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Kill Yourself - An ECRP Discussion

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Preamble

A while back, I made a discussion regarding the use of racism and homophobic language in roleplay and how using those kinds of terms might effect someone on an out of character level. Naturally, there was somewhat of a mixed opinion. Most seemed supportive and in the end the staff team were also supportive, some were against what they perceived to be unnecessary censorship and some simply thought in was a non-issue, in part due to their own beliefs about racism or homosexuality.

In an ideal world, what you say on a video game wouldn't have an impact on someone on an out of character level. In an ideal server, people wouldn't use slurs as a method of getting a reaction from someone out of character but we have to deal with the practicalities of the situation, not the ideals.

The Discussion Point

Now, putting aside racism and homophobia, I'd like to talk about the thread title "kill yourself". I was personally involved in a role-play recently with an individual who will remain nameless but in the course of their roleplay, on a number of occasions, told someone else involved in the roleplay to kill themselves. This was, naturally, in-character so there wasn't a violation of any out of character laws. The context was a simple arrest, where a weapon was found in the glove box. Yet this individual felt it was appropriate to get very angry and tell someone to go and kill themselves. 

To be clear, this is not the first instance of this happening, nor the first time that this individual has told someone to kill themselves. One of the other times, the individual told the other person verbatim, "kill yourself IRL". Now while this was done in an in-character method of speaking, that obviously crosses the line because how can a character living in their own reality tell someone to kill themselves in real life if they're remaining in-character?

This might not provoke the same reaction as homophobia or racism or transphobia might for example but the same thinking applies. Suicide is a very real thing, especially for people between 18-35 which would be our core player-base. In my experience on Eclipse, I've met a lot of people who have had various different problems with mental health such as suicidal thoughts, depression, anxiety and even in some cases, self-harm. 

Why?

Eclipse and gaming in general is to those people and in fact, pretty much everyone, intended to be a getaway from whatever it is they've got going on in their real life. That might be a stressful job, it might be problems with their relationships or they have low self-esteem or any number of scenarios. I don't want to come across as a care bear or discourage players on this server from being more realistic with what their characters say but to be honest with you, I think that it's important that communities like Eclipse are some what of a haven and a reasonably positive experience for everyone. No one is getting their feelings hurt if they cannot tell someone to kill themselves but if you are in those negative headspaces, hearing stuff like that can have a very real and legitimate effect on you.

I've had mental health problems in my teenage years and even in my twenties. Bouts of depression and even still to this day, I have periods of social anxiety that limit the experiences that I have had in my life. I'm not ashamed of that fact and don't mind telling a community of people that I've had that but having gone through those kinds of things, gives you a real sense of empathy and understanding for those people that feel the same or have it worse. I've never wanted to self-harm but I've been friends with people that have done just that and even attempted to take their own lives. I'm aware through discussions from players here that they have had their own experiences with suicide in their personal lives as well so, for me, I think it's important to raise the issue surrounding this.

TLDR

Long story short, I think that telling someone to kill themselves or using things to that effect should have the same classification in the rules as the racism and homophobic amendments we made earlier in the year and be classified as disgusting roleplay as part of IC and OOC Interactions, because like with homophobia and racism, these can negatively impact people on an out of character level.

I welcome counter arguments as well as support on this matter, but for all our sakes, keep it respectful so no one ends up getting themselves banned. 

Edited by Bala
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You could look at it that way or you could look at it like the community was far too lenient on some people abusing in character chat for a reaction out of character.
You could also look at it like some people in the community may abuse "free speech", thinking that it entitles them to say anything, without any repercussions. 
You could also look at it like telling someone to kill themselves without any reason or connecting roleplay is a easy, poor standard of roleplay.

