from changing servers or just completely quitting from impatience of the uncertainty to the length of the ban.

[Requiem]

5 hours ago, Dola said:

Ye as mentioned there is people who will change and people who wont change. 

But the people that change will change and the people that dont will get banned again.

You made the statement yourself here that provides justification to keep the system the way it exists today. Everyone is different, both from their punishment history perspective and them as a person. If someone gets a perma ban, there is a good reason behind it, and it will be a unique situation for each person. Given that its unknown who will actually change and who won't this is why its best to give them an "undefined ban" or perma ban and then let them appeal and make a judgement call at that time if they have truly changed or not. If you just generically give someone a timed ban each time, they can just run the clock out and then come back and continue to do the same nonsense they were doing before without having to change at all. 

Given each situation is unique, we cannot just fit it to a cookie cutter timed ban system for these perma ban situations. 

[Dola]

17 minutes ago, Requiem said:

You made the statement yourself here that provides justification to keep the system the way it exists today. Everyone is different, both from their punishment history perspective and them as a person. If someone gets a perma ban, there is a good reason behind it, and it will be a unique situation for each person. Given that its unknown who will actually change and who won't this is why its best to give them an "undefined ban" or perma ban and then let them appeal and make a judgement call at that time if they have truly changed or not. If you just generically give someone a timed ban each time, they can just run the clock out and then come back and continue to do the same nonsense they were doing before without having to change at all. 

Given each situation is unique, we cannot just fit it to a cookie cutter timed ban system for these perma ban situations. 

"judgement call at that time if they have truly changed or not" - How would you know if they have changed based on writing an appeal?

[Requiem]

It's not possible to know for sure, but factors can play into it such as the amount of time they have been banned for, the circumstances and their attitude initially when getting banned, and the effort they put into their appeal. Someone that had shown some willingness to improve themselves and didn't have a terrible attitude at the time they got banned, and that has put a lot of time, effort and sincerity into their appeal is much more likely to contribute positively to the community. Now compare that to someone who argued with admins, basically asked to be banned and said they had no intention of returning and puts in an appeal that is either AI written or just says "I didn't mean to" or just makes excuses is probably not going to be likely to have changed for the better.

As I said, its a judgement call, and sometimes that works out, and sometimes not. But that filter we have with the appeal system helps at least pull out SOME of the bad weeds, whereas a timed ban would allow nearly all the bad weeds back in. 

[AnnoyingOne]

I agree that for certain punishments such as DM, NRP, whatever else which come from mistakes you might make in the moment that unless you severely fucked up, should be lesser times punishments ( Aka, you didnt mass VDM at the pier or bank or an event )

 

But, unfair game modifications was brought up as well, for that if you are caught 2nd time you should be perma banned. You cant make a mistake in the moment with game modifications, its a conscious decision that even after you were punished for it and told to remove them, you still decide to do it later.

[Dola]

2 hours ago, isBrainDed said:

I agree that for certain punishments such as DM, NRP, whatever else which come from mistakes you might make in the moment that unless you severely fucked up, should be lesser times punishments ( Aka, you didnt mass VDM at the pier or bank or an event )

 

But, unfair game modifications was brought up as well, for that if you are caught 2nd time you should be perma banned. You cant make a mistake in the moment with game modifications, its a conscious decision that even after you were punished for it and told to remove them, you still decide to do it later.

For unfair game files you could be put on a timed ban for however many months the admin sees fit. Main point is giving them hope that they could come back with timed bans. Some people get banned and are unclear if they will be back in 2 months or a year+. If 2-3 months pass and they get denied then they will be encouraged to go to other servers out of impatience and frustration. They will still serve the time admin thinks they should be banned for based on severity etc.

[Requiem]

44 minutes ago, Dola said:

For unfair game files you could be put on a timed ban for however many months the admin sees fit. Main point is giving them hope that they could come back with timed bans. Some people get banned and are unclear if they will be back in 2 months or a year+. If 2-3 months pass and they get denied then they will be encouraged to go to other servers out of impatience and frustration. They will still serve the time admin thinks they should be banned for based on severity etc.

If people get frustrated and impatient, they shouldn't have broken server rules to begin with

[Dola]

23 minutes ago, Requiem said:

If people get frustrated and impatient, they shouldn't have broken server rules to begin with

People make mistakes and learn from them. That is just a bad comment tbh to you

[Demonmit1]

The fact that people even get a chance to come back if they're caught with game modifications is wild to me. you're modifying your game to get an advantage in a RP server. go play GTA online or something... lol

once a cheater, always a cheater.

its a saying for a reason.

Edited July 18, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Zion Willard]

+1, Having more clearly defined punishments is better and fixes the problem of staff being on loa's etc to respond to appeals. Dismissing this suggestion because indefinite bans are rarely indefinite just implies you haven't read the suggestion. For those of you that like to rely on "each situation is different" as your escape route, the suggestion has tiered punishments to deal with this.

 

File mods are cringe tho, i'd agree theyre cheating.

Edited July 26, 2024 by Zion Willard

[tigerpet15]

On 7/17/2024 at 3:58 AM, Quietthecutie said:

-1.

I feel like the current method of having to appeal a perma ban after a period of time is good for a reason you give. some people will change their attitude and some people will not. having to demonstrate your attitude change in writing to the guy that banned you sounds like a much more secure way to stop asshole reinfection rates than your irl jtime just being up and no check on weather or not you actually learned your lesson or took on board the punishment being made.

Hello. I am an ex banned player (I believe twice also) with indefinite ban. I am unbanned off year and 8 months. It made me change my attitude a lot. I haven’t got anything added to my admin log for the whole time except warning for petty report. I’m trying to say I believe the system works. In my case it changed my rp from win oriented to fun/rp oriented. I don’t care if I loose if I get fun deep and high quality in return (tho its kinda sad when I don’t get that)