PD ARMOR NERF / TWEAKS

[alexalex303]

2 minutes ago, ShawnsBeard said:

@alexalex303 just a quick question because I'm a little confused with your responses... Are you saying that there isn't a problem with a motionless police officer on their knees taking 3 pump shots and 8~ .50 shots to the face before being injured, let alone fully killed?

I'm saying that if you choose to say there's a problem with that on the basis of realism, there are 101 other things that should also change, but aren't talked about. For example, realistically, if you use your car to commit a serious crime (such as bank robbery), that car should be permanently seized upon you being charged.

[Requiem]

36 minutes ago, SkyeFuryy said:

Because it shouldn't take 3 shotgun rounds and two other people with .50's to bring down a single person at point blank. It's not realistic therefore it creates a huge disadvantage that should not exist. 

I agree. But the suggestion should not be "nerf PD armor" then. it should be modify the way headshots are registered. There is a big difference. 

 

28 minutes ago, pasha9 said:

PVP is a part of the game. and we never said "nerf PD so we can smoke them every day" its not like we're gonna be the ones chasing LEOs around and killing them after they get nerfed. its just not realistic to pump someone in the face 3 times and he still runs around like nothing happened.

Not true because at times this is already happening. There are certain times of the day where LEOs are being hunted down in some situations. 

10 minutes ago, ShawnsBeard said:

@alexalex303 just a quick question because I'm a little confused with your responses... Are you saying that there isn't a problem with a motionless police officer on their knees taking 3 pump shots and 8~ .50 shots to the face before being injured, let alone fully killed?

See above. The suggestion shouldn't be about armor if that's your issue, it should be about how damage registers at certain distances and in different hitboxes. 

[Victor Einhart]

My question for you guys is: why should police officers be easier to kill?

Edited February 3, 2023 by Victor Einhart

[pasha9]

6 minutes ago, Bill Breacher said:

Not true because at times this is already happening. There are certain times of the day where LEOs are being hunted down in some situations. 

last time this thing happened was 3 years ago and it didn't end well for them 
 

 

[bulbasaur420]

7 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

In regards to the fact that you pay for the armor, that is because you own the armor. The fact of the matter is that as a criminal you can do whatever you want to do with your assets. The car that you drive will more often than not appreciate in value tremendously (see Hakuchou Drag, Comet Retro), the interiors that you own can quite literally turn into a money printer, the weapons that you own can be re-sold for profit or used to rob others for their assets. Contrast that to what can a cop do with his assets? He can't even pull it out whenever he feels like, because there's an in-character rule telling him when he's allowed to do so.

That is why you pay for the armor and he gets it for free.

The notion that law enforcement has a huge advantage in terms of weapon selection has not been true for years. If we're talking about the new player that just scored a .50 at x10 the cost from a player that made profit selling his asset, sure, they will have an advantage over him. However, this thread is populated by extremely old players that have, and have used way better weapons than what law enforcement has available to them.

A good number of people in this thread should remember how very recently 3-5 special carbines with full attachments were used to wipe law enforcement, and their armor didn't seem to help very much. Pretty much everyone in this thread should acknowledge the machine pistol, and how it quite literally melts anything in front of it, a criminal-roleplay exclusive weapon.

The only tangible weapon that criminals do not regularly have access to is a sniper rifle, and even several of those were sold to criminal roleplayers. I think it's time to put to rest the notion that you are out-armed by law enforcement.

