Air 1/Alpha

[PapiTheSaint]

Ok so let me start by saying I have a cop char which has hundreds of hours on Eclipse, and a criminal char that has tens of hours. I think for this reason I can make this suggestion from an unbiased position for real change to be made to improve this particular aspect of the game for all parties. So i'll start with the catalyst of why i'm making this post, on a handful of occasions over the last week or two myself or friends on crim have been 'Spotted by AIR-1 or Alpha' recklessly operating their vehicles - PD or SD then proceed to roll several cruisers into the area of this vehicle and stop them in a very 'biased' way. For example the entrance to integrity apartments, its a one way in one way out situation - I dropped some friends off and went to leave to find my exit blocked by several PD cruisers. Now I really am ok in losing, it happens a lot cause I cant drive very well (Lol) and I do not want ANYONE to face punishments OOCly or ICly for what happened there. However It made me think specifically of how that situation could have differed, so my proposed solution is simply a Faction rule for PD/SD that the air units can only be used to maintain visual and organise ground units. Helicopters can't always be heard meaning its incredibly difficult to know you've been spotted by a heli doing something 'illegal' like reckless and then a few minutes later being boxed in by cruisers with little to no chance to run/evade. This new way could have a helicopter spotting some vehicles driving unsafely and coordinating units to the scene and then being seen by ground units doing stupid shit and being arrested for it.

I REALLY WANT TO REITERATE THAT I DO NOT MIND LOSING.

In real life it makes total sense for a helicopter to see illegal things happening and coordinating units etc and having enough video proof for charges to be placed - I get this completely. However, in a game like the one we play we need to give everyone a fairly even playing ground to allow people the chance to win, or lose from a fair (ish) standing point. I think the new changes I have proposed will benefit the server massively, and lets be honest who doesnt love a nice pursuit, both on Police side and criminal side - its fun and will happen more if situations like the one above dont happen (I would like to point out i was given very lenient charges which I feel maybe was because the cops on scene felt that i had no real way out of the situation and im grateful for it)

Please let me know what you think on this - If you have any changes to my proposed solution, like I said i see this from both perspectives and I really do think it will improve things, rather than make them worse.

[Jorge Compass]

I mean heli's are used to develop a further perspective of a situation, they should not really be limited as you said in regard to a faction rule being implemented that prevents helis from being used to spot people driving recklessly. Heli's are incredibly easy to hear, especially if you turn your engine off for a second.

[hrxvey]

I must admit, getting followed by a heli like that has to be the most boring experience I think that I've ever had on ECRP. I don't think an OOC rule that harsh should be put in, however I don't agree that helis should be able to follow random people around and just hand out speeding tickets like that. I think that for any other reason, for example getting a higher viewpoint to assess a situation is completely reasonable and it makes crims think a bit more about how they are going to conduct certain things, however purely to put someone in a cell for 15 minuets and take their license for a further 24hours is just boring for the player driving and has no real impact on the heli driver at all. (please don't turn this into a massive crim/pd argument or I will be forced to call in reinforcements in the form of bradford residents)

[Requiem]

I will weigh in as someone in PD with 150+ hours as a heli pilot. I can personally say when I fly, I may see someone speeding, but I never use speed alone as a reason to give someone something like reckless operation. I always ensure I see them breaking multiple traffic laws such as speeding + driving in the incorrect lane + illegal u-turns, etc. At that point, I ask for a unit to come and assist and pull the person over. To NOT do so as an officer witnessing a someone endangering the public with the incredibly reckless driving would be NRP from my standpoint. I don't think its fair to ask someone else to avoid certain RP or let people do what they want simply for "fun" or because of game balance, especially when it promotes poor RP from one side. If you are going to drive unlawfully/recklessly through what should be considered a heavily populated city, you should be well prepared for the consequences. Regardless of whether a heli sees you driving like a maniac or you stumble across a ground patrol unit seeing the same behavior, shouldn't have any difference in the outcome. 

Overall TL;DR -1 to the suggestion. It would be NRP/unrealistic for a LEO to not act on seeing someone driving recklessly. There are already IC factors to consider for issues citations/charges. If it wouldn't stick in court, the charge shouldn't be placed. If an officer is placing citations they shouldn't, they can be IC IA reported for misconduct. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Bill Breacher

[MrDisciple]

Big +1

Let's remind ourselves that when criminals loose they loose hours of their IRL time. Also, we play Eclipse for fun. Everyone drives recklessly (breaking multiple traffic laws). I mean all you gotta do is not yield, go slightly into the wrong lane and speed. Who doesn't do that when no one's around.