I think you missed the point. If you use these kind of phrases so flippantly, especially to someone in a poor headspace, then they can be hurtful. There's no way of knowing what kind of a headspace someone is in.
If I was thinking about killing myself or in a really dark place mentally and a stranger tells me even in a video game to kill myself, maybe that's the difference maker and I go do something, maybe it's just another notch on the wrist or maybe just maybe it's another shit roleplay experience because telling someone to kill themselves in a roleplay server for no reason fulfils that need to be edgy. The same way calling someone the N word or calling someone a f****t does.

Edited by Bala
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This is a server with high standards for RP, and that should carry into not only our actions but our words as well. This falls under OOC Toxicity and should be in the rules as such.

Telling people comments that carry OOC weight should be held to the same standards as our RP. For those thinking we are getting "soft" because you can't use homophobic, or racist slurs or that you can't call people OOC toxic comments? I think you can have the self-control to keep these comments to yourself or face the consequences.

You signed up to abide by good RP standards and rules, always striving for a healthy and strong community. We should rule actions and comments on the same level. 

For those who feel things are getting soft, well, then get permission first. At the end of the day, ECRP should be a healthy community. We have rules in such for this. Adding on these toxic comments into what would already be ruled to most as toxic just makes us stronger as a whole.

 

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I completely agree with your opinion for a few reasons. Although I do agree that this language can and will affect others on an out-of-character level, and that often times individuals use this language in-character to get a rise out of someone out-of-character, the most convincing argument that I can make for this is how lacking of immersion this language is.

Much of the language used in the community (often in text chat) comes off as unrealistic entirely and demonstrates poor roleplay standards. There are countless instances where I am roleplaying my character and endlessly faced with language which makes me feel like I'm playing in a CS:GO lobby. Whether it be hearing "get clapped retard" after a shootout, or even common mixing such as players saying that certain groups are "driving people out of the city", it's clear that many players use niche gamer language in-character incessantly, creating what is, in my opinion, an incredibly demotivating roleplay experience. I enjoy roleplaying with characters who I feel interact with the world as real people, but the unfortunate fact is that I'm often demotivated to roleplay with players that I do not know, as they are often bad roleplay experiences due to this. 

Whether it be the lack of ability to roleplay a character who interacts with the world as one would in real life, or the prior inability to interact with people in real life, many characters which I interact with on a day-to-day basis do not reciprocate realistic vocabulary in their roleplay. I'm not advocating for players to in some way be penalized for using unrealistic language in roleplay, but I believe what you are suggesting is powerful in targeting particularly harmful unrealistic language, and for that reason is entirely justified.

As for those arguments that the server is going "too soft", I agree. The server is not nearly hard enough on the roleplay standards of countless players with no regards for high-quality roleplay. One of the reasons I have been so secluded to singular communities in my roleplay is that I find most factions currently have not a care in the world for using realistic language in their roleplay, and often create environments which encourage highly unrealistic and often times toxic gamer language in-character.

Thank you for this thread, Dezzy!

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58 minutes ago, tuffy said:

ngl i feel like the gaming community as a whole is just getting way too soft, these are just words they arent hurtful unless you make them

Hello! While I understand calling people retards and telling them to kill themselves might be funny to you, but we are not in a MW2 match 13 years ago. I also understand that some people do not have any empathy for others, therefor those words just slide out in normal conversation. It offends some people and can make them feel much worse. Just because I don't want to be told to "kill yourself, retard" doesn't mean that I am soft, it just feels icky.

 

Now some people can't wrap their head around that fact, and it sucks to others that don't want to hear kind of language and demeanor being slung around like a "hello". At the end of a day, most people choose to play a server like this to relax. It's laid back and enjoyable. If I wanted to get screamed at by people with ear-rapey mics, I would go play Rust or CS:GO, where truly, most of the people that act this way belong. 

 

Be nice, it's not that hard. This doesn't mean to entirely exclude all emotions or ways to "beef". If you can't be mean ICly to people without screaming slurs or telling them to kill themselves, maybe just disable VOIP or find another avenue to pursue that wish.