I mean just because we have had access to some selective weaponry does not mean we have an advantage.  I don't think you realize that those weapons are often more expensive than any other guns on the market that you can regularly get.  Sure when the weapons were sold some people used them for a little bit. You act like we have access to super op weapons at all times and its not an issue. When quite literally those are rare weapons that most people dont even use that much. Not to mention the other persons comment about pd already having the mk2 weapons. so if this comment is true, not only does pd have insane armor they have insane guns now. If 3-5 people are wiping pd with an automatic gun sounds about right if they are hitting headshots. Realistically one headshot should kill someone, I get there is to be balance. However allowing pd to tank 15 headshots or whatever crazy number it is, honestly just ruins the immersion. Especially in hostage situations a pd officer half the time isnt even scared because they know how many headshots they can take and still live, on top of us having to wait for the anim of them falling down to then actually execute them. The armor doesnt help pd sometimes because they get hit with a higher force than them and simply they can place better shots. I mean no disrespect but pd isnt exactly the best of shots, which is why they still want the armor. If pd had to play on an even playing field as us, to be frank im not sure they could handle it. The armor is a deterent to keep people from just shooting cops as well as more so a handicap for pd. I feel that in a realistic rp server we shouldnt have 200 robocops that can tank a bunch of headshots. On about 90 percent of the scenes pd have an overwhelming force of weaponry and armor. pd will come at you with carbines, 200ap, marksman rifles, helicopters, the whole lot for even a minor thing. How can even low criminals stand a chance if pd is showing up 200 apd out with auto carbines and marksman rifles that will literally melt anyone in their path on top of being able to stay alive twice as long if not more.  They even show up with this force to a simple store robbery, a bank or something else sure. Have heard quite a bit of cops say this before too "man that was my first time dying in a year" or something along those lines. Should that not indicate how off the balance is?

[ShawnsBeard]

9 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

I'm saying that if you choose to say there's a problem with that on the basis of realism, there are 101 other things that should also change, but aren't talked about. For example, realistically, if you use your car to commit a serious crime (such as bank robbery), that car should be permanently seized upon you being charged.

I don't think a single person here has argued for hyper realism.  We just don't want to have to spend 5 straight seconds of 3 people constantly shooting a single individual in the head a total of 15 times to kill them.  If I wanted to think of 100 strawman arguments to try and counter every suggestion you make I could do that too, but at the end of the day this is a video game and what is actively being discussed is how it is at an obnoxiously ridiculous level.  100AP should be the max level of armor for anybody.

Hell, if I wanted to go buy military grade armor IRL legally I literally could, and yet those on the server with access to the black market can't even match what the local police department has access to.

[Akio]

I mean in the video of me being seen getting killed there's multiple factors in play. Yes I have 150AP armour, I also had complete health but the biggest factor was the hit box. Me being on my knees registers my head as around the hip/knee area. Looking at a video from 2 days before when I was kidnapped by the same people, .50 shots around 4 were able to get my health very low and I was only in the /up WITH 150AP armour. I've seen the same amount of shots take the same for a crim with no armour. This shows the hit boxes which as we all know matters greatly, not necessarily the armour is at fault. 

 

Yes the armour has always been questioned but why should crims be able to kill cops in 1 shot? Cops are consistently in shoot outs and despite the banter of saying "it's a skill issue" we do die a lot. Personally I die on a fairly good basis despite the armour, the guns and whatever else, the same for many other officers who may be in 200AP (rarely used). 

 

Another question this brings up is, why can a pair of 2 crims easily kill a cop with 150AP armour, but then yet another set can't? Different tactics can build to show a higher level of chance. 

[Osborn]

I welcome anyone to join SD (or PD) and you'll see that the 200 AP armor is rarely used (You can even take a ride-along on an alt! ). The only ones who can use it are tactical elements, GFU (at least in SD) uses 100 AP armor, and SED can use 200 AP armor but even then, that armor floats over their uniforms, it's ugly and not aesthetically pleasing. 

I must say in general, I am not a difficult person to work with. I've focused, when I lead PD, and now that I lead SD, to change policies in the fairness of criminal RP. But my decisions are based on logic, if something to me is too unrealistic, I cannot find myself implementing that in a policy.

After playing 30+ hours/week for the past few months, I can safely say that there are a lot of situations that PD/SD loses on a daily, whether it's majority wipe, initial unit responding dying, or just criminals outsmarting us - but yes, there are a lot of situations that PD/SD will win as well, mostly when they either outnumber the criminals from the get-go, or the criminals stay in the area long enough for backup to arrive. 