Helis should only be used to provide further prospective and assistance. Instead of purposefully looking for gang affiliated vehicles to catch them "recklessly" driving as an excuse for ground units to search them. All you've done is ruined that players experience on the server.

Note: Helis can be heard but it's not as loud as a cars roaring engine. Also game sounds have heli noises all the time.

[hrxvey]

Is it not somewhat NRP for a heli just to be flying around purely because it has insanely good fuel on ecrp? cos realistically, as far as im aware police only deploy helis when they have to due to the insane cost of the fuel etc. (if im wrong please do correct me).

[Requiem]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:46 PM, hrxvey said:

Is it not somewhat NRP for a heli just to be flying around purely because it has insanely good fuel on ecrp? cos realistically, as far as im aware police only deploy helis when they have to due to the insane cost of the fuel etc. (if im wrong please do correct me).

Small police depts do not have normal air patrols, but departments in large cities such as LAPD (the dept LSPD RPs) have regular helicopter patrols. If you research online a bit, you will see members of LAPD saying they have heli's not only supporting operations, but flying around for regular surveillance on a normal basis as well. 

[TheCactus]

On 10/31/2022 at 1:28 PM, Bill Breacher said:

I will weigh in as someone in PD with 150+ hours as a heli pilot. I can personally say when I fly, I may see someone speeding, but I never use speed alone as a reason to give someone something like reckless operation. I always ensure I see them breaking multiple traffic laws such as speeding + driving in the incorrect lane + illegal u-turns, etc. At that point, I ask for a unit to come and assist and pull the person over. To NOT do so as an officer witnessing a someone endangering the public with the incredibly reckless driving would be NRP from my standpoint. I don't think its fair to ask someone else to avoid certain RP or let people do what they want simply for "fun" or because of game balance, especially when it promotes poor RP from one side. If you are going to drive unlawfully/recklessly through what should be considered a heavily populated city, you should be well prepared for the consequences. Regardless of whether a heli sees you driving like a maniac or you stumble across a ground patrol unit seeing the same behavior, shouldn't have any difference in the outcome. 

Overall TL;DR -1 to the suggestion. It would be NRP/unrealistic for a LEO to not act on seeing someone driving recklessly. There are already IC factors to consider for issues citations/charges. If it wouldn't stick in court, the charge shouldn't be placed. If an officer is placing citations they shouldn't, they can be IC IA reported for misconduct. 

I agree with what it has been said in this as I have been a pilot for 2+ years myself. We never call out a vehicle only for speeding unless we can barely keep up when going 170+. If you break a traffic law, a cruiser may spot you if it's in the area. If you drive like a complete maniac, a helicopter may spot you if it's in the area.
A helicopter is not going to get you a citation for going 100/110 because it's hard to determine your speed but it may follow you to see if you do something wrong.

Helicopters can barely see cars and are not going to see motorcycles after 1200ft so you are able to hear them if you turn the engine off. If you think a heli is following you, there's multiple ways to make it so they can't get you for anything but I am not going to say it here for everyone to know
 

[Bala]

On 11/11/2022 at 10:46 PM, hrxvey said:

Is it not somewhat NRP for a heli just to be flying around purely because it has insanely good fuel on ecrp? cos realistically, as far as im aware police only deploy helis when they have to due to the insane cost of the fuel etc. (if im wrong please do correct me).

Is it not somewhat NRP to be driving the top speed of your vehicle on what would be heavily populated streets?
We all make certain sacrifices of realism because it's a game. 

The PD air unit is chilling on a roof top half the time somewhere anyway, so it's not a constant patrol of the sky.

[MrDisciple]

@TheCactus @Bala The relevance of hearing Xray is out the question. Your acting as if this suggestion is to get rid of X-Ray. It's not at all... Let's stay focused.

Using the OP resource of Xray to pull a green car over because you knows it's Irish with guns shouldn't be a thing. And that's what I and many others had to deal with. This as you can imagine ruins our experience and stops us from creating actual RP opertunitys that PD can get involved in like chases or shootouts. Criminal players are leaving the server more and more, how bout give us a break and let us comit the crime before arresting us? Cuz if I spawn in with a .50 and get in my paragon, I shouldn't be paying ridiculous impound fees, gun charge fees and 2hours of AFK cuz a cop saw me.

The suggestion is to stop using Xray for the purpose of intentionally looking for gang affiliated vehicles to catch them "recklessly" driving as an excuse for ground units to search them. Crims can drive at 80 and yield at ever light to prevent this but it is painful. PD themselves drive round at speeds of 80 to 100 in the city without yielding.