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I don't want this to come across as people shouldn't insult people at all. As an example, if someone wants to call me a cunt or a motherfucker in-character, by all means. If I'm roleplaying as a cop and I'm arresting you, I'm not expecting you to be sunshine and rainbows. Hell to be honest, if you called me a cunt via PMs, I probably would still let that go.

There is a line though and actually I think it's a pretty visible line. Calling someone the N word is jarring. Calling someone a f****t is jarring. Telling someone to kill themselves is jarring. Calling someone a trap because their voice doesn't sound feminine is jarring.

Calling someone a motherfucker or a dickhead or whatever, generic insults isn't jarring.

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This hits hard for me, I really do not like when people speak to other in such a way, I have been in similar situations before where people are extremely belligerent when they don't get their way. Language like this really doesn't sit well with me. 

I would love language like this be against the server rules. On the case of "racism and homophobia" I suppose it can be dealt with IC, but ultimately I don't like any language like this, as it has 0 positive effect on a community and there is no reason for it to be used.

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Your trying to put more rules in place of what we can and cant say in a video game. There is enough censorship and soft people in place already so its a no from me. If someone says "kill yourself IRL" than clearly that should be reported. But please no more censorship thanks 

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I don't really care if the phrase gets banned or not but with the community we have it is essentially a part of some peoples' vocabulary and they will say it even if it's a "slip up". It'll just lead to more forum reports and admin punishments and bans because that's how people get back at people they don't like on the server. I've been around long enough to see how much anger people use when talking to "rival" community members in-game and telling someone to off themselves is almost standard.

To add-on:

If we lived in a perfect world where we could pick and choose the people who we have play the server I would be all for getting rid of the players that constantly mix and use "CSGO" language like mentioned before but that's not the case and a major portion of our active player base does do this and in my opinion the player base isn't strong enough to start cutting these players off for using "gamer language"

 

Edited by Jett_J
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IC is IC and OOC is OOC. If someone gets IRL "offended" by such phrases or racial slurs, or gender count slurs, etc etc, it just basically means that player is metagaming, taking IC information into OOC matters. However, the minute verbal abuse starts on OOC level, it is a whole different situation and should be dealt with accordingly.

People nowadays get offended by literally anything that they do not agree, instead of taking matters in their own hands and dealing accordingly, but that might just be my personal opinion.

On the matter: I don't think there is a need to censure any bad words or phrases, as this  is

a) A 17+  game, which means that no minor legally is allowed to play there, thus players are legally allowed to be exposed to matters that are otherwise not advisable to minors, such as violence, substances abuse, prostitution, public urination, human cannibalism etc... Rockstar itself kindly warns about all of the possible exposure that players can experience when they play the game, and they are agreeing to that risk by... continuing to play it.

b) at age of 18 most people are mature enough to distinct the difference between video game and reality, it is not players duty to check on every encounter with strangers that they are at full mental health, it is just impossible to track!

c) as the situations include people, living and unpredictable beings, it is not always possible to rectify who is in fault and who is "offended", thus I don't see how it can be enforced clearly, without any biases and so on. + enforcing these rules will cause a lot of "troll reports" which will waste even more of the valuable administration time, effectively slowing down forums work to even worse lengths of response time... 

P. S. Speaking about game not community as whole, because it is whole different story what can be seen in game and forums, for example. 

Just my honest opinion on the matter.

 

Edited by Antonio_Colombo
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There is a big difference between telling someone to kill themselves ironically and unironically, for example if you're with a group of friends you should be able to tell them that in a joking manner like "haha bro kys" but if you're roleplaying with a party you may not know and you are telling them to unalive themselves in a serious manner for example: While you're getting arrested by cops or robbed by a rival gang, while yes it might be IC in my opinion it's clearly a OOC insult, the same goes with calling people the r, f and other slurs and also asking them "do you ever leave the city" or "do you even have a life outside of the city".