PD/SD is reactive to the environment created by others. SD, for example, has recently been talking (In Character and Out of Character) to enforce the policy that disallows heavies from being carried on the back, which was an exemption implemented because of the IC environment back when SD was created, but we've found ourselves unable to re-enforce that policy simply because of how the IC environment is. 

I must say that personally, I do not agree with giving a patrol officer less armor than what's available to the average criminal, especially with the upcoming changes to weapons, bullets, and the implementation of armor plates to allow criminals to refill their armor. I think that you need to look at the grand picture rather than looking at it from the perspective of personal situations; most of the time (now this might be hard to realize if you've never been in SD/PD or had a ridealong), as a regular patrol officer, you're going to outnumbered in most situations, which in itself is already bad, and to make them easier targets than they already are, makes no sense to me.

Players with issues of cops rushing into the center of situations, I remind you that Fear RP applies to cops just as much as it does to anyone else. In fact, we hold cops to higher standards (for some reason) when it comes to Fear RP, you won't (shouldn't) for example find a single unit enter a violent area such as Braddocks alone, as they have been told it's Fear RP. This is an example of something that is only enforced on cops.

That's all I have to say! 

Happy Friday!




 

[sNo0BbZz]

I think the big issue here is why the fuck does a GFU member have access to 150 AP. I hate that 150 AP exists but at least restrict it to SWAT and SED, why does GFU have access to it lmao.

[Akio]

@sNo0BbZz  For this videos proof. It's no surprise GND are hated by most criminals but I actively find myself being shot at a lot for just "being GND". We are dealing with gang members all the time and normally are the first ones to get shot... so tell me, why does Metro and SED need 150AP when they join the fight later and GND less when they're normally actively shot at first? I have numerous videos of myself being shot at and no one on scene at that time for "just being GND". 

[Freyster]

I'm already sorry for my wording but..

Are you serious? You expect us to leave what's actually important and focus on nerfing armors on PD/SD when the last 3 weeks prove it doesn't matter how much armor you have if you are doing a proper setup? Do you really think it's okay to randomly shoot people out of burgershot with 7 people after a store robbery and lose the fight and then complain in /b about how OP PD is? That's ludicrous! If you want to have proper fights, do a good setup, have a proper structure in how to engage into a shootout and not just start blasting after getting pulled over. Remember when it comes to the cops against robber tactics, you can try around to find a good strategy to fight them - the issues lie on different things rather than the armor, like the jail times being way too long! So why are we complaining about armor when we could have more fun with half the jail time? I don't understand why everyone keeps calling PD OP when PD and SD have been clapped multiple times over the last few weeks! The only ones who lose and complain are usually the ones who shoot without a proper setup and just shoot for fun, also BIG PROPS TO DIV6 FOR THE FUN FIGHTS WE HAD, THEY MANAGED TO CLAP MORE THAN 10+ OFFICERS ONCE IN A WHILE AND NO WHINING WAS DONE ON ANY SIDE, IT ALL WAS FAIR PLAY AND FUN.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Freyster

[Clank]

3 hours ago, Osborn said:

In fact, we hold cops to higher standards (for some reason) when it comes to Fear RP, you won't (shouldn't) for example find a single unit enter a violent area such as Braddocks alone, as they have been told it's Fear RP. This is an example of something that is only enforced on cops.

I never really thought about it like this, interesting.

[Bala]

8 hours ago, SkyeFuryy said:

There is a rule on the server for this called FearRP, so this is not an issue on debate here. 

I hope that wasn't an attempt to be condescending. 
Like a number of rules on the server, they're open to interpretation, both by players and staff, occasionally with mixed results.

My point and in fact, my post in general was putting across the idea that if we changed the police armor, then inevitably it would change police behaviour.

With less armour, they would be more inclined to take preventative measures to avoid death but there are not the preventative measures that you or any of the criminals in this suggestion are hoping for. It'll get MORE sweaty dealing with cops, not less.