EDIT: If Xray sees a vehicle recklessly driving, a unit should be called to confirm this by also catching them. XRay don't have to turn a blind eye but they themselves shouldn't be confirming recklessness so you can search and force us into an AFK box.

Edited November 21, 2022 by MrDisciple

[hrxvey]

42 minutes ago, MrDisciple said:

Using the OP resource of Xray to pull a green car over because you knows it's Irish with guns shouldn't be a thing.

just don't carry a gun unless you need to, ez counter to this. 

[Curtins]

nah real issue is more than 1 highspeed on a chase happens all the time to mee where i see more than 1 Jug/drafter joining in on the pursuit and honestly find it extremely unrealistic

[hrxvey]

10 minutes ago, Curtins said:

i see more than 1 Jug/drafter

drafter is arse anyway, please use it more @pd 

[Cyrus Raven]

10 minutes ago, Curtins said:

nah real issue is more than 1 highspeed on a chase happens all the time to mee where i see more than 1 Jug/drafter joining in on the pursuit and honestly find it extremely unrealistic

I think we should stay away from the realism argument. Limiting high-speed to 1 per vehicle being pursued is a good idea from a game balance perspective.

[Requiem]

On 11/21/2022 at 4:05 PM, MrDisciple said:

@TheCactus @Bala The relevance of hearing Xray is out the question. Your acting as if this suggestion is to get rid of X-Ray. It's not at all... Let's stay focused.

Using the OP resource of Xray to pull a green car over because you knows it's Irish with guns shouldn't be a thing. And that's what I and many others had to deal with. This as you can imagine ruins our experience and stops us from creating actual RP opertunitys that PD can get involved in like chases or shootouts. Criminal players are leaving the server more and more, how bout give us a break and let us comit the crime before arresting us? Cuz if I spawn in with a .50 and get in my paragon, I shouldn't be paying ridiculous impound fees, gun charge fees and 2hours of AFK cuz a cop saw me.

The suggestion is to stop using Xray for the purpose of intentionally looking for gang affiliated vehicles to catch them "recklessly" driving as an excuse for ground units to search them. Crims can drive at 80 and yield at ever light to prevent this but it is painful. PD themselves drive round at speeds of 80 to 100 in the city without yielding.

EDIT: If Xray sees a vehicle recklessly driving, a unit should be called to confirm this by also catching them. XRay don't have to turn a blind eye but they themselves shouldn't be confirming recklessness so you can search and force us into an AFK box.

I'm sorry but this is cap. You are asking police to not do their job and to ignore crims and let them do crime for the sake of their fun and for the server. This is an RP server. You are legit asking cops to ignore faction duties and break NRP rules. 

On 11/22/2022 at 12:10 PM, Curtins said:

nah real issue is more than 1 highspeed on a chase happens all the time to mee where i see more than 1 Jug/drafter joining in on the pursuit and honestly find it extremely unrealistic

 

On 11/22/2022 at 12:23 PM, Cyrus Raven said:

I think we should stay away from the realism argument. Limiting high-speed to 1 per vehicle being pursued is a good idea from a game balance perspective.

This is already a PD internal policy as it is. Only one jug gets deployed per pursuit. Only time you MIGHT see more than one, is if SD and PD are in the same pursuit and both have one. Even then, normally one department will put one away if thats the case. The drafter is allowed to be out, but its booty. The normal cruisers easily outperform it. 

[Diego_Montoya]

I think there needs to be certain limits to a heli. A few months ago I was part of aa hostage situation. A cop was held at gun point and I was called ever by the hostage to pick up a duffle bag and hide it. He stated that if I were followed he would kill the officer. I found a place to hide the bag and looked around couldn't see or hear a heli. Which was clearly flying at the top of the map. SO if you ask me that NRP along with the fact that that officer was clearly endangering the hostages life. I think heli  should have a height limit. 

[Dakota14]

To not hear a helicopter, it really only needs to go up to about 3000ft. That's not the top of the map. 

[Puzzling]

I didn't really read most of this if I'm being honest, but my biggest thing that would fix Air-1/Alpha would just lower the amount of fuel it has so it has to refuel. It can obviously come back out after refueling but it makes a chance to escape since the sewers are still closed, makes the ground units have to pay more attention and not lose VC and rely on the heli. Heli pilots can still be very skilled and make it count with less fuel.