 

Overall though Bala has a good point and as he is one of the most based people on Eclipse with all his suggestions being positive, and I believe there should be a rule against genuinely making fun of people in a serious manner that may affect them OOCly, at the end of the day its a game and everyone is here for different reasons, some people might just play to enjoy their free time and other people may play to avoid IRL problems, not add to them. But there should always be room for people that are friends to have some fun banter and laughs.

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These things of it being "censorship" or that individuals should be 18 and be able to handle it are false.

On the subject of age, you know full well that while it's an 18 rated game, we have a significant amount of people under that age in this community. Short of checking peoples real life information there would be absolutely no way to check if a person was legally an adult or not. But even then, a person could be 18.. 19.. 24.. 28 etc.. and be emotionally immature. They might just naturally have a sensitive disposition. They might have mental health issues of their own. It might just be that in some cases, they don't want to interact with people abusing VOIP to try and disgust them into an OOC reaction.

On the subject of censorship, if someone can provide me a legitimate way in which not being able to tell someone to end their life ruins their roleplay then I'll ask for the thread to be closed. It was the same argument with not being able to say the N word or use homophobic language. The English language is vast. If "kill yourself" is a default response then that says more about you as a role-player than the 'snowflake' that we're supposedly protecting.

How it is enforced is real simple, you just don't fucking say it and if you feel that that it's important to the roleplay for you to say it, then drop in a /b, "you okay with me telling you to kys?" or "Is it alright for me to tell you to kill yourself?" - You might that's impractical but if it's an important part of the RP where you just have to say it, then you'll make the time to ask right?

Eclipse is a privately owned GTA-based roleplaying community. There is no outside guidance that we have to operate by, it's simply a set of rules dictated by the staff team and compliance of those rules is essential for your continued inclusion in the community. There is no censorship of a right to say what you want because you simply don't have the right to say what you want. Free speech is not a thing in that sense and there are certain things that you cannot say.

While GTA has an ESRB rating of 17+, the community has more of a Teen rating. 

  • Rated 17+ would be Games with this rating contain content that is suitable for ages 17 and over. May contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and strong language.
  • Teen rating would be Games with this rating contain content that is suitable for ages 13 and over. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, and the infrequent use of strong language.

We don't allow gross roleplay and we don't allow disgusting roleplay by design, so lets put that adult game bit to bed.

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this is again one of those cases where " it depends 
nobody in here is stupid.... and we all know, when someone is actualy really angry, 
or if someone is abusing RP to be able to cross others personal boundary's articulating hes personal statement.

no matter how well you could make up some rules, 
people wil always find a way to bend that in order to bully.

it really comes down to "dont take it personaly" but one day your not like the other and sometimes it hits you differently.
one day you think "my god who had hurt you before ?" the other " fuck this shit i had enough" 
its an emotional thing...

and social inadequacy is a universal issue. people cant communicate their boundary's  asertive enough or communicate their needs.
resulting in anger, sadness and all other emotions, for not being expressed propperly.

now... what can you do ? not much..
put a banner up everytime before you log in, WARNING for vocabulair danger, and to BE AWARE that this is RP not real life, do not take it personal.
and maybe, it wouldnt be bad to put up a code word (( only in highly disfuncional situations)) where emotions ARE running out of hand.
so the RP get pauzed for max 30 seconds. 'but that might be abused" so there can be sayd what has to be sayd.
 

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2 minutes ago, Ritchie Stones said:

this is again one of those cases where " it depends 
nobody in here is stupid.... and we all know, when someone is actualy really angry, 
or if someone is abusing RP to be able to cross others personal boundary's articulating hes personal statement.

no matter how well you could make up some rules, 
people wil always find a way to bend that in order to bully.

it really comes down to "dont take it personaly" but one day your not like the other and sometimes it hits you differently.
one day you think "my god who had hurt you before ?" the other " fuck this shit i had enough" 
its an emotional thing...

and social inadequacy is a universal issue. people cant communicate their boundary's  asertive enough or communicate their needs.
resulting in anger, sadness and all other emotions, for not being expressed propperly.

now... what can you do ? not much..
put a banner up everytime before you log in, WARNING for vocabulair danger, and to BE AWARE that this is RP not real life, do not take it personal.
and maybe, it wouldnt be bad to put up a code word (( only in highly disfuncional situations)) where emotions ARE running out of hand.
so the RP get pauzed for max 30 seconds. 'but that might be abused" so there can be sayd what has to be sayd.
 