8 hours ago, SkyeFuryy said:

This is the issue. Cops already have the advantage, they have unlimited ressources not being capped actively. This discussion is to bring the "playing field" to a more fair and even one. PD/SD will always have the advantage due to their script. Criminals have to financially balance their ressources. So bringing the armor to a realistic or lower standard will not have any perverse effect on your risk factor. It may however make cops think twice about being the "hero cop" which if you think about it, will lower the amount of shootouts happening. And if you feel this will give criminals too much of an advantage, I think the W attitude needs to change. You win some, you lose some. 

I can understand why you might think having an even playing field is a good idea, in reality it's a terrible idea. If I'm a cop and you are a crim, I cannot do anything to you until you do something. In most circumstances, I can't fire on you until you fire on me. That gives you the advantage. I can't deploy a heavy weapon without existing reason to do so, you can use whatever you want. That gives you the advantage.

While I'm sure it would be a lovely idea for everyone to play to the benefit of the roleplay, this was not, is not and will not be the server where people don't put the win first. That's just how it is and there's no point pretending it's not. Get the win with as much roleplay involved as possible, that's the goal.

If we nerf PD armor, then PD will find a way of compensating for that vulnerability and I'm telling you, the same people complaining in this thread will make another thread complaining about those methods. 

This won't solve your problems, it'll just make more of them.

[Antonio_Colombo]

The most simple way to balance things out, imho, is if police gets strict budget from TAXES of citizens who pay them. Simply put, everyone who pays taxes contributes to city budget, then this budget gets ICly distributed among law enforcement agencies, medics, firefighters, road workers etc. It could be done once per month, where X amount of taxed money (each month it recalculate based on how much actual tax is paid) and after that, lets say for sake of example, every armor or car cop spawns, takes some summ off this arbitrary budget, and leaders have to use this budget wise so that at the end of the month cops hasn't wasted all their budget on silly stuff like 10 units on a guy who drives 81mph in city and carries illegal .50 in glove box. 

This tax money, if wasted before next month beginning, will stay on cops leading parties fault that they couldn't control their monetary funds well enough. This way situation would balance out, thus cops would not spend stupid amount of resources on crimes they shouldn't be spending. This would balance a lot. I know it would require a lot of dev work, but in the end everyone (except some cops) will be a winners in this. Please tell me good reasons why such system cannot be implemented? (besides dev work, but let's not take this in consideration, considering amount of dev work already put into updates we have so far....) 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Antonio_Colombo

[surg3yy]

On 2/3/2023 at 5:27 AM, alexalex303 said:

In regards to the fact that you pay for the armor, that is because you own the armor. The fact of the matter is that as a criminal you can do whatever you want to do with your assets. The car that you drive will more often than not appreciate in value tremendously (see Hakuchou Drag, Comet Retro), the interiors that you own can quite literally turn into a money printer, the weapons that you own can be re-sold for profit or used to rob others for their assets. Contrast that to what can a cop do with his assets? He can't even pull it out whenever he feels like, because there's an in-character rule telling him when he's allowed to do so.

That is why you pay for the armor and he gets it for free.

The notion that law enforcement has a huge advantage in terms of weapon selection has not been true for years. If we're talking about the new player that just scored a .50 at x10 the cost from a player that made profit selling his asset, sure, they will have an advantage over him. However, this thread is populated by extremely old players that have, and have used way better weapons than what law enforcement has available to them.

A good number of people in this thread should remember how very recently 3-5 special carbines with full attachments were used to wipe law enforcement, and their armor didn't seem to help very much. Pretty much everyone in this thread should acknowledge the machine pistol, and how it quite literally melts anything in front of it, a criminal-roleplay exclusive weapon.

The only tangible weapon that criminals do not regularly have access to is a sniper rifle, and even several of those were sold to criminal roleplayers. I think it's time to put to rest the notion that you are out-armed by law enforcement.

All im going to say is maybe 10% of crims have the weapons you are talking about and almost all of them are in the same 2 gangs who fight together . But I’m sure you forgot to take that in count