Change the current license suspension system

[CalvinKlein]

On 11/28/2023 at 7:27 PM, Requiem said:

All of the comments being made saying LEO's input is "dismissive" or unneeded because they are not impacted is untrue and not positive to discussion. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion; doesn't mean you have to like it or agree. 

Criminal jail time or license suspensions do in fact effect LEOs. The criminal activity that occurs on the server has a direct correlation to LEOs RP opps and response. In the same way that if we increased license suspension time to 4 OOC days, LEOs would likely sit around with nothing to do because there would be no criminal activity occurring, if the license suspension time was decreased to say 4 hours, then there would be a sharp increase in criminal activity as crims can get their cars back sooner, evade more often, etc. While you might say that this would be good for LEOs (in some ways it might be), it can also be negative. If license suspensions were dropped to a degree that LEOs were in pursuits non-stop for hours, number one it would get tiring and boring as hell, and number two it would decrease availability of police to do other tasks such as responding to 911 calls or, god forbid, respond to the impound. 

If the argument being made is "it has no impact on LEO and there is 0 downside to reducing the license suspension time", then why not just remove license suspensions all together? Why not get rid of prison altogether? Why even have LEO's? Let criminals just do what they want and have 0 consequence to their actions. Then they get to have 24/7 uptime with no OOC wait time. Hopefully you see where I am going with this. There needs to be a middle ground between the two. There has to be some consequence to criminals being caught. If you really want to perform criminal activities 24/7 with no consequence, I would recommend GTA online as a good solution. 

As I mentioned previously though, this is an IC suggestion. The reason I say that is, yes, the discussion includes OOC elements and has some OOC impact on players, but the same way that laws and jail time gets changes for your charges by the IC Government, license suspensions and suspension time is defined by the IC government. The only way you will see change here is to bring the suggestion IC. 

With the script only allowing the command in day interval , that’s somewhat ooc, so was prison cap 

[Quietthecutie]

On 11/28/2023 at 4:27 PM, Requiem said:

 

As I mentioned previously though, this is an IC suggestion. The reason I say that is, yes, the discussion includes OOC elements and has some OOC impact on players, but the same way that laws and jail time gets changes for your charges by the IC Government, license suspensions and suspension time is defined by the IC government. The only way you will see change here is to bring the suggestion IC. 

2 minutes ago, CalvinKlein said:

With the script only allowing the command in day interval , that’s somewhat ooc, so was prison cap 

Cant, and isnt IC, for reasons I have already given that you're not addressing. also what Calvin just said also bombs the IC suggestion as now its a script issue? didn't know that played a part.

[CalvinKlein]

4 hours ago, Quietthecutie said:

Cant, and isnt IC, for reasons I have already given that you're not addressing. also what Calvin just said also bombs the IC suggestion as now its a script issue? didn't know that played a part.

Yes the script only allows you to do 1 day , 2 days , 3 days, and so on, with possible intervals only being in multiples of 24 hrs

[HobGoblin]

I wouldn’t be against removing license suspensions all together. If keeping them but at a reduced time is something developers/staff would prefer then at least its better than it is now. 
 

Imo the jail should be the punishment and not stopping people from driving after they come out. 

[CalvinKlein]

1 minute ago, HobGoblin said:

I wouldn’t be against removing license suspensions all together. If keeping them but at a reduced time is something developers/staff would prefer then at least its better than it is now. 
 

Imo the jail should be the punishment and not stopping people from driving after they come out. 

big + 

big lad

 

rip the queen

[Quietthecutie]

I just think its daft to have them last an IC 24 years. if its a script issue then the playerbase shouldnt be punished for those limitations. 

[CelesNebula]

+1

[matdouglas]

On 11/28/2023 at 3:27 AM, Jett_J said:

Just have the license get removed completely every time so you have to retake the driver's test every time That way you don't have to wait 24 hours and there is still IC "punishment".

i fucking loved this idea, and it would be more fire if the license job was a faction with real players conducting it, instead of a scriptly driver license test, would be more immersive and another opportunity to RP with people, this punishment would be icly so criminals have nothin to cry about, other thing to consider, a big percentage of players are legally grinding, so we drive safe, do everything okay, would not be fair with this percentage, criminals act crazy, evade, shoot, and get all their stuff wherever they want, seems like those guys want some advantage.

 

big -1

[San Chh]

Reduce the time or remove it entirely, making it regainable after paying a certain amount of fine at Mission Row. I would suggest fines ranging from 5k-10k to get the license back from Mission Row.

[Quietthecutie]

5 hours ago, matdouglas said:

this punishment would be icly so criminals have nothin to cry about, other thing to consider, a big percentage of players are legally grinding, so we drive safe, do everything okay, would not be fair with this percentage, criminals act crazy, evade, shoot, and get all their stuff wherever they want, seems like those guys want some advantage.

 

big -1

Youre right, Criminals evade and shoot....they're criminals.