[TheCactus]

On 10/22/2022 at 2:45 PM, hrxvey said:

I must admit, getting followed by a heli like that has to be the most boring experience I think that I've ever had on ECRP. I don't think an OOC rule that harsh should be put in, however I don't agree that helis should be able to follow random people around and just hand out speeding tickets like that. I think that for any other reason, for example getting a higher viewpoint to assess a situation is completely reasonable and it makes crims think a bit more about how they are going to conduct certain things, however purely to put someone in a cell for 15 minuets and take their license for a further 24hours is just boring for the player driving and has no real impact on the heli driver at all. (please don't turn this into a massive crim/pd argument or I will be forced to call in reinforcements in the form of bradford residents)

They don't follow random people tho, do they? If you get followed, it's because you were doing something completely illegal. They won't follow you if you go 130 but they definitely will if you go over 170-180 in the city because it starts to feel hard to keep up with that car until you reach 200+

This argument has been made several times and the response doesn't change, obviously. As I have said last time, there are multiple ways to make it so you can't get charged after a heli saw you driving like a complete maniac. It's really not that hard.

On 5/3/2023 at 9:15 PM, Diego_Montoya said:

I think there needs to be certain limits to a heli. A few months ago I was part of aa hostage situation. A cop was held at gun point and I was called ever by the hostage to pick up a duffle bag and hide it. He stated that if I were followed he would kill the officer. I found a place to hide the bag and looked around couldn't see or hear a heli. Which was clearly flying at the top of the map. SO if you ask me that NRP along with the fact that that officer was clearly endangering the hostages life. I think heli  should have a height limit. 

After about 1300ft it's almost impossible to see cars from a heli and you will hear the heli if you just pay attention (engine off and increase volume) if it is at 800-1300ft. They will not see you from 1300ft if you're on foot unless he's got snipers aiming at you but you would still be able to hear it.
 

Quote

The relevance of hearing Xray is out the question. Your acting as if this suggestion is to get rid of X-Ray. It's not at all... Let's stay focused.

Using the OP resource of Xray to pull a green car over because you knows it's Irish with guns shouldn't be a thing. And that's what I and many others had to deal with. This as you can imagine ruins our experience and stops us from creating actual RP opertunitys that PD can get involved in like chases or shootouts. Criminal players are leaving the server more and more, how bout give us a break and let us comit the crime before arresting us? Cuz if I spawn in with a .50 and get in my paragon, I shouldn't be paying ridiculous impound fees, gun charge fees and 2hours of AFK cuz a cop saw me.

The suggestion is to stop using Xray for the purpose of intentionally looking for gang affiliated vehicles to catch them "recklessly" driving as an excuse for ground units to search them. Crims can drive at 80 and yield at ever light to prevent this but it is painful. PD themselves drive round at speeds of 80 to 100 in the city without yielding.

EDIT: If Xray sees a vehicle recklessly driving, a unit should be called to confirm this by also catching them. XRay don't have to turn a blind eye but they themselves shouldn't be confirming recklessness so you can search and force us into an AFK box.

@MrDisciple I don't know what acting you're talking about. I answered a question, displayed our point of view as police officers and pilots and even gave a tip. If you were a pilot you would know there is no need for restrictions, considering all the points I am mentioning and the time you need before you can be an effective pilot.
If your green car is getting followed, it's because the driver is doing something illegal / completely stupid.
Solution: don't drive extremely fast. Color or not, you are still breaking the law. If you think the color is the problem then change it. I am not forcing you to drive a green car and no one is forcing you to drive 200+ through the city.
There's no way you can determine what kind of car it is from 1000ft. A scout looks just like any hatchback and you could easily say it is an Issi Sport while it's actually a Rebla so I can't determine your gang affiliation from the clouds.

Now that I read the whole thing I even regret answering but whatever.
"Criminal players are leaving the server more and more, how bout give us a break and let us comit the crime before arresting us?" This isn't the place to cry, man.
So we should just close our eyes and ignore what you do by your own volition? I have to pull out the "if you do the crime, do the time" card here.
You choose to drive 200 just like you choose to shoot, rob a bank or play crim. No one is forcing you to do any of that but you pay the price if you do. Driving 200 in the city makes 0 sense if you have no reason to do it but if you do it and you get caught, at least take it like a champ.

This is 700ft. What's the model of that white car in weazel news employee parking lot? Can you also tell if he/she/it is gang affiliated?
You do see how stupid that sounds?



To sum it up don't drive like a nutter or use your brains if you do drive over 150 and you'll be fine. I do speed a lot too, you know? Like the 240 type of speeding and I don't think it's unbalanced considering everything I mentioned. In addition to that:
- only one police heli can fly in each jurisdiction;
- you can do whatever you want if you see that there's an ongoing pursuit or traffic stop with a heli;
- sometimes there are no pilots on-duty.

Edited May 11, 2023 by TheCactus