Brilliantly as it is, I was about to suggest something along the lines of what You said. At points it feels like Don Quixote fight with windmills, where we patch problem result and not the root cause, and by that I mean censorshiping some phrases or slurs. It will just stop people using those banned slurs, but not their behaviour, for example, group of people can agree to  call "f@g0t$" as cucumbers, then what, we ban word "cucumber" ? It might sound silly, but in my believe, it is the tone of how you say it rather than text itself that leaves the impact. I in no way encourage harassing others or being mean, but exactly as you said, it is not real life, so not only people come here to "chill" after their hard life ( I bet many of us has our own everyday struggles and battles that we think of as something that is unbearable for others), but they also express themselves in a ways that are not fit in real life, and if someone loses all his gunpowder in game rather than in streets beating or killing someone, then I am all in for that.

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i remember doing a real life RP situation in a jail to break free.
and the guards could really act well in a way they could be very intimidating and even get physical,
there where situations where you even doubt if this was actualy still the plan of the RP going this way.

so they put up a word that, aswell the guards and aswell the players. could use, for when things got to anxious or to intimidating for both party's.
that group would be taken appart for a very split second saying " we are stil in RP mode" and it is still safe to continue for both of us"

turning around and keep going. 
i even went back a second time months later and the guards remembered me...... it was still scary

maybe we need a codeword. to just slightly interupt the RP saying quickly
" hey i feel uncomfortable, please let me know if we are safe to resume the RP knowing it is not going to personal"

OR a small button somewhere on the side of the screen, automaticlty notifying the opposite player "without words"
that the person is being affected personaly.
(( ofcourse hoping that this wont be abused to silence or holding back another player from their RP.
so sanctions shoud be given towards that abuse

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7 hours ago, Shadyar8023 said:

+1 telling someone to go and kill themselves even in-character can effect them negatively in outside world, because some people live in a hard line of life, they are just here for fun.

this is just cap I am black and I have been playing video games for years ive had the worse insult/slurs thown at me and it doesnt make me a difference because im not soft and i feed off of negativity if someone calls me a dumb black im just going to fire back at him

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2 hours ago, Bala said:

These things of it being "censorship" or that individuals should be 18 and be able to handle it are false.

On the subject of age, you know full well that while it's an 18 rated game, we have a significant amount of people under that age in this community. Short of checking peoples real life information there would be absolutely no way to check if a person was legally an adult or not. But even then, a person could be 18.. 19.. 24.. 28 etc.. and be emotionally immature. They might just naturally have a sensitive disposition. They might have mental health issues of their own. It might just be that in some cases, they don't want to interact with people abusing VOIP to try and disgust them into an OOC reaction.

On the subject of censorship, if someone can provide me a legitimate way in which not being able to tell someone to end their life ruins their roleplay then I'll ask for the thread to be closed. It was the same argument with not being able to say the N word or use homophobic language. The English language is vast. If "kill yourself" is a default response then that says more about you as a role-player than the 'snowflake' that we're supposedly protecting.

How it is enforced is real simple, you just don't fucking say it and if you feel that that it's important to the roleplay for you to say it, then drop in a /b, "you okay with me telling you to kys?" or "Is it alright for me to tell you to kill yourself?" - You might that's impractical but if it's an important part of the RP where you just have to say it, then you'll make the time to ask right?