I always find it amusing when someone oocly rips into a faction for just playing their role in the city. this is like saying cops are terrible because they pull you for speeding. its not a morality thing, its certainly not an OOC thing and its an invalid argument.

[Diego_Montoya]

I agree with #3. It is a little to much. I don't think a full vehicle should get charged with evading. maybe a lesser charge like accessory to a crime. If you are are going to suspend their licenses it shouldn't be a full day. Maybe 2 hours max. 

[Cup]

Maybe a middle ground? what if charges that normally would give a suspension instead give a demerit, keep the same system where three demerits is a suspension. Max 1 demerit per arrest so you don't just end up getting it suspended every arrest anyway

[Quietthecutie]

16 minutes ago, LisaWinter said:

Maybe a middle ground? what if charges that normally would give a suspension instead give a demerit, keep the same system where three demerits is a suspension. Max 1 demerit per arrest so you don't just end up getting it suspended every arrest anyway

thats...actually a really good idea. would effectively third the current suspension time and wouldnt be a script issue then.

[PurplePlant]

+1 we just saw a reduction in jail time because of the same issue, the community wants to play the game not be punished for role-playing their role and have to spend OOC time waiting for the opportunity to effectively commit crime again and risk the same consequence. I also agree its outrageous to charge an entire vehicle of people with accessory to a crime but that's more IC and one of the main reasons the server implemented the judicial branch to hold the police accountable to their charges.

[SquirtleSquad]

50 minutes ago, PurplePlant said:

 but that's more IC and one of the main reasons the server implemented the judicial branch to hold the police accountable to their charges.

JB is not there to hold the Police accountable. That's what IA is for. JB is there to set the laws in place that the Police are expected to uphold. PD doesn't make the laws, JB/GOV does.

Reasons why all occupants are charged with Evading is basically if there was a chance to exit a vehicle, and you didn't, then why are you less accountable for evading from Officers? You had a chance to prove innocence, or to receive a lighter sentence for possession charges, but staying in the vehicle is an IC decision. Now if there was zero change to leave the vehicle, then that's up to the Officers on scene to interpret that and it's again still IC.

 

On the subject of time duration, yes the script is only in days. That would be the OOC part, the IC part is determining the duration. So the IC part needs to happen first before the OOC part can happen.

I'm all down for halving or even taking 75% of the time away, but I feel that the removal entirely makes no sense to me. There ought to be some punishment for vehicle crimes, just as there are for gun charges. What's stopping you from driving another car, outside of it not being able to be released from impound?

[Quietthecutie]

11 minutes ago, SquirtleSquad said:

just as there are for gun charges. What's stopping you from driving another car, outside of it not being able to be released from impound?

The difference is both the impound and the fact most crims have way more guns than evade-viable cars. not to mention if you get pulled over for something as small as a traffic stop youre obligated to evade or get that car impounded too. if it was a gun i could just keep it out of sight. not to mention if im without a gun i can still participate in criminal ops. if im without a vehicle in a game based around vehicles, that changes.

[SquirtleSquad]

8 minutes ago, Quietthecutie said:

The difference is both the impound and the fact most crims have way more guns than evade-viable cars. not to mention if you get pulled over for something as small as a traffic stop youre obligated to evade or get that car impounded too. if it was a gun i could just keep it out of sight. not to mention if im without a gun i can still participate in criminal ops. if im without a vehicle in a game based around vehicles, that changes.

No, I completely understand that. It is why I'm all for lowering the times, but not fully without penalty.

[PurplePlant]

32 minutes ago, SquirtleSquad said:

JB is not there to hold the Police accountable. That's what IA is for. JB is there to set the laws in place that the Police are expected to uphold. PD doesn't make the laws, JB/GOV does.

I don't mean a singular situation which would require an IA, I mean the entire court system dedicated to protecting citizens and their rights. Criminal cases are exactly this; A chance to prove innocence in the court of law because in our city the police have the right to apply charges prior to a trial (which is for the sake of time) but lead to issues with police not being checked. Now you can get charges reversed and compensation for time served.

"Facing a criminal charge is a serious and potentially life-changing situation and as such, one of the most important functions of the San Andreas Judicial Branch is that of the Superior Court of San Andreas. Citizens arrested for any misdemeanor or felony charge may petition the courts to hear their case, in which one of the Judicial Branch’s Judges will review evidence and testimony in both a professional and timely manner, evaluating legal arguments from a neutral and unbiased view so that proper justice may be upheld."

Police officers can and will make mistakes too

[SquirtleSquad]

1 hour ago, PurplePlant said:

I don't mean a singular situation which would require an IA, I mean the entire court system dedicated to protecting citizens and their rights. Criminal cases are exactly this; A chance to prove innocence in the court of law because in our city the police have the right to apply charges prior to a trial (which is for the sake of time) but lead to issues with police not being checked. Now you can get charges reversed and compensation for time served.

"Facing a criminal charge is a serious and potentially life-changing situation and as such, one of the most important functions of the San Andreas Judicial Branch is that of the Superior Court of San Andreas. Citizens arrested for any misdemeanor or felony charge may petition the courts to hear their case, in which one of the Judicial Branch’s Judges will review evidence and testimony in both a professional and timely manner, evaluating legal arguments from a neutral and unbiased view so that proper justice may be upheld."

Police officers can and will make mistakes too

Yes, they do and should absolutely be held accountable for, but you're speaking of one portion of JB, whereas it is composed of multiple areas. That was just the point of clarity I was bringing forward. The Police uphold the Law/Penal Code, JB/GOV work together to implement them after a Review Board in a sense discusses and imposes laws and ideas of.

[CalvinKlein]

8 hours ago, PurplePlant said:

I don't mean a singular situation which would require an IA, I mean the entire court system dedicated to protecting citizens and their rights. Criminal cases are exactly this; A chance to prove innocence in the court of law because in our city the police have the right to apply charges prior to a trial (which is for the sake of time) but lead to issues with police not being checked. Now you can get charges reversed and compensation for time served.

"Facing a criminal charge is a serious and potentially life-changing situation and as such, one of the most important functions of the San Andreas Judicial Branch is that of the Superior Court of San Andreas. Citizens arrested for any misdemeanor or felony charge may petition the courts to hear their case, in which one of the Judicial Branch’s Judges will review evidence and testimony in both a professional and timely manner, evaluating legal arguments from a neutral and unbiased view so that proper justice may be upheld."

Police officers can and will make mistakes too

You wait 3-4 + OOC months (at least)  for anything to do with JB, at it's current state, making it almost non-functional 

[PurplePlant]

2 minutes ago, CalvinKlein said:

You wait 3-4 + OOC months (at least)  for anything to do with JB, at it's current state, making it almost non-functional 

I understand that, but my point was that we used to not have any options for reversing crimes placed wrongly on individuals and now we do with JB regardless of time to wait it's at least an option now but isn't really the discussion here anyways was just a side point.

[CalvinKlein]

11 hours ago, LisaWinter said:

Maybe a middle ground? what if charges that normally would give a suspension instead give a demerit, keep the same system where three demerits is a suspension. Max 1 demerit per arrest so you don't just end up getting it suspended every arrest anyway

actually a big +

[alexalex303]

The issue with blanket lowering/removal is that people don't really fear the prison time / fines, especially established players. Perhaps a reasonable middle-ground is to issue it based on recidivism. 

i.e. if you get arrested once in the last 7 days, you do not get a license suspension, if you get arrested twice you get 1 day license suspension, three times 2 days and so on.

That way people that play rarely/smartly are not overly punished while serial criminals are encouraged to change their ways or receive repercussions.

[CalvinKlein]

1 hour ago, alexalex303 said:

The issue with blanket lowering/removal is that people don't really fear the prison time / fines, especially established players. Perhaps a reasonable middle-ground is to issue it based on recidivism. 

i.e. if you get arrested once in the last 7 days, you do not get a license suspension, if you get arrested twice you get 1 day license suspension, three times 2 days and so on.

That way people that play rarely/smartly are not overly punished while serial criminals are encouraged to change their ways or receive repercussions.

im with that, i avoid prison for a long while, and when I do, its not going down easy, and usually get the max time possible, being wanted, escaping, and staying on the run / low for weeks sometimes,. and I usually dont log off and stay on to do my time, to continue my RP when im out, having that 24 hour suspension sometimes can just be annoying asf specially if you wanna go use your vehicles and not be driven around / ask for a ride 

[Skengprostie]

On 12/2/2023 at 8:28 PM, alexalex303 said:

The issue with blanket lowering/removal is that people don't really fear the prison time / fines, especially established players. Perhaps a reasonable middle-ground is to issue it based on recidivism. 

i.e. if you get arrested once in the last 7 days, you do not get a license suspension, if you get arrested twice you get 1 day license suspension, three times 2 days and so on.

That way people that play rarely/smartly are not overly punished while serial criminals are encouraged to change their ways or receive repercussions.

this is the shittest idea I've ever seen, lowering the time to 6 hours is still gonna piss the player off enough because realistically they're not gonna wanna drive again for the rest of that day, the only problem with 24 hours is that it would not only fuck over that players day he got arrested but also the day after where it just became a 2 day punishment and way too long. 

having the idea of just scaling the fuck out of the peoples license suspension dependant on how many days ago they last got arrested for it is just gonna result in people just never having a license especially because of how easy it is for a cop to find some reason to give someone reckless "aka driving through an unsynced traffic light (which we all got abused for until D6 disbanded)" which will just create another game mechanic cops can abuse as well as nerfing the amount of RP crims will want to do which is especially bad in a server with a declining crim population.