Eclipse is a privately owned GTA-based roleplaying community. There is no outside guidance that we have to operate by, it's simply a set of rules dictated by the staff team and compliance of those rules is essential for your continued inclusion in the community. There is no censorship of a right to say what you want because you simply don't have the right to say what you want. Free speech is not a thing in that sense and there are certain things that you cannot say.

While GTA has an ESRB rating of 17+, the community has more of a Teen rating. 

  • Rated 17+ would be Games with this rating contain content that is suitable for ages 17 and over. May contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and strong language.
  • Teen rating would be Games with this rating contain content that is suitable for ages 13 and over. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, and the infrequent use of strong language.

We don't allow gross roleplay and we don't allow disgusting roleplay by design, so lets put that adult game bit to bed.

If someone is so mentally unstable that they can't handle a 14 year old insulting them online, they honestly shouldn't be playing online games at all. People need to realise that people say things that aren't right online, and that's simply just how it is. someone saying "kys" doesn't genuinely mean that you want them to kill themselves, just how if your mate says something, and you might jokingly say "I hate you" it doesn't genuinely mean that you hate them. Especially coming into an RP community, you should have some sort of freedom as to what you want to roleplay as (of course with some boundaries). The phrase "kys" is just a response someone will say to some form of shit talk, don't dish it if you can't take it, simple as. Using the excuse of "there are alot of people under 18 who play this server" is also a very pointless argument, as in my opinion the younger members of this community are more toxic than the older ones. 

 

EDIT: 

I personally think instead of banning words, it should all depend on context, for example if me and someone else are joking around, they say something that is stupidly funny, I might say "kill yourself" whilst laughing, I don't really know how to explain what it means, because it has no meaning, its like telling them to shut up. If someone is going around telling someone to kill themselves, like GENUINELY meaning it, then sure, report them and get them a punishment, but if you are driving past and hear someone tell their mate to kill themselves in a joking way and take offence, maybe you should just turn your computer off.

TLDR

Instead of banning "kill yourself" just make it context based, if someone is saying it in a joking way and don't actually mean it and it offends you,  ask them to stop, if they continue, report them. Simple as.

Edited by hrxvey
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1 hour ago, tuffy said:

this is just cap I am black and I have been playing video games for years ive had the worse insult/slurs thown at me and it doesnt make me a difference because im not soft and i feed off of negativity if someone calls me a dumb black im just going to fire back at him

Im not talking about the N words, I don’t care about that kind of insults too but its for the people who feel very soft and that times when life gets harder for them and they can’t handle it, not saying that black people have a hard life in outside world, you’re just turning my words towards yourself.

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2 hours ago, tuffy said:

this is just cap I am black and I have been playing video games for years ive had the worse insult/slurs thown at me and it doesnt make me a difference because im not soft and i feed off of negativity if someone calls me a dumb black im just going to fire back at him

Yeah but see here is the thing, it's a roleplay community, not a cod lobby. You shouldn't be put in a position where you are having to defend yourself because of your skin colour in the first place.

I get you aren't "soft" and that's great, for you, but at the same time, other people are more sensitive to that kind of language and you have to make rules based on the community, not on whether someone can argue back. 

 

KYS being a shit-talk phrase is one of the reasons that it shouldn't be used. It's internet jargon but your character in Eclipse isn't on the internet, they're in person. I don't remember watching a single piece of media where when a cop was arresting someone, the perp turned around and told them to kill themselves. They'd use racist or homophobic language, sure, but telling someone to kill themselves in Eclipse is a meta-term. I'm not saying it happens but to me, that isn't a realistic portrayal. Neither is a gang member going up to another gang member after shooting him and telling him to "get clapped retard".

I'm certainly not going to back a community that thinks people with mental health issues shouldn't be playing the game, or in fact those by extension that are offended by racism or homophobia or transphobia shouldn't play the game, just so some little edge lord can feel better about getting to people on an OOC level. 

Ultimately, what are you giving up here? The ability to tell someone to kill themselves. That's not a big ask at all is it?